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Here is the DAL MEC Chairman's letter about the TA....

StopNTSing

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Just curious, starting from the date SWA was founded, how many years did it take to reach Delta rates?

About 40 years. So I guess by your reasoning, after a trip through Ch11 Delta should be reclassified as an Upstart, not a Legacy?

IMO, SWA current payscale was funded by years of absolutely phenomenal(possibly lucky) fuel hedging. Now that the edge is gone, we'll see who makes more in the next 10 year period, the DAL pilot, or the SWA pilot.

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Whatever. I'd rather be lucky than good. FWIW, I hope you do make more in the next ten years. Though with this TA, you're still not there yet. Not to mention the Scope Genie isn't even close to being put back in his bottle.
 
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Jiminmem

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This TA doesn't bring us inline with SWA, it gets us close, and in 4 years from now, not on an earlier timeline as was expected. I think we all expected more considering the huge profits.

The raise is ok, but if it comes with a reduction in profit sharing, and an increase in 76 seat jets at DCI, it is really going to upset people. Promises of narrow body purchases are ridiculous, and total posturing.

We still haven't seen an actual TA as DALPA seems to be getting out in front of it to manage us. I think ALPA has given so many people a bad taste in their mouth, that a lackluster TA is the latest and biggest disappointment. People want to have their jobs restored to what it once was like, and believe a stronger hand with management is how you go about it. ALPA doesn't seem to take a strong enough approach for lots of guys.


The TA is out, check the website
 

777forever

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This TA doesn't bring us inline with SWA, it gets us close, and in 4 years from now, not on an earlier timeline as was expected. I think we all expected more considering the huge profits.

The raise is ok, but if it comes with a reduction in profit sharing, and an increase in 76 seat jets at DCI, it is really going to upset people. Promises of narrow body purchases are ridiculous, and total posturing.

We still haven't seen an actual TA as DALPA seems to be getting out in front of it to manage us. I think ALPA has given so many people a bad taste in their mouth, that a lackluster TA is the latest and biggest disappointment. People want to have their jobs restored to what it once was like, and believe a stronger hand with management is how you go about it. ALPA doesn't seem to take a strong enough approach for lots of guys.

If the narrowbody purchases are posturing then it cancels out your increase of 76 seaters argument.

As far as profit sharing, it's negotiations, you can't get everything you want in a reasonable time period. But you can get DPA in there and sit on the old contract rates for the next 5 years if you're lucky trying to get pay and profit sharing increases

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777forever

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About 40 years. So I guess by your reasoning, after a trip through Ch11 Delta should be reclassified as an Upstart, not a Legacy?

Whatever. I'd rather be lucky than good. FWIW, I hope you do make more in the next ten years. Though with this TA, you're still not there yet. Not to mention the Scope Genie isn't even close to being put back in his bottle.

Scope genie is well on its way back. The TA is setup to significantly increase mainline flying while significantly reduce DCI. Mainline would have to get much bigger before a single new 900/E175 gets painted in Delta colors. If anyone thinks otherwise I would be delighted to hear a reasonable explanation.

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Dan Roman

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Factoring in company 401k match (all we get, no DC plan), SWA senior captains make $236.09/hr after converting from TFP. With the Delta TA, they would be making $249.46/hr including their DC contribution.

Thanks and that's a very accurate perspective. How much an hour are you making and how much goes towards retirement is the reality of it.
 

Dan Roman

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Dan,

You probably should be more interested in this TA than others since it may affect you directly someday. Sounds like our fleets will be pretty well matched if we do get those AT 717s. Just sayin.... My own opinion? I don't think it will lead to any furloughs, rather big hiring if those 717s come this way. I do not like the pay at all though. Way low in my opinion.


Godspeed!


The OYSter


Actually that's what I was saying. We got the raise we did last time because we were able to use your rates at the bargaining table. (I think our 767 rate actually was slightly higher for a year or two).
When we go back to the table, your rates will be very important to us.
So don't screw it up by stagnating in the DPA/USAPAIAN jungle for the next few years!
 

Dan Roman

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Just curious, starting from the date SWA was founded, how many years did it take to reach Delta rates?

IMO, SWA current payscale was funded by years of absolutely phenomenal(possibly lucky) fuel hedging. Now that the edge is gone, we'll see who makes more in the next 10 year period, the DAL pilot, or the SWA pilot.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

Very well said, no it's not SWA bashing, it's simply reality.
 

Dan Roman

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Is there any contract in the history of the airline biz that has not either explicitly or implicitly made that "promise?" Don't fall for it.

Two and half years to reach SWA rates (to say nothing of our W2s)?

Way to "take it back" guys. :rolleyes: I can't wait to pass the "Industry Leading" title back to your double-breasted selves, but you've still got to nut-up and ask R.A. for it.

We should all be supporting each other to get higher rates, not trying to deparage other airlines to make ourselves look better.
We all know how SWA got to were they are and good for you guys that you finally got to the upper end of the industry payscales. How about checking your little "warrior spirit" and supporting others trying to do the same.
 
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johnsonrod

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I remember when Delta had the best pay package in the industry. Now Corndog 737 pilots make more than senior Delta 777 pilots. Good for the Corndoggers but not so good for the Deltoids - especially those at the bottom stagnating due to the age 65 rule.

After the big cuts experienced in bankruptcy, this offer is way too low. Plus, who takes the first offer? No lawyer would recommend that. Delta has money - enough to buy refineries. Delta management WANTS you to take this first offer. Don't take the bait!!!!!! Also keep in mind that the old timers from Delta/NWA want the money now and will likely sell-out the younger pilots who have to work longer due to Age 65 as well - very predictable...

BTW, ALPA is a complete joke. Why would you allow one organization to represent both mainline AND the regionals at the same time? I am a regional pilot and that doesn't make any sense to me either. I think it is time to kick Lee CHOKE to the curb! I would vote this deal DOWN!
 
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Linedriver

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I'm asking, as this is my first contract vote, what are the chances we would get a better contract if we vote this one down? I'm leaning on voting 'yes' and immediately filling out my DPA card.
 

johnsonrod

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I am sure Delta management is cheering your yes-leaning vote! So are the 62+ year old pilots (many of whom are former NWA pilots with pensions).

Negotiators expect additional offers - they don't expect one side to cave and accept the first an only offer. Just saying....
 

Heavy Set

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Probably too late in your negotiating process, but I would have started by insisting that Delta 737-800 pilots make the absolute same top pay as Southwest 737 pilots - and then increase it from there for larger aircraft. Southwest 737 pilots have set the high benchmark for wages and Delta needs to match that for the same aircraft type. That would have been a good place to start the negotiation. Southwest did not have a bankruptcy negotiation - but now it is time for Delta pilots to get their payback.

Offering to pay this amount over 3 years is an insult. I agree - vote it down!
 

StopNTSing

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We should all be supporting each other to get higher rates, not trying to deparage other airlines to make ourselves look better.
We all know how SWA got to were they are and good for you guys that you finally got to the upper end of the industry payscales. How about checking your little "warrior spirit" and supporting others trying to do the same.

Hey Dano, you really need to get some new material. That warrior spirit dig is getting a little long in the tooth....

....and I'm sorry that my message isn't in line with your kum ba yah-esque, rah-rah, everyone's a winner, PC tone. Get over it. Let me spell it out for you: I WANT the Delta pilots to win any dick-measuring contest with SWAPA pilots! Airline mgmts have been using labor to solve their problems for the last decade and it needs to STOP! When there's wobbliness in the face of management it should be called out....including in my own back yard. In the last year we agreed to fly an airplane with 30% more capacity for the SAME rate (WTFO?)! Now we have been presented with a side letter that provides NO override for international ops (Wha-WTFO?)! At least that one appears poised to go down in flames...

Hey, I don't care if it's Delta, Hawaiian, UCAL....or SWA. If a TA is a home-run, I'll be the first to cheer it on....for the benefit of the profession. And when it's a turd (as this one appears at first look), expect to take some heat from your peers. That in itself can be a very potent motivation to vote the right way.
 

777forever

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Probably too late in your negotiating process, but I would have started by insisting that Delta 737-800 pilots make the absolute same top pay as Southwest 737 pilots - and then increase it from there for larger aircraft. Southwest 737 pilots have set the high benchmark for wages and Delta needs to match that for the same aircraft type. That would have been a good place to start the negotiation. Southwest did not have a bankruptcy negotiation - but now it is time for Delta pilots to get their payback.

Offering to pay this amount over 3 years is an insult. I agree - vote it down!

Payrates aren't the end all of a compensation package. Just factoring in the 15% DC Delta pilots will top SWA. And in 3 short years the NC will be back at the table for more improvements


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Linedriver

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What happened during the Delta/NWA merger? Which offer was better - the initial offer or the one we have now?
 

KarmaPolice

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If the narrowbody purchases are posturing then it cancels out your increase of 76 seaters argument.

As far as profit sharing, it's negotiations, you can't get everything you want in a reasonable time period. But you can get DPA in there and sit on the old contract rates for the next 5 years if you're lucky trying to get pay and profit sharing increases

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

You're right. Unless they buy the 717 or more A319s, there is no increase in 76 seaters. It's black and white.
 

Hamfighter

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ALPA heard us "loud and clear" they said. That message was pay and not one more RJ. I will vote no over and over again. We do not need more RJs. That is ridiculous.
Southtran has the highest pay, no RJs, and is the most successful airline out there.
There is no reason to accept this.
 

Hamfighter

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50-seaters dying on the vine is great...they don't need to be replaced with bigger RJs.
 
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