Here's another - feeder route altitudes?

[apcooper]

MMMDonut,

Why do you gotta be such an a$$hole and personaly attach people who have legitimate questions? Oh you know everything right? I thought so. Maybe anyone who asks is just stupid right? I thought maybe you had this belief. You need to get yourself a big fat mamma and shove it.

 

[mmmdonut]

*yawn* happy new year

 

[philo beddoe]

Because it has not been proven to me satisfactorily that the segment before an IAF constitutes being established on the approach with respet to altitudes.

 

[vetteracer]

Quote
2) "FedEx 357, Cleared the NDB RWY 09 Approach, maintain 3,000' until established."

- - I continue to HLI at 3,000 feet, and then proceed along the HLI 299 radial outbound at 3,000'. I maintain 3,000' until I reach ELVIS because that's where the approach begins, and I'm not "established" until I get there. Being on the feeder route does not constitute being established on a segment of the published approach.

Interesting. Tony I have always thought (and been told by an FAA Examiner after a 135 ride) that once you are "Cleared for the Approach" you can do whatever you want, as long as you maintain the altitudes prescribed for on the app. I did a feeder transition from a VOR to the LOM, then the Procedure Turn. Once inbound, I left my assigned altitude. He asked why I did not descend earlier after established on the feeder route. I told him I was cleared ILS 21 maintan 3500'. He claimed I could do whatever I wanted, descend to the altitude on the feeder radial, and descend again once established outbound. He also said that if I wanted to ARC off the VOR to join the LOC I could do that, as long as I stayed at or above the MEA or the MSA. Now, if you are cleared for the app. Via an ATC assigned route then all bets are off.

ATC does not seem to have a problem with this either, 10-degree turns off of enroute course to join the LOC at the destination is common.

So the question is? is the feeder a part of the approach?

Mark

 

[philo beddoe]

MSA? Nope. Not part of the approach.

 

[Full of Foehn]

From the horse's mouth

...I'm cleared direct to HLI. I'm at 3,000', my last assigned altitude.

Two possible clearances:

1) "FedEx 357, Cleared the NDB RWY 09 Approach"

- - I continue to HLI at 3,000 feet, at which point I am legal to descend to the MEA of 2,100'. Upon reaching the LOM, ELVIS, I commence the procedure turn and begin a descent to 1,900'.


2) "FedEx 357, Cleared the NDB RWY 09 Approach, maintain 3,000' until established."

- - I continue to HLI at 3,000 feet, and then proceed along the HLI 299 radial outbound at 3,000'. I maintain 3,000' until I reach ELVIS because that's where the approach begins, and I'm not "established" until I get there. Being on the feeder route does not constitute being established on a segment of the published approach.

Actually you are established. The Pilot/Controller defines "established" as: To be stable or fixed on a route, route segment, altitude, heading, etc. Unfortunately, your controller is using non-standard phraseology by using the term "established" without additional informtion. According to the ATC Order 7110.65:

b. For aircraft operating on unpublished routes, issue the approach clearance only after the aircraft is: (See FIG 4-8-1.)
​

[size=-2]FIG 4-8-1[/size]
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Approach Clearance Example
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http://www.faa.gov/ATPUBS/ATC/Chp4/F040801.gif
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1. Established on a segment of a published route or instrument approach procedure.​

EXAMPLE-
Aircraft 1: The aircraft is established on a segment of a published route at 5,000 feet. "Cleared V-O-R Runway Three Four Approach."
​

2. Assigned an altitude to maintain until the aircraft is established on a segment of a published route or instrument approach procedure.
​

EXAMPLE-
Aircraft 2: The aircraft is inbound to the VOR on an unpublished direct route at 7,000 feet. The minimum IFR altitude for IFR operations (14 CFR Section 91.177) along this flight path to the VOR is 5,000 feet. "Cross the Redding V-O-R at or above five thousand, cleared V-O-R Runway Three Four Approach."

​

Notice the clearances do not include the word "established" in either instance. If ATC needs you to maintain a particular altitude for traffic separation, the clearance would include a limit for that altitude. In the radar environment and receiving vectors, if ATC wants you to maintain an altitude until established, they need to inform you of established on what (i.e. localizer course, published route, etc.) Again from 7110.65:

​

Issue all of the following to an aircraft before it reaches the approach gate:
​

a. Position relative to a fix on the final approach course. If none is portrayed on the radar display or if none is prescribed in the procedure, issue position information relative to the navigation aid which provides final approach guidance or relative to the airport.
​

b. Vector to intercept the final approach course if required.
​

c. Approach clearance except when conducting a radar approach. Issue approach clearance only after the aircraft is:
​

1. Established on a segment of a published route or instrument approach procedure or see FIG 5-9-1 Example 1.

[size=-2]FIG 5-9-1[/size]
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Arrival Instructions
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http://www.faa.gov/ATPUBS/ATC/Chp5/F050901.gif
​

​

​

EXAMPLE-
1. Aircraft 1 was vectored to the final approach course but clearance was withheld. It is now at 4,000 feet and established on a segment of the instrument approach procedure. "Seven miles from X-RAY. Cleared I-L-S runway three six approach." (See FIG 5-9-1.)

2. Aircraft 2 is being vectored to a published segment of the final approach course, 4 miles from LIMA at 2,000 feet. The MVA for this area is 2,000 feet. "Four miles from LIMA. Turn right heading three four zero. Maintain two thousand until established on the localizer. Cleared I-L-S runway three six approach."
(See FIG 5-9-1.)

3. Aircraft 3 is being vectored to intercept the final approach course beyond the approach segments, 5 miles from Alpha at
5,000 feet. the MVA for this area is 4,000 feet. "Five miles from Alpha. Turn right heading three three zero. Cross Alpha at or above four thousand. Cleared I-L-S runway three six approach."
(See FIG 5-9-1.)

4. Aircraft 4 is established on the final approach course beyond the approach segments, 8 miles from Alpha at 6,000 feet. The MVA for this area is 4,000 feet. "Eight miles from Alpha. Cross Alpha at or above four thousand. Cleared I-L-S runway three six approach."
(See FIG 5-9-1.)
​

I hope this helps, but it probably just more fuel on the fire.

Full of Foehn