heavy/double crew logging?

[Birddog]

Not sure how a bunk qualifies as a crewmember station for SIC. Similarly, not sure how you can "act" as pilot in command from the bunk. Everyone here knows the regs we have to work under are horribly written. If you feel you can defend claiming ALL that time in an interview, go for it. My gut tells me the intent is to log the time in a front seat. You can't go wrong with that, and you can certainly count the time in the rack in a separate entry.

When flying as SIC, I logged the number of hours in the seat as SIC, and the total time of the flight under total. I just got out of the seat, not off the flight. If I was acting as IRO (relieving the captain) I logged the time in the seat under a column marked IRO. Depending on where future jobs take me, I can either include in any other total, or leave it out all together. As PIC I am responsible for the plane, no matter if I am in the bunk, on the crapper, or in the seat. In the event of an emergency or diversion, I will still make a final decision, circumstances permitting, so I log it all as PIC.

 

[BornAgainPagan]

Not sure how a bunk qualifies as a crewmember station for SIC. Similarly, not sure how you can "act" as pilot in command from the bunk. Everyone here knows the regs we have to work under are horribly written. If you feel you can defend claiming ALL that time in an interview, go for it. My gut tells me the intent is to log the time in a front seat. You can't go wrong with that, and you can certainly count the time in the rack in a separate entry.

It doesn't have to be a "crewmember station" for SIC as that is required in 61.51 f(1). However, f(2) says as long as they're acting as a required crewmember under the regulation in which the flight is operated.....which makes no mention of crewmember stations. The two paragraphs, f1 and f2 are separated by the key word "or". I'm no lawyer, but that seems clear enough.

 

[dash8driver]

JessMan and b707guy,

So if you get up to take a dump and are gone from the controls for 10 minutes, do you subtract .2 from the block time when you log it?

 

[bigsky]

If their is only 1 captain on board and he logs 8 hours and then is in the bunk for 3 hours, he either logs it all or the ship is without a captain for 3 hours?? There is 1 person designated as PIC and that doesn't change until you land and get a new release

 

[b707guy]

Hey, not trying to be an FAA lawyer, just trying to use a little common sense in light of defense of time in an interview, since that's what this is really all about. I can't argue against what appears to be a legality per FARs to log every hour, including those in the bunk, as PIC if you are the assigned Captain. However, an IRO is an ersatz Captain, and takes command of the aircraft when the assigned Captain is resting. Does the IRO log PIC? I'll guess a bunch of IROs have. However, playing devil's advocate, you can't have two people in command, can you? My opinion only: I agree with birddog. Based on the extremely poorly worded and defined guidance, if you are an FO, log the time in a seat as SIC and time in a bunk as 'other'. It all can still go on a resume, but pay close attention to the actual application's definitions in reporting your time. Each company seems to have their idea of what they're interested in hearing.

 

[AC560]

takes command of the aircraft when the assigned Captain is resting. Does the IRO log PIC?

This gets debated ad nausem, being PIC (part 1) has nothing to do with logging PIC (part 61.51). If you are the sole manipulator and rated you can log PIC, this includes a F/O flying a RJ flight from Mooseballs Wyoming to Pigsnuckle Arkansas. 99.9% of the airlines will not accept this for employment purposes (and why they specifically state this on their apps as it is in contravention of how the FAA views it) but as far as the FAA is concerned that is how it works. There are numerous rulings from FAA Chief Counsel clearly stating this (plus close to 9000 posts on these forums).

ATP who signs for the plane logs everything even when he is sleeping.
Everyone else logs when they occupy a crew member station.

Do some searches on the topic and you will find all the supporting rulings and FAR's.

 

[HA25]

the Master (Captain) of a ship out at sea is the captain ALL of the time, whether he's asleep, at the helm or eating dinner..

 

[ttuite]

Hey, not trying to be an FAA lawyer, just trying to use a little common sense in light of defense of time in an interview, since that's what this is really all about. I can't argue against what appears to be a legality per FARs to log every hour, including those in the bunk, as PIC if you are the assigned Captain. However, an IRO is an ersatz Captain, and takes command of the aircraft when the assigned Captain is resting. Does the IRO log PIC? I'll guess a bunch of IROs have. However, playing devil's advocate, you can't have two people in command, can you? My opinion only: I agree with birddog. Based on the extremely poorly worded and defined guidance, if you are an FO, log the time in a seat as SIC and time in a bunk as 'other'. It all can still go on a resume, but pay close attention to the actual application's definitions in reporting your time. Each company seems to have their idea of what they're interested in hearing.

I am on my 7th job in 2.5 years. I have been on multiple interviews. I logged SIC for the entire flight except for the portion that I was sitting in the left seat. I logged left seat time as IRO (not pic). I have never been questioned about it during interviews from low cost carriers to legacies (Delta). It's when you start trying to log PIC time while sitting in the left seat that it causes questions to be asked. Most companies specify that PIC is when you sign for the aircraft.

 

[tailwindz]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^What he said!


If the regulation required you to be there, log it all in TT. If you want to stay out of trouble with the nit pickers log it all as SIC if are a FO/IRO. If you wish, log a separate column as IRO, ie you are relieving the Captain. BUT YOU BETTER BE READY TO DEFIND IT IN AN INTERVIEW. See there, now you just made an interview a confrontation for no reason. No one is going to give you more credibility because you made position reports from the left seat. WTF?

The Captain logs all the time as PIC, even sleeping. UNLESS, you are working for one of the few companies that the IRO signs into and out of the logbook and release as PIC when the Captain goes to the bunk. Even then when I was the IRO, I still logged it all as FO.

Never any splaning to do. KISS.

 

[Loco Gringo]

Log 2/3 of the block, don't log PIC unless you are released as PIC. If you are released as PIC it would be ok to log it all (my opinion only). Personally I didn't log third crew member time not building time anymore.