Hey delta guys

[JUNK YARD DOG]

Heard a rumor the other day, that there is a petition for a vote to kick ALPA to the curb, and replace with in house union.... Any truth to this? If this is true, and does happen, it would look real bad for Moak..

 

[LearLove]

http://www.delta-pilots.org/

 

[General Lee]

Heard a rumor the other day, that there is a petition for a vote to kick ALPA to the curb, and replace with in house union.... Any truth to this? If this is true, and does happen, it would look real bad for Moak..

The DPA was grown out of frustration. There are a few thousand members now (out of 12K pilots), and it seems to be growing, slowly. I don't know if it will survive, but I think it has caught the eye of ALPA and DALPA, and they do need to realize that they (DALPA) need to focus on the DL pilots' careers and enhancements, and not the RJ pilots'.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

The DPA was grown out of frustration. There are a few thousand members now (out of 12K pilots), and it seems to be growing, slowly. I don't know if it will survive, but I think it has caught the eye of ALPA and DALPA, and they do need to realize that they (DALPA) need to focus on the DL pilots' careers and enhancements, and not the RJ pilots'.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Typical DALPA response. I've never seen the conflict of interest -
Maybe if delta would stop selling all their flying out- there wouldn't be multiple groups to represent. Look in the mirror on that General- take a good look at the source of your problems.

 

[redflyer65]

(DALPA) need to focus on the DL pilots' careers and enhancements, and not the RJ pilots'.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Now that's funny. Good luck with that..

 

[jynxyjericho]

Absolutely

Delta drops ALPA, the other majors fall off as well. ALPA is simply left as a legal office which everyone still uses. ALPA national can't afford to continue running with income from the regionals, the regionals are forced to either give up considerably more of their income to ALPA, or drop them. Since regional guys are broke to begin with, they drop ALPA.

1 year later, a new wave of outsourcing begins, unity is completely dead (not just on life support like it is now), scope is relaxed once again for bigger raises.

5 years later, Delta guys still blame the RJ pilots for all their problems, RJ pilots step up to Airbus 320's and 737's.

20 years later, Mainline anything is gone, RJ pilots do their best to rebuilt the union, try not to make the mistakes of the past, things are so terrible we finally subscribe to a national seniority list.

50 years later, things are almost back to what they were in '00. Gen-2k sells out scope for bigger raises, destroys everything worked for so far.

Rinse repeat

Delta, drop ALPA at the peril of us all. We either hang together, or we shall hang separately.

 

[clippyrip]

Delta drops ALPA, the other majors fall off as well. ALPA is simply left as a legal office which everyone still uses. ALPA national can't afford to continue running with income from the regionals, the regionals are forced to either give up considerably more of their income to ALPA, or drop them. Since regional guys are broke to begin with, they drop ALPA.

1 year later, a new wave of outsourcing begins, unity is completely dead (not just on life support like it is now), scope is relaxed once again for bigger raises.

5 years later, Delta guys still blame the RJ pilots for all their problems, RJ pilots step up to Airbus 320's and 737's.

20 years later, Mainline anything is gone, RJ pilots do their best to rebuilt the union, try not to make the mistakes of the past, things are so terrible we finally subscribe to a national seniority list.

50 years later, things are almost back to what they were in '00. Gen-2k sells out scope for bigger raises, destroys everything worked for so far.

Rinse repeat

Delta, drop ALPA at the peril of us all. We either hang together, or we shall hang separately.

Scare tactics. So much fun to listen to!

 

[clippyrip]

Typical DALPA response. I've never seen the conflict of interest -
Maybe if delta would stop selling all their flying out- there wouldn't be multiple groups to represent. Look in the mirror on that General- take a good look at the source of your problems.

That was not a DALPA response at all.

 

[Raoul Duke]

Dropping ALPO is a great idea

 

[Full of LUV]

Dropping ALPO is a great idea

Really, is that your reasoning.... because you like to make fun of the name? Really, would there be anything close to it to replace it, or is each group really only to think only about themselves without even a national union or org that ties the majority of pilots together.
ALPA thrown out may not be armageddon immediately, but over time, there would be much less cooperation and coordination of the individual unions. Each would do what they had to do to survive and potentially thrive, including the regionals. If you don't think the RAH pilots wouldn't accept flying a 320 at their RJ rates, your nuts. Just look at the Skywest pilots, size doesn't matter, at least for pay.

OK, back to calling them ALPO, what's funny is ALPA is whoever is elected from your pilot group to run the LEC and MEC. Do you have a beef with ALPA national or your own pilot group Raoul?

 

[Raoul Duke]

Oh my gosh, you mean if ALPO was gone, there would be competitoin? Mainline carriers could work actively against regionals? How terrible.

 

[Full of LUV]

Oh my gosh, you mean if ALPO was gone, there would be competitoin? Mainline carriers could work actively against regionals? How terrible.

No I think if ALPA was gone, each group would exist only for itself. At it's extreme, scope would go away as each existing group just insulated it's own job as the company shrank, the ladder would just pull up until the regionals continually regenerated through BK and rebirth.
If you really want all out competition then why not do away with seniority lists? I mean the pilots who perform the best at your company should be the captains, right? If a captain makes a mistake, he should be instantly downgraded or replaced with fresh blood. In fact, true competition would say why not keep pilots only a decade or so, because if that were the norm or tolerated by the group, don't think for an instant that all companies wouldn't go to that model, but Im sure a younger guy can do your job cheaper?

Actually if I were god, I would give ALPA more power to state to the companies this is the minimum it takes to pay a crew to operate a 7X7 etc and let the companies work on work rules and other perks to attract labor. If pilot labor costs were more a fixed cost, they wouldn't be seen as the only way to cheaply start up an airline, or in SWA's case be in startup mode for over 20 years.

But your only interested in calling ALPA ALPO, and have no interest in piloting as a profession, just what's in it for you, today. By the way, 97% of ALPA is individual pilot groups, so ALPO was YOU!

 

[Full of LUV]

Oh my gosh, you mean if ALPO was gone, there would be competitoin? Mainline carriers could work actively against regionals? How terrible.

Regionals are created and used by majors for one reason, because they are CHEAPER. If any major could get their pilots to allow scope to allow SKY West or RAH to fly 747's, they'd do it the next week and never look back, and the regional pilots would do it for $1 more an hour and say they have no choice.

Why on earth would majors work against regionals, they are their creation a way around pilot contracts that were richer than was required for the type of work that could be easily contracted out and was.

Think about the year before scope was allowed, when AA paid a pilot north of $100K to fly a folker jet around the country and Delta opened up scope to COMAIR who ran a school where people were PAYING CASH MONEY for the exact same type of job that paid 1/4 the salary. That disparity in labor price could not stand forever. ALPA was obviously a decade behind the curve on recognizing the danger of scope relief and once the horse has left the barn, she's kept running and not looked back.

This is why Mgmt is in such a commanding position overall. With 1/2 their ASM's at contractors who can constantly be wanked around for a better price, all they have to focus on negotiating is the 1/2 on their list and try to constantly chip into that number with some raises now and then.

Best of luck to the whole profession, but in the absence of any other union even trying to speak for the profession, with out ALPA, the pay would be even further depressed to actual market rates.

 

[Redmeat]

The simple logical truth of the matter is that a single union cannot represent two separate groups within a single company when they are competing for the same work. Plain and simple...

One of the groups is going to lose. Explain to me how one union can honestly operate under the intent of doing the absolute very best for the group it represents under these circumstances?

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Typical DALPA response. I've never seen the conflict of interest -
Maybe if delta would stop selling all their flying out- there wouldn't be multiple groups to represent. Look in the mirror on that General- take a good look at the source of your problems.

Wave,

Go peddle your anti-alpa crap on another board....don't you have some regional buddies you can go and circle-jerk?

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

DPA is a joke....Plain and simple....No alternative other than "We can do better!".....yeah, sure pal...

Born from some crybaby 01 hire F/O who thinks he got screwed.

No plan, no new ideas, no vote from me.......

 

[DGdaPilot]

Every property has an anti-whatever group. Even the APA has one. The one at Eagle is a joke too.

 

[waveflyer]

Wave,

Go peddle your anti-alpa crap on another board....don't you have some regional buddies you can go and circle-jerk?

I do have regional buddies- no desire to jerk any of them - circle method or not- and be careful- there are a lot of your brothers who had unanticipated RJ careers.

In this case though- I agree with you-
ALPAs not the problem- it's the individuals involved and their stupidity, greed, and short sightedness -
And the problem is guys like you who vote to outsource more flying for a penny and vote republican bc their well paid alpa contract gets taxed too much-
But I am a big alpa supporter- just think those at the top can and ought to do better

 

[Full of LUV]

The simple logical truth of the matter is that a single union cannot represent two separate groups within a single company when they are competing for the same work. Plain and simple...

One of the groups is going to lose. Explain to me how one union can honestly operate under the intent of doing the absolute very best for the group it represents under these circumstances?

I would agree in essence unless ALPA made it plainly clear in it's national platform that scope at 55/70 seats or whatever is non negotiable. If they are telling the regionals we'll help you get more flying and then telling the majors we're here to hold the line on scope, well of course that's conflict.

Ultimately though, regionals will always have wage pressure due to the constant RFI process and ability for the majors to easily switch flying around. In essence the regionals have absolutely no scope, not even a brand identity to protect.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

An independent union and the downfall of ALPA is probably one of the dumbest things things this industry can do. Yes, ALPA has some warts, but at the end of the day unity of ALPA's level is needed for what is over the next hill or two. A group of independents will never have the power of ALPA. Plain and simple.

We cannot get the next events wrong, and trying to complete the power building of independents is not what we need to be focusing on.

 

[clippyrip]

What unity? ALPA is an association of independent unions. Half of which have a conflict of interest with the other half.

 

[generaltso]

The bottom line is, regardless of DPA or DALPA/ALPA, it's up to the Delta Pilots to hold the line on scope.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Clippy, then you do not understand one of the basic tenants of unionism. Reality is, if we divide in to fractured independents, things will not go well for the profession. The simple reason the grass appears greener at the independents is twofold. First, is you are looking at the last five year, not the entire history, and two, many of these independents gain from the work ALPA has done.

APA and Dave Bates see the benefit of working with ALPA, and I will venture to guess that some time in the no-so-distant future other independents will as well.

 

[400ADude]

The bottom line is, regardless of DPA or DALPA/ALPA, it's up to the Delta Pilots to hold the line on scope.

Well they sure have done that haven't they.:laugh:

 

[clippyrip]

Clippy, then you do not understand one of the basic tenants of unionism. Reality is, if we divide in to fractured independents, things will not go well for the profession. The simple reason the grass appears greener at the independents is twofold. First, is you are looking at the last five year, not the entire history, and two, many of these independents gain from the work ALPA has done.

Scare tactics are so much fun!


ALPA is an association of independent unions. We are not all one union with the same goal. That is a big problem. If one of the regionals in that association makes a gain such as bigger aircraft or more flying, that gain is made at the expense of the mainline it serves. And vise versa. Explain how unity will solve that problem.

 

[Full of LUV]

Scare tactics are so much fun!


ALPA is an association of independent unions. We are not all one union with the same goal. That is a big problem. If one of the regionals in that association makes a gain such as bigger aircraft or more flying, that gain is made at the expense of the mainline it serves. And vise versa. Explain how unity will solve that problem.

Maybe not united on scope, but maybe even a majority of RJ pilots realize that holding the line on scope is important for the future of the profession and pay rates.

ALPA will be there in a united front when Air India or Russia propose a new regional airline based in the US that will pay pilots $50 per day plus housing and argue for the immigration of such pilots because of the lack of US pilots (willing to do the job for that much).
Scope is but one threat to the industry, albeit the one that has taken the biggest chunk over the last 15 years.

And before I hear the "it can't happen because of foreign ownership laws or cabotage", who do you think has the most vested in keeping those laws?
Also, I know the chinese, Indians, and russians are short of qualified pilots now, but if the steady cash is there, don't you think with over 3billion people to pull from they might be able to find a few thousand 12 yr olds to spend the next 10 years immersed in aviation and english? The threat is out there, many other industries have been outsourced, and not just to cheaper americans.

 

[Full of LUV]

Scare tactics are so much fun!


ALPA is an association of independent unions. We are not all one union with the same goal. That is a big problem. If one of the regionals in that association makes a gain such as bigger aircraft or more flying, that gain is made at the expense of the mainline it serves. And vise versa. Explain how unity will solve that problem.

ALPA needs to better explain to the RJ drivers that bigger aircraft is not their answer, more pay and benefits and work rules for the ones they are currently flying is the key. Make the regional industry much closer to the mainline they serve in terms of labor treatment.

 

[PapaWoody]

DPA is a joke....Plain and simple....No alternative other than "We can do better!".....yeah, sure pal...

Born from some crybaby 01 hire F/O who thinks he got screwed.

No plan, no new ideas, no vote from me.......

That crybaby 2000 hire F/O, Tim Caplinger, who just happens to be my best friend, is at least trying to do something about the cancer on the industry and Delta itself that is ALPA and their policy of playing on both sides. He doesn't think he got screwed, he knows he got screwed, and the rest of you too when ALPA started representing the regional airlines that are taking away your flying. It's not about any personal agenda, it's about making Delta a better place to work and Delta pilots looking after Delta pilots, not subsidizing regionals. If you knew the guy, you would know he is a selfless, motivated hard worker trying to improve his and your career. But since you don't know him, you badmouth him on an anonymous board. Further proof that you're an ***********************************.

PW

 

[outsidethecloud]

That crybaby 2000 hire F/O, Tim Caplinger, who just happens to be my best friend, is at least trying to do something about the cancer on the industry and Delta itself that is ALPA and their policy of playing on both sides. He doesn't think he got screwed, he knows he got screwed, and the rest of you too when ALPA started representing the regional airlines that are taking away your flying. It's not about any personal agenda, it's about making Delta a better place to work and Delta pilots looking after Delta pilots, not subsidizing regionals. If you knew the guy, you would know he is a selfless, motivated hard worker trying to improve his and your career. But since you don't know him, you badmouth him on an anonymous board. Further proof that you're an ***********************************.

PW

I don't remember any major airline manager or pilot ever coming to us lowly regional folks and giving us a vote to relax your scope!! And no I don't want bigger aircraft at the regionals. When I grew up, majors flew a 34 seat turboprop.

 

[ExAF]

1999 Hire

That crybaby 2000 hire F/O, Tim Caplinger, who just happens to be my best friend, is at least trying to do something about the cancer on the industry and Delta itself that is ALPA and their policy of playing on both sides.

He's actually a 1999 hire and is not a crybaby. PW's right...he really is one of the good guys irregardless of how you feel about ALPA/DALPA OR DPA.