Here is the DAL MEC Chairman's letter about the TA....

[Linedriver]

I'm asking, as this is my first contract vote, what are the chances we would get a better contract if we vote this one down? I'm leaning on voting 'yes' and immediately filling out my DPA card.

 

[johnsonrod]

Double post.

 

[johnsonrod]

I am sure Delta management is cheering your yes-leaning vote! So are the 62+ year old pilots (many of whom are former NWA pilots with pensions).

Negotiators expect additional offers - they don't expect one side to cave and accept the first an only offer. Just saying....

 

[Heavy Set]

Probably too late in your negotiating process, but I would have started by insisting that Delta 737-800 pilots make the absolute same top pay as Southwest 737 pilots - and then increase it from there for larger aircraft. Southwest 737 pilots have set the high benchmark for wages and Delta needs to match that for the same aircraft type. That would have been a good place to start the negotiation. Southwest did not have a bankruptcy negotiation - but now it is time for Delta pilots to get their payback.

Offering to pay this amount over 3 years is an insult. I agree - vote it down!

 

[StopNTSing]

We should all be supporting each other to get higher rates, not trying to deparage other airlines to make ourselves look better.
We all know how SWA got to were they are and good for you guys that you finally got to the upper end of the industry payscales. How about checking your little "warrior spirit" and supporting others trying to do the same.

Hey Dano, you really need to get some new material. That warrior spirit dig is getting a little long in the tooth....

....and I'm sorry that my message isn't in line with your kum ba yah-esque, rah-rah, everyone's a winner, PC tone. Get over it. Let me spell it out for you: I WANT the Delta pilots to win any dick-measuring contest with SWAPA pilots! Airline mgmts have been using labor to solve their problems for the last decade and it needs to STOP! When there's wobbliness in the face of management it should be called out....including in my own back yard. In the last year we agreed to fly an airplane with 30% more capacity for the SAME rate (WTFO?)! Now we have been presented with a side letter that provides NO override for international ops (Wha-WTFO?)! At least that one appears poised to go down in flames...

Hey, I don't care if it's Delta, Hawaiian, UCAL....or SWA. If a TA is a home-run, I'll be the first to cheer it on....for the benefit of the profession. And when it's a turd (as this one appears at first look), expect to take some heat from your peers. That in itself can be a very potent motivation to vote the right way.

 

[777forever]

Probably too late in your negotiating process, but I would have started by insisting that Delta 737-800 pilots make the absolute same top pay as Southwest 737 pilots - and then increase it from there for larger aircraft. Southwest 737 pilots have set the high benchmark for wages and Delta needs to match that for the same aircraft type. That would have been a good place to start the negotiation. Southwest did not have a bankruptcy negotiation - but now it is time for Delta pilots to get their payback.

Offering to pay this amount over 3 years is an insult. I agree - vote it down!

Payrates aren't the end all of a compensation package. Just factoring in the 15% DC Delta pilots will top SWA. And in 3 short years the NC will be back at the table for more improvements


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Linedriver]

What happened during the Delta/NWA merger? Which offer was better - the initial offer or the one we have now?

 

[KarmaPolice]

If the narrowbody purchases are posturing then it cancels out your increase of 76 seaters argument.

As far as profit sharing, it's negotiations, you can't get everything you want in a reasonable time period. But you can get DPA in there and sit on the old contract rates for the next 5 years if you're lucky trying to get pay and profit sharing increases

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

You're right. Unless they buy the 717 or more A319s, there is no increase in 76 seaters. It's black and white.

 

[Hamfighter]

ALPA heard us "loud and clear" they said. That message was pay and not one more RJ. I will vote no over and over again. We do not need more RJs. That is ridiculous.
Southtran has the highest pay, no RJs, and is the most successful airline out there.
There is no reason to accept this.

 

[Hamfighter]

50-seaters dying on the vine is great...they don't need to be replaced with bigger RJs.

 

[Skippy]

I'd like to see the spin on that ratio. Are they talking seats, aircraft, fat flight attendants or what?
Plus, single digit pay increases are laughable. 3% is merely cost of living. 4% DOS is a joke. I would have passed on the 12.5% all up front.

The spin on that ratio will be a decreaSe in overall intl bc of joint ventures. If that goes down, the domestic ratio goes thru the roof...

 

[Monster Buck]

"The share of mainline domestic flying will increase by 21 percent and the ratio of mainline domestic to DCI flying will increase by 57 percent over the life of this agreement."
This statement alone sounds pretty good to me.
I don't understand what everyone is complaining about.... I understand the devil is in the details, but a 20% pay increase in tightening up on scope sound like a win for the pilots..... Am I missing something?

wtf are you smoking........it allows for 70!!! more 76 seaters. This is a pos all around. A huge no vote and this is my last of 14 years of ALPA. I am the newest DPA member. Can they (DPA) fix this, who knows but ALPA obviously didn't "hear me loud and clear"!

 

[Hamfighter]

If it looks like crap, smells like crap, and came out of ALPA's anus...it's probably crap.

 

[KarmaPolice]

The two main points that hopefully will get this TA rejected...

-A pay increase that doesn't get us SWA W2s, AND is offset by a 33% reduction in our profit sharing.

-70 more 76 seaters on property, if Management gets to do what they were going to do anyway (buy some narrow bodies and scrap more 50 seaters)

 

[Jiminmem]

I'm asking, as this is my first contract vote, what are the chances we would get a better contract if we vote this one down? I'm leaning on voting 'yes' and immediately filling out my DPA card.

You are leaning towards voting yes, but filling out a DPA card? If you don't like it, vote no. Nothing worse then voting yes and complaining about the contract.

 

[135Drvr]

ALPA heard us "loud and clear" they said. That message was pay and not one more RJ. I will vote no over and over again. We do not need more RJs. That is ridiculous.
Southtran has the highest pay, no RJs, and is the most successful airline out there.
There is no reason to accept this.

Could not agree more. Who was DALPA listening to? - not us apparently. A piddly-ass raise funded by a reduction in profit sharing; more, bigger, RJs when the 50 seaters are doomed anyway; and only the most marginal improvements in reserve,vacation and sick time.

I hope you ALPA reps enjoyed your banquets at the Lowes hotel. With any luck that will be the last time you get another dime of mine to spend -you fukcs!. This TA is a disgrace.

DPA NOW!

 

[johnsonrod]

The two main points that hopefully will get this TA rejected...

-A pay increase that doesn't get us SWA W2s, AND is offset by a 33% reduction in our profit sharing.

-70 more 76 seaters on property, if Management gets to do what they were going to do anyway (buy some narrow bodies and scrap more 50 seaters)

I wholeheartedly agree with these 2 points. Get more 717s, A319s or C-Series airplanes instead of that number of CR7/9s. Passengers don't like the standard RJs - I should know I hear about it every day on my ERJ!!!!!!!!!!!! The CRJ line is very uncomfortable and clearly not cost competitive - that is why your Management wants to DUMP them. I guess the E170/175s are pretty comfortable.

 

[Linedriver]

You are leaning towards voting yes, but filling out a DPA card? If you don't like it, vote no. Nothing worse then voting yes and complaining about the contract.

When did I complain? I'm voting with my feet - much more effective.

 

[Tanker Clown]

Looks like Song guys almost get SWA money....after Obama finishes his next term. And all that cost was giving more flying away. Way to go! Another lowering of the bar...just as I predicted. Pathetic. My next prediction is that it passes 75-25.

Maybe you guys should just try for AF pilot rates + 1%.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Well General, where is your hell-bent no wavering on scope? Looks like they just opened the door to a LOT more 76 seaters with this turd. Yes it would continue the demise of the 50 seats ( that Anderson would be parking anyway ). So much for holding the line so far.

 

[General Lee]

Well General, where is your hell-bent no wavering on scope? Looks like they just opened the door to a LOT more 76 seaters with this turd. Yes it would continue the demise of the 50 seats ( that Anderson would be parking anyway ). So much for holding the line so far.

Do you mean me personally? I would say this scope really goes after the main problem, which is the total number of RJs. Do I want more 76 seaters? No. Do I want most of the 50 seaters to go away? Sure I do, and yes, they were probably going to go away anyway, but supposedly Delta has about 10 more years on the hook for them. So, what do you do about that? Do you complain to the sky? What to do? Looks like Bombardier will take away a bunch to add 76 seaters (up to 70 that is), as long as it is tied to new 717s or A319s coming. 1.25 new mainline planes for every new 76 seater, and those 76 seaters can go up to a max of 223, which is less than the current max of 255. (there are 153 now) To get any new 76 seaters, there MUST be 717s or A319s added. But, the other part of that is that there will be only 125 total 50 seaters (there must be 300 now) allowed.

So, the RJ numbers in TOTAL come way down. Were they coming down anyway? Probably, but someone got a lease extension. We can be mad about that all day, but what can you actually do about it? Just park them and lose money? You could, or you could try to do something about it. The problem which needs to be fixed is the TOTAL number.


And, what about the pilots of those RJs? I don't want them to hit the street. I did see something in the TA about 35% of newhires in each class have to come from an ALPA DCI airline. That's good if DL does hire a lot.


I have to continue to try to read the TA, it is giving me a headache. The compensation part isn't that great.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Looks like Song guys almost get SWA money....after Obama finishes his next term. And all that cost was giving more flying away. Way to go! Another lowering of the bar...just as I predicted. Pathetic. My next prediction is that it passes 75-25.

Maybe you guys should just try for AF pilot rates + 1%.

If you add the DC funding, the DL guys surpass the SWA pilots. Especially the SONG pilots....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Tanker Clown]

I can't believe it! GL gets a TA that pays less than SWA and caves on scope and the spin is in full swing. I'm shocked! (sarcasm heavily implied). If you guys ever thought that Delta would raise the bar, you are sadly mistaken. It would be one thing if they crushed SWA rates and caved on scope. But they didn't even get SWA pay to cave on scope.

Next prediction: GL says this thing is great (even though it's very much a turd) and it passes huge. SWA mgt uses this contract to erode the SWA contract.

 

[jynxyjericho]

So who wants to bet this thing passes with about 60% or better?

Sure would have liked to see that scope tightened up, o well. Now when bankruptcy comes to Delta again because of _________ (fill in blank) and the bankruptcy judge changes the ratio to something closer to current levels (only with 70 something seaters) is it still going to be the regional pilot's fault?

 

[General Lee]

I can't believe it! GL gets a TA that pays less than SWA and caves on scope and the spin is in full swing. I'm shocked! (sarcasm heavily implied). If you guys ever thought that Delta would raise the bar, you are sadly mistaken. It would be one thing if they crushed SWA rates and caved on scope. But they didn't even get SWA pay to cave on scope.

Next prediction: GL says this thing is great (even though it's very much a turd) and it passes huge. SWA mgt uses this contract to erode the SWA contract.

Thanks Tanky (sarcasm heavily implied). I don't think this whole thing is great at all. There are some parts that I have read that aren't as bad as I thought, but I am still waiting for a summary from ALPA (A negotiatior's notepad as we call them), and the roadshow in ATL. I want to hear exactly what they were thinking. I don't know if it will pass "huge", but it may pass. As far as you and the SWA guys go, GK has already made it clear in recent articles that things are getting tougher for you guys, and I don't know if that means he will be trying for cuts for you. I hope not, and I want you to go higher, for all of us. Good luck Tanky, enjoy SWA.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

So who wants to bet this thing passes with about 60% or better?

Sure would have liked to see that scope tightened up, o well. Now when bankruptcy comes to Delta again because of _________ (fill in blank) and the bankruptcy judge changes the ratio to something closer to current levels (only with 70 something seaters) is it still going to be the regional pilot's fault?

How about we get a summary from ALPA first (so I don't have to read lawyer-speak in the TA and get a headache), and then hear some roadshows? I have questions to ask. I think a lot of us do.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Bake]

Damn General, I thought you were a lawyer. You spew so much crap on here you could only be a lawyer or a call girl?

 

[igneousy2]

Southwest 737 pilots have set the high benchmark for wages and Delta needs to match that for the same aircraft type.

Okay I know you didn't mean to Heavy set but this statement almost made me vomit.

Having those on the higher branches of the tree knocked off above you leaving you on the highest branch of the tree does not allow SWA pilots to claim they are setting some high benchmark...and all of a sudden become the defenders of the profession.

This profession still allows you to make a descent living IN-SPITE of SWA not BECAUSE-OF SWA.

Sorry...this is not meant as a flame and I mean no disrespect to SWA pilots, but some people on this board speak of SWA and their pay rates as if they have always been the "kings" of the mountain, something all the rest of us have always aspired for. The highest paid 737 pilots to ever walk the planet.

Back in the day, people didn't go to SWA because the pay sucked...and it STILL SUCKS. Now it just sucks-more for everybody.

http://bit.ly/deltapay04
http://bit.ly/swapay04

 

[Jiminmem]

General, there is almost nothing good about this TA. I say lets vote today, shoot it down and start over.

 

[johnsonrod]

I agree - fire your ALPA reps/negotiators and start over!