Here's another - feeder route altitudes?

[DAS at 10/250]

Sorry RJ if this has been answered but I got tired of reading all the smarta@@ posts.

It looks like Via the BPT VOR R296 D5.6 to KAZOO MIN ALT 1700. From KAZOO the published PT within 10 DME of KAZOO to join the LOC at 1700.

Also, you guys don't overnight here do ya?

 

[RJFlyer]

Sorry RJ if this has been answered but I got tired of reading all the smarta@@ posts.

It looks like Via the BPT VOR R296 D5.6 to KAZOO MIN ALT 1700. From KAZOO the published PT within 10 DME of KAZOO to join the LOC at 1700.

Also, you guys don't overnight here do ya?

What I'm trying to find out is if cleared at 2000' (as midlifeflyer stated) "proceed direct Beaumont VOR. Cleared for the Beaumont ILS Runway 12 approach," can you descend to the 1700' as published on the feeder?

The AIM says in 5-4-7-b:
When operating on an unpublished route or while being radar vectored, the pilot, when an approach clearance is received, shall, in addition to complying with the minimum altitudes for IFR operations (14 CFR Section 91.177), maintain the last assigned altitude unless a different altitude is assigned by ATC, or until the aircraft is established on a segment of a published route or IAP. After the aircraft is so established, published altitudes apply to descent within each succeeding route or approach segment unless a different altitude is assigned by ATC. Notwithstanding this pilot responsibility, for aircraft operating on unpublished routes or while being radar vectored, ATC will, except when conducting a radar approach, issue an IFR approach clearance only after the aircraft is established on a segment of a published route or IAP, or assign an altitude to maintain until the aircraft is established on a segment of a published route or instrument approach procedure. For this purpose, the procedure turn of a published IAP shall not be considered a segment of that IAP until the aircraft reaches the initial fix or navigation facility upon which the procedure turn is predicated.

The question becomes, is the feeder considered a "published segment" of the approach? The AIM doesn't say, but my understanding is that it is. But if I'm wrong, then I'm busting altitude.

Everyone seems to have a different opinion on the subject, and that, mmmdonut, is why this is not a "basic question."

 

[mmmdonut]

Everyone seems to have a different opinion on the subject, and that, mmmdonut, is why this is not a "basic question."

My boyfriend and I won't be flying on your plane since you obviously don't know how to fly it...

 

[RJFlyer]

Also, you guys don't overnight here do ya?

ps: forgot to answer this part - no, we don't have overnights in BPT, but who knows what the schedules from ATL in Feb will look like...

 

[RJFlyer]

My boyfriend and I won't be flying on your plane since you obviously don't know how to fly it...

Okay Homer, since you seem to be the expert here, what's the answer?





(Thanking my lucky stars mmmdonut and his boyfriend won't be on my plane - I'm all out of seatbelt extenders...)

 

[mmmdonut]

The answer, dickhead is that they will assign an altitude prior to giving you a clearance.

How many times in that CRJ of yours have you been cleared to fly an approach like you described? Maybe on your flightsim CRJ you fvckin wannabe. Do your homework before mom catches you pretending to be a pilot!

 

[Uncle Sparky]

Why is an RJ pilot asking such a basic question? Must work for Mesa.....

I used to fly with a United 777 Captain at the last company I worked for. He started his career flying Lears and liked to do contract work on occasion for some extra cash, to stay fresh and to do some "real" flying. On longer legs, he would get out Jepp#1 and study the introduction section(symbology/legend) and look for items that he didn't know already. ...................only a FOOL thinks he's learned everything!

 

[Swerpipe]

The only stupid question is the one never asked

RJFLYER,

It is amazing that people instead of giving an answer engage in personal attacks. Your scenario is very relevant when flying in places like Mexico, places without radar and ATC "intervention". When the feeder is depicted on the approach plate it is a "published route". Once cleared for the approach you can and should (unless you want to be "high") descend to the altitude depicted on that published route. The feeder route is a published route and will have an altitude depicted. It also happens when cleared for the approach via a DME arc and the arc has step downs based on radials. You would descend to the altitude despicted on those radials. In Mexico, many airports are surrounded by Volcanos and these stepdowns give you terrain clearance. There is nothing muddy about that. Once cleared for the approach you are allowed to descend. If you were going direct the IAF and you are not on a published feeeder route, you need to wait passing the IAF to start descending. Hope that clears it.
Also, remember, you must always fly the procedure turn unless SHARP
S-specified on the chart "No PT"
H-properly aligned holding procedure
A-out of a DME arc
R-Radar vectored to final
P-teardrop procedure turn
Your scenario probably is not common while flying in the USA but happens all the time we go to Mexico. It is also relevant in the USA if you were to have a "Loss of Comm" situation. Many pilots think loss of comm would never happen but remember ATC could have a wild fire, earthquake, power loss, computer crash, terrorist attack, etc... which would result in the same scenario.

What I'm trying to find out is if cleared at 2000' (as midlifeflyer stated) "proceed direct Beaumont VOR. Cleared for the Beaumont ILS Runway 12 approach," can you descend to the 1700' as published on the feeder?
No, that only applies to the feeder. If you were cleared direct to the VOR you can only start descending after passing BPT and outbound on the localizer.
The responses that some of the folks have given you, highlights how some pilots think they know everything and they don't. Furthermore, they are not even aware of the operational differences between flying in the US vs. somewhere else... Take care...

 

[midlifeflyer]

The question becomes, is the feeder considered a "published segment" of the approach?

It is.

In a TERPS sense, a feeder route is an approach procedure segment that is created when the IAF is not on an airway. It's not part of the enroute structure, but is an off-airway segment designed to get you from a point in the enroute structure to the IAF. The =only= place it's published is as a segment of an approach. It follows the same TERPS criteria for obstructions, etc as any other approach segment. (The primary TERPS paragraph is 220 although there is, as usual with TERPS, a lot of other information elsewhere in the volume)

It's probably not as clear as it might be, but it's covered in the part of AIM 5-4-6, "Approach Clearance" that says (no, I'm not yelling. The allcaps is the AIM's
==============================
a. An aircraft which has been cleared to a holding fix and subsequently "cleared . . . approach" has not received new routing. Even though clearance for the approach may have been issued prior to the aircraft reaching the holding fix, ATC would expect the pilot to proceed via the holding fix (his/her last assigned route), and the feeder route associated with that fix (if a feeder route is published on the approach chart) to the initial approach fix (IAF) to commence the approach. WHEN CLEARED FOR THE APPROACH, THE PUBLISHED OFF AIRWAY (FEEDER) ROUTES THAT LEAD FROM THE EN ROUTE STRUCTURE TO THE IAF ARE PART OF THE APPROACH CLEARANCE.
==============================

It really is pretty basic stuff, although understandably forgotten since, in practice, radar coverage has made the use of the procedure pretty uncommon. Lack of use can make even the simplest things open to question. Heck, if we didn't use it all the time, the answer to 1+1=? would probably be subject to the usual group of "different opinions on the subject."

 

[DAS at 10/250]

ps: forgot to answer this part - no, we don't have overnights in BPT, but who knows what the schedules from ATL in Feb will look like...

Or if it will even work out. I'm not sure you guys are going to be able to hold onto the revenue guarantee that was provided for the BPT-DFW route. But if ya'll do start RON here we have some good guys to kill a few brews with.

Your scenario is very relevant when flying in places like Mexico, places without radar and ATC "intervention".

And here in BPT. The BPT TRSA only operates from 0600-2200 LCL. Houston Center takes over after that and they are not even remotely interested in giving radar vectors. After the tower closes your approach clearance will be "Flight XXXX maintain 3000 till 'stablished on a segment of the approach, cleared approach at BPT, report cancelation this freq or down time with Montogomery Radio." So, when the flights start from ATL and you get here after hours, it looks like you will proceed direct the BPT VOR (winds allowing) and fly the published full procedure ILS.

If that does happen, remember that BPT Class D is Class E after hours, so don't cancel airborne without VFR on the field.