Hey delta guys

[JAM-BRO]

ACL, all I am saying is ALPA is unchangeable. In your case, there was another election where the ALPA "Boys Club" wanted to do their usual musical chairs routine and keep one of their own in a "position" as a "job well done" gift. Someone got a whiff of it and exposed the whole thing and described how it was gonna happen. Did the outing detract them??? No!! They went ahead and did it. Another "In your Face" maneuver within ALPA. Everything the MEC did was contrary to what had always been done. Held an early election, did not allow new MEC members to vote, etc.. Now we have a critical committee represented by 3 captains and no fo's. The comittee needed you. An unselfish rep, who puts the profession and the pilot group's interets first. Can you say the same for the CA that beat you by one vote? That being his own deciding vote!!! When I see these things happen, I lose faith in ALPA. You may be right about DPA not being able to fix our problems, but ALPA has to change from within and what surprises me most is that more pilots are not pushing for change.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

ACL, all I am saying is ALPA is unchangeable. In your case, there was another election where the ALPA "Boys Club" wanted to do their usual musical chairs routine and keep one of their own in a "position" as a "job well done" gift. Someone got a whiff of it and exposed the whole thing and described how it was gonna happen. Did the outing detract them??? No!! They went ahead and did it. Another "In your Face" maneuver within ALPA. Everything the MEC did was contrary to what had always been done. Held an early election, did not allow new MEC members to vote, etc.. Now we have a critical committee represented by 3 captains and no fo's. The committee needed you. An unselfish rep, who puts the profession and the pilot group's interest first. Can you say the same for the CA that beat you by one vote? That being his own deciding vote!!! When I see these things happen, I lose faith in ALPA. You may be right about DPA not being able to fix our problems, but ALPA has to change from within and what surprises me most is that more pilots are not pushing for change.

Thank you for the kinds words. In the end it is about what is best for the gander and not this goose. That has always been my litmus test.

Let me state again, you have issues with the people in ALPA not the structure. If you have these issues, change the people. That seems to be happening abet slowly. The fact is that no one has really done a concerted effort within ALPA to change many of the gripes that you and DPA state. A resolution here or there is a good stress test to the willingness of the current reps, but it is not an end game. Focused effort is what is needed. If anything, use the angst that many people have and focus it in a direction that will have success. I have no issue with that and welcome it.

 

[Speedtape]

A question to ponder:

If ALPA, the collective bargaining agent for Delta pilots, is voted out, what then happens to the CBA that has a multi-year history of pattern bargaining and serves as the foundation of your professional pay and work rules?

Maybe, DPA should enlighten you on that, if they even know. Do you really want to start from square one?

ACL65 has the best idea. Harness the energy, and leverage a well defined agenda to force your MEC to work for you. They will listen to 2400 pilots who are all on the same page.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

A question to ponder:

If ALPA, the collective bargaining agent for Delta pilots, is voted out, what then happens to the CBA that has a multi-year history of pattern bargaining and serves as the foundation of your professional pay and work rules?

Maybe, DPA should enlighten you on that, if they even know. Do you really want to start from square one?

ACL65 has the best idea. Harness the energy, and leverage a well defined agenda to force your MEC to work for you. They will listen to 2400 pilots who are all on the same page.

I know the answer to that question.

To the statement: I have been saying that all along.

 

[JAM-BRO]

A question to ponder:

If ALPA, the collective bargaining agent for Delta pilots, is voted out, what then happens to the CBA that has a multi-year history of pattern bargaining and serves as the foundation of your professional pay and work rules?

Maybe, DPA should enlighten you on that, if they even know. Do you really want to start from square one?

ACL65 has the best idea. Harness the energy, and leverage a well defined agenda to force your MEC to work for you. They will listen to 2400 pilots who are all on the same page.

Our problems are not so much with DALPA, but also with National ALPA. Delta pilots put into ALPA's pot about $30M/yr in dues. Of that, we see maybe $10M in return in the way of benefits. The other $20M goes to subsidize the other groups that spend more than they put in. Something really wrong here. Maybe we should get a discount...

 

[DGdaPilot]

Our problems are not so much with DALPA, but also with National ALPA. Delta pilots put into ALPA's pot about $30M/yr in dues. Of that, we see maybe $10M in return in the way of benefits. The other $20M goes to subsidize the other groups that spend more than they put in. Something really wrong here. Maybe we should get a discount...

It's not just carriers who overspend. Most of the ALPA carriers with less than 2000 pilots would not be self-supporting on the 1.95% of dues they pay. This is where the concept of UNIONISM comes into play. You know, the big strong guys helping out the smaller, weaker ones.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Our problems are not so much with DALPA, but also with National ALPA. Delta pilots put into ALPA's pot about $30M/yr in dues. Of that, we see maybe $10M in return in the way of benefits. The other $20M goes to subsidize the other groups that spend more than they put in. Something really wrong here. Maybe we should get a discount...

This is truly a misnomer. 10 Million comes back to us, 24J provides about 6 million, and of the remaining money, 20 or so million is not returned to the MEC for their direct use.

What that 20 million is used for definitely goes towards Delta pilots. Do a few of the smaller carriers get some "benefit" of being part of ALPA with these in-house services? Yes, but the concept is that of strength in numbers. Every independent enjoys some benefit of ALPA being around. It is my opinion that the independents would not fair quite as well if ALPA ceased to exist.

What you the Delta Pilot get from that 20 or so million that funds the National Operation:
Our MEC has unfettered access to:
-Legal-Huge given our operation. Two of the ALPA staff attorneys work DAL issues full time. There are three others that work issues for us part of the time. This goes from Pilot Representation, to Legal Interpretation, to Section Six.

-The In house Media and Publication Shops.

-LEC Budgets on a per pilot basis

-Safety

-Legislative Officials through the standing relationships ALPA has forged though the years-Think of all of the issues we have had to fight on the hill.

-AeroMedical

-Professional Negotiators.- Yes, they are professional, and bar none, the best labor could every buy.

-EF and A- We want anything costed out, they do it as part of our dues. Plus all of the economic modeling that needs to be done on a constant basis. Notice how many LOA's we have had?

-Benefits Specialists- We have one full time benefits specialist that works here in ATL and a few that work up in DC. All paid for by our dues dollars that go to National.

There are some 40+ services that are provided by National that are paid for with every pilot group's dues money.

I could go on, but the point is that there are a great many things that we pay for with the dues money that goes to National. The idea or notion that this would be cheaper on the open market is absurd. Pooling 38 pilot groups' dues dollars allows each pilot group to have access to more services that they would if they had if they were to pay for them as an independent.

Go ask you APA friends if they have a Full Time Retirement and Insurance Chair, Safety, Strategic Planning, EA's etc, all part of 24J. Go ask them if they have unlimited access to a media center that can produce any medium they wish, whether it be video, print, or audio? Ask them if they have standing Media Classes, As them how much they pay in legal fees per year. Ask APA what they are paying for access to our Professional Negotiators and Seth? Ask them why they are getting access, and why if DALPA split we would not.

Point is that if someone actually took the time and realized what a legal retainer cost, what the hourly rates of a average firm (big ones would not take your work as they would not want to alienate their corporate clients), extrapolate that out for the hrs that are spent in a section six, a LOA, and pilot representations and you will quickly realize that the idea that will be cheaper is a misguided thought. The bueaty of unity is that not everyone is doing the same thing at the same time, and it keeps people working full time. As a result very good at what they do, because they are constantly doing it.

I did the research and realized that just because there are some issues that need fixing in ALPA, it does not mean we should do away with the structure or the organization. Like I have said, use the angst of 2000, organize within and fix what you desire to fix. If it turns out that the will of the remaining 10,000 pilots is not that of yours, then respect the representational democratic process. There are a many results that I have vehemently opposed, but the process took place, and my position was not that of the majority. Taking my toys and going home never solves anything, except to let the process go unchecked.

 

[Regul8r]

They will listen to 2400 pilots who are all on the same page.

No they won't, they'll buckle at the bargaining table while pissing and moaning that "It's the best we could do!!!"

 

[Smarta$$]

Delta drops ALPA, the other majors fall off as well. ALPA is simply left as a legal office which everyone still uses. ALPA national can't afford to continue running with income from the regionals, the regionals are forced to either give up considerably more of their income to ALPA, or drop them. Since regional guys are broke to begin with, they drop ALPA.

1 year later, a new wave of outsourcing begins, unity is completely dead (not just on life support like it is now), scope is relaxed once again for bigger raises.

5 years later, Delta guys still blame the RJ pilots for all their problems, RJ pilots step up to Airbus 320's and 737's.

20 years later, Mainline anything is gone, RJ pilots do their best to rebuilt the union, try not to make the mistakes of the past, things are so terrible we finally subscribe to a national seniority list.

50 years later, things are almost back to what they were in '00. Gen-2k sells out scope for bigger raises, destroys everything worked for so far.

Rinse repeat

Delta, drop ALPA at the peril of us all. We either hang together, or we shall hang separately.

This is a lot more true than the mouth breathers understand.

 

[Smarta$$]

This is truly a misnomer. 10 Million comes back to us, 24J provides about 6 million, and of the remaining money, 20 or so million is not returned to the MEC for their direct use.

What that 20 million is used for definitely goes towards Delta pilots. Do a few of the smaller carriers get some "benefit" of being part of ALPA with these in-house services? Yes, but the concept is that of strength in numbers. Every independent enjoys some benefit of ALPA being around. It is my opinion that the independents would not fair quite as well if ALPA ceased to exist.

What you the Delta Pilot get from that 20 or so million that funds the National Operation:
Our MEC has unfettered access to:
-Legal-Huge given our operation. Two of the ALPA staff attorneys work DAL issues full time. There are three others that work issues for us part of the time. This goes from Pilot Representation, to Legal Interpretation, to Section Six.

-The In house Media and Publication Shops.

-LEC Budgets on a per pilot basis

-Safety

-Legislative Officials through the standing relationships ALPA has forged though the years-Think of all of the issues we have had to fight on the hill.

-AeroMedical

-Professional Negotiators.- Yes, they are professional, and bar none, the best labor could every buy.

-EF and A- We want anything costed out, they do it as part of our dues. Plus all of the economic modeling that needs to be done on a constant basis. Notice how many LOA's we have had?

-Benefits Specialists- We have one full time benefits specialist that works here in ATL and a few that work up in DC. All paid for by our dues dollars that go to National.

There are some 40+ services that are provided by National that are paid for with every pilot group's dues money.

I could go on, but the point is that there are a great many things that we pay for with the dues money that goes to National. The idea or notion that this would be cheaper on the open market is absurd. Pooling 38 pilot groups' dues dollars allows each pilot group to have access to more services that they would if they had if they were to pay for them as an independent.

Go ask you APA friends if they have a Full Time Retirement and Insurance Chair, Safety, Strategic Planning, EA's etc, all part of 24J. Go ask them if they have unlimited access to a media center that can produce any medium they wish, whether it be video, print, or audio? Ask them if they have standing Media Classes, As them how much they pay in legal fees per year. Ask APA what they are paying for access to our Professional Negotiators and Seth? Ask them why they are getting access, and why if DALPA split we would not.

Point is that if someone actually took the time and realized what a legal retainer cost, what the hourly rates of a average firm (big ones would not take your work as they would not want to alienate their corporate clients), extrapolate that out for the hrs that are spent in a section six, a LOA, and pilot representations and you will quickly realize that the idea that will be cheaper is a misguided thought. The bueaty of unity is that not everyone is doing the same thing at the same time, and it keeps people working full time. As a result very good at what they do, because they are constantly doing it.

I did the research and realized that just because there are some issues that need fixing in ALPA, it does not mean we should do away with the structure or the organization. Like I have said, use the angst of 2000, organize within and fix what you desire to fix. If it turns out that the will of the remaining 10,000 pilots is not that of yours, then respect the representational democratic process. There are a many results that I have vehemently opposed, but the process took place, and my position was not that of the majority. Taking my toys and going home never solves anything, except to let the process go unchecked.

Superb clarity. Your a class act in all that you do ACL.

 

[Regul8r]

This is a lot more true than the mouth breathers understand.

but he left out the part about cats and dogs living together! Without ALPO, it'll be mass hysteria, people!!!

 

[asadonkey]

yet somehow SW does all this for HALF our dues and they make fine bank.

How about talking about what we pay moak and the gang up there in herndon? It just seems wrong that the secretary at my union makes more than me.

Our former fearless leader R.B. opens a consulting firm to help airlines negotiate against pilots. stepping on throats of regional pilots trying to make a livable wage?
That is brotherhood, but wait.....we are gonna get better rest rules now LOL

IT sickens me to see my $$$ go to marxists like obama and the afl/cio

 

[GogglesPisano]

IT sickens me to see my $$$ go to marxists like obama and the afl/cio

I'll tell you what. If you think you can negotiate a better deal for yourself, quit your union membership and walk into your CP's office and use your leverage to obtain a better compensation package. Be sure to remind him that you will not hesitate to withold your services. Let us know how it works out.

BTW, if you think Obama is a Marxist you must have slept through your political science classes.

 

[asadonkey]

I'll tell you what. If you think you can negotiate a better deal for yourself, quit your union membership and walk into your CP's office and use your leverage to obtain a better compensation package. Be sure to remind him that you will not hesitate to withold your services. Let us know how it works out.

Never said I could, not the point, although some of the proposed tax increases by your fellow liberals would by more than we could ever gain by collective bargaining. "Share the Wealth"

BTW, if you think Obama is a Marxist you must have slept through your political science classes.

Sleeping though a gov't "education" may be a good thing these days.

Obama himself acknowledges that he was drawn to socialists and even Marxists as a college student. He continued to associate with Marxists later in life, even choosing to launch his political career in the living room of a self-described Marxist, William Ayers, in 1995, when Obama was 34.

​

 

[GogglesPisano]

Sleeping though a gov't "education" may be a good thing these days.

Obama himself acknowledges that he was drawn to socialists and even Marxists as a college student. He continued to associate with Marxists later in life, even choosing to launch his political career in the living room of a self-described Marxist, William Ayers, in 1995, when Obama was 34.

​

Most educated people enjoy exposing themselves to varied philosophies and worldviews as they develop. I'm sure he was drawn to a number of different ideologies -- (it's called college.) I found a number of worldviews interesting when I was younger. Experience filtered most of them out.

The proof is in the pudding. His agenda is far from Marxist -- unless, of course you find yourself nodding in silent agreement every morning you watch "Fox and Friends."

 

[asadonkey]

Most educated people enjoy exposing themselves to varied philosophies and worldviews as they develop. I'm sure he was drawn to a number of different ideologies -- (it's called college.) I found a number of worldviews interesting when I was younger. Experience filtered most of them out.

The proof is in the pudding. His agenda is far from Marxist -- unless, of course you find yourself nodding in silent agreement every morning you watch "Fox and Friends."

He announces the launch of his political career in the living room of a marxist domestic terrorist...........I guess you could call that "exposing themselves to varied philosophies" ROFL

Don't worry socialism is on its way eventually, more sheep like you are lining up, kicking liberty and self reliance to the curb.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Alright, asadonkey. You're right. You've discovered the plot but it's too late. Prepare to surrender your guns, bibles and bootstraps. See you in the re-education camp, comrade!

 

[Smarta$$]

Sleeping though a gov't "education" may be a good thing these days.

Obama himself acknowledges that he was drawn to socialists and even Marxists as a college student. He continued to associate with Marxists later in life, even choosing to launch his political career in the living room of a self-described Marxist, William Ayers, in 1995, when Obama was 34.

​

So government education is bad? Then why are most all of the nations with better education outcomes run by the government?

 

[asadonkey]

So government education is bad? Then why are most all of the nations with better education outcomes run by the government?

"better education" is a term that is hard to define in respect to the ability to function in a relative social/economic situation. Don't get me wrong I think the republicans are as stupid as the others as far as education.

Our country is a representative republic, not a democracy. You will find it hard to find a decent number of folks that can define either, including the folks up on the stretch of land called the district of columbia.

Not only has our gov't education system failed on math, science etc. (versus other countries gov't ed) it has failed mostly on teaching the basic skills of capitalism (i.e. economics) For the mean time this is still the rules that our kids have to work with to develop wealth and security. If they can't teach this, no wonder we are behind on the important stuff . It basically has not been taught for a generation, and now we are reaping the fruits of this nonsense. ( I vote for X to give me more than I got now)

What is politically incorrect now to say is our capitalistic nation has saved millions of lives, found countless treatments for the sick, endless improvements in aviation/aerospace/science, and the chance to succeed....but you may fail OMG)

Folks have no idea what interest rates mean, what and how they are taxed, how our constitution and legal sytem works, etc etc. Our gov't education system has bi-laterally let us down and MOST of the folks that teach your kids are not teaching capitalism and self-reliance. They are teaching political correctness and socialism.

Clinton didn't give a crap for RLA bound airline employees, and Obama won't either. They both are using our union lobby money to secure power. I am no Bush fan but at least he he didn't promise me hope and change like our current snake oil salesman. Obama wants more droids, and when the economy is sour they will sell you down the road when push comes to shove. ( see RLA Sec.6)

Look at some of our former ALPA leaders, their roads they took, and what they are doing for us now as pilots....

 

[Smarta$$]

"better education" is a term that is hard to define in respect to the ability to function in a relative social/economic situation. Don't get me wrong I think the republicans are as stupid as the others as far as education.

Our country is a representative republic, not a democracy. You will find it hard to find a decent number of folks that can define either, including the folks up on the stretch of land called the district of columbia.

Not only has our gov't education system failed on math, science etc. (versus other countries gov't ed) it has failed mostly on teaching the basic skills of capitalism (i.e. economics) For the mean time this is still the rules that our kids have to work with to develop wealth and security. If they can't teach this, no wonder we are behind on the important stuff . It basically has not been taught for a generation, and now we are reaping the fruits of this nonsense. ( I vote for X to give me more than I got now)

What is politically incorrect now to say is our capitalistic nation has saved millions of lives, found countless treatments for the sick, endless improvements in aviation/aerospace/science, and the chance to succeed....but you may fail OMG)

Folks have no idea what interest rates mean, what and how they are taxed, how our constitution and legal sytem works, etc etc. Our gov't education system has bi-laterally let us down and MOST of the folks that teach your kids are not teaching capitalism and self-reliance. They are teaching political correctness and socialism.

Clinton didn't give a crap for RLA bound airline employees, and Obama won't either. They both are using our union lobby money to secure power. I am no Bush fan but at least he he didn't promise me hope and change like our current snake oil salesman. Obama wants more droids, and when the economy is sour they will sell you down the road when push comes to shove. ( see RLA Sec.6)

Look at some of our former ALPA leaders, their roads they took, and what they are doing for us now as pilots....

Over simplistic ideological dribble that smells exactly like talk radio manipulation. And you call other people drones. You trying to "educate" others with your limited and narrow understanding of the world is laughable.