heavy/double crew logging?

[USA_Av8r]

Hey,
For you guys and gals flying those long legs and double or heavy crews. How much can you log for legal flight time? How do you represent that in your log books?

 

[Captain Oveur]

Log it all. You are a required crew member, even if you're asleep.
(you'll get a WIDE variety of logical, well thought out answers on this one.
My answer might not be considered correct, depending on the FAA person
you ask.)

 

[Squirrel29]

8 hours is the legal answer.

 

[bigsky]

8 hours?
If you have 1 capt, 1 FO, and IRO doing an 11 hour flight, who will log the 3 hour hours of PIC.....
I thought under part 121 you have to be designated as PIC....his/her name on the release so I would think that person is Captain the whole flight. I have seen cases where the 2 first officers have screwed up while the captain is in the bunk sleeping. Who do you think they violated?
It is really a gray area at best. I do believe that outfits like UPS have questioned people when they logged all the time as sic or IRO. Probably one would be smart to log 8 hours as SIC or whatever and rest as "other".
Bottom line you are a required crewmember so it should all be loggable.

 

[JessMan]

I always go by time in the seat. If you don't have access to the controls, how can you be considered in command of the plane? Plus I believe the 8 hour rule in the seat per pilot still applies too, regardless of the 12 hours aloft rule.

 

[Birddog]

I log it all. I was required to be on the aircraft in order to make it legal. If I was PIC, I signed the release and log book, regardless of who was in the seat.

 

[sgu]

Far 61.51

 

[LongBeachTrijet]

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-........................................................................................

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or

(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:....
................................................................................

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

It looks like this settles it. Log the whole flight.

 

[spitfire1500]

Log it all. You are a required crew member, even if you're asleep.
(you'll get a WIDE variety of logical, well thought out answers on this one.
My answer might not be considered correct, depending on the FAA person
you ask.)

Thats how I do it.....

 

[b707guy]

Not sure how a bunk qualifies as a crewmember station for SIC. Similarly, not sure how you can "act" as pilot in command from the bunk. Everyone here knows the regs we have to work under are horribly written. If you feel you can defend claiming ALL that time in an interview, go for it. My gut tells me the intent is to log the time in a front seat. You can't go wrong with that, and you can certainly count the time in the rack in a separate entry.

 

[Birddog]

Not sure how a bunk qualifies as a crewmember station for SIC. Similarly, not sure how you can "act" as pilot in command from the bunk. Everyone here knows the regs we have to work under are horribly written. If you feel you can defend claiming ALL that time in an interview, go for it. My gut tells me the intent is to log the time in a front seat. You can't go wrong with that, and you can certainly count the time in the rack in a separate entry.

When flying as SIC, I logged the number of hours in the seat as SIC, and the total time of the flight under total. I just got out of the seat, not off the flight. If I was acting as IRO (relieving the captain) I logged the time in the seat under a column marked IRO. Depending on where future jobs take me, I can either include in any other total, or leave it out all together. As PIC I am responsible for the plane, no matter if I am in the bunk, on the crapper, or in the seat. In the event of an emergency or diversion, I will still make a final decision, circumstances permitting, so I log it all as PIC.

 

[BornAgainPagan]

Not sure how a bunk qualifies as a crewmember station for SIC. Similarly, not sure how you can "act" as pilot in command from the bunk. Everyone here knows the regs we have to work under are horribly written. If you feel you can defend claiming ALL that time in an interview, go for it. My gut tells me the intent is to log the time in a front seat. You can't go wrong with that, and you can certainly count the time in the rack in a separate entry.

It doesn't have to be a "crewmember station" for SIC as that is required in 61.51 f(1). However, f(2) says as long as they're acting as a required crewmember under the regulation in which the flight is operated.....which makes no mention of crewmember stations. The two paragraphs, f1 and f2 are separated by the key word "or". I'm no lawyer, but that seems clear enough.

 

[dash8driver]

JessMan and b707guy,

So if you get up to take a dump and are gone from the controls for 10 minutes, do you subtract .2 from the block time when you log it?

 

[bigsky]

If their is only 1 captain on board and he logs 8 hours and then is in the bunk for 3 hours, he either logs it all or the ship is without a captain for 3 hours?? There is 1 person designated as PIC and that doesn't change until you land and get a new release

 

[b707guy]

Hey, not trying to be an FAA lawyer, just trying to use a little common sense in light of defense of time in an interview, since that's what this is really all about. I can't argue against what appears to be a legality per FARs to log every hour, including those in the bunk, as PIC if you are the assigned Captain. However, an IRO is an ersatz Captain, and takes command of the aircraft when the assigned Captain is resting. Does the IRO log PIC? I'll guess a bunch of IROs have. However, playing devil's advocate, you can't have two people in command, can you? My opinion only: I agree with birddog. Based on the extremely poorly worded and defined guidance, if you are an FO, log the time in a seat as SIC and time in a bunk as 'other'. It all can still go on a resume, but pay close attention to the actual application's definitions in reporting your time. Each company seems to have their idea of what they're interested in hearing.

 

[AC560]

takes command of the aircraft when the assigned Captain is resting. Does the IRO log PIC?

This gets debated ad nausem, being PIC (part 1) has nothing to do with logging PIC (part 61.51). If you are the sole manipulator and rated you can log PIC, this includes a F/O flying a RJ flight from Mooseballs Wyoming to Pigsnuckle Arkansas. 99.9% of the airlines will not accept this for employment purposes (and why they specifically state this on their apps as it is in contravention of how the FAA views it) but as far as the FAA is concerned that is how it works. There are numerous rulings from FAA Chief Counsel clearly stating this (plus close to 9000 posts on these forums).

ATP who signs for the plane logs everything even when he is sleeping.
Everyone else logs when they occupy a crew member station.

Do some searches on the topic and you will find all the supporting rulings and FAR's.

 

[HA25]

the Master (Captain) of a ship out at sea is the captain ALL of the time, whether he's asleep, at the helm or eating dinner..

 

[ttuite]

Hey, not trying to be an FAA lawyer, just trying to use a little common sense in light of defense of time in an interview, since that's what this is really all about. I can't argue against what appears to be a legality per FARs to log every hour, including those in the bunk, as PIC if you are the assigned Captain. However, an IRO is an ersatz Captain, and takes command of the aircraft when the assigned Captain is resting. Does the IRO log PIC? I'll guess a bunch of IROs have. However, playing devil's advocate, you can't have two people in command, can you? My opinion only: I agree with birddog. Based on the extremely poorly worded and defined guidance, if you are an FO, log the time in a seat as SIC and time in a bunk as 'other'. It all can still go on a resume, but pay close attention to the actual application's definitions in reporting your time. Each company seems to have their idea of what they're interested in hearing.

I am on my 7th job in 2.5 years. I have been on multiple interviews. I logged SIC for the entire flight except for the portion that I was sitting in the left seat. I logged left seat time as IRO (not pic). I have never been questioned about it during interviews from low cost carriers to legacies (Delta). It's when you start trying to log PIC time while sitting in the left seat that it causes questions to be asked. Most companies specify that PIC is when you sign for the aircraft.

 

[tailwindz]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^What he said!


If the regulation required you to be there, log it all in TT. If you want to stay out of trouble with the nit pickers log it all as SIC if are a FO/IRO. If you wish, log a separate column as IRO, ie you are relieving the Captain. BUT YOU BETTER BE READY TO DEFIND IT IN AN INTERVIEW. See there, now you just made an interview a confrontation for no reason. No one is going to give you more credibility because you made position reports from the left seat. WTF?

The Captain logs all the time as PIC, even sleeping. UNLESS, you are working for one of the few companies that the IRO signs into and out of the logbook and release as PIC when the Captain goes to the bunk. Even then when I was the IRO, I still logged it all as FO.

Never any splaning to do. KISS.

 

[Loco Gringo]

Log 2/3 of the block, don't log PIC unless you are released as PIC. If you are released as PIC it would be ok to log it all (my opinion only). Personally I didn't log third crew member time not building time anymore.

 

[bigsky]

That third (or fourth) crewmember is required for the ac to leave the gate if it is more than 8 or more than 12 hours.....I just dont see it as a 2/3 required crewmember.

 

[AC560]

That third (or fourth) crewmember is required for the ac to leave the gate if it is more than 8 or more than 12 hours.....I just dont see it as a 2/3 required crewmember.

When is that crew member required though? If the plane takes off and has to return 30 minutes due to emergency what was the requirement for additional crew members?

The regulations are clear in this regard, when that 3rd or 4th crew member in a 2 pilot aircraft is required through rest rules to occupy a crew member position (which isn't a chair in back sleeping) they can log time. The ATP operating as PIC under Part 1 gets to log everything, everyone else logs when they are at a station.

 

[Whine Lover]

Log Books are for girls and anal retentive Captain wannabe's....

 

[propilot]

When is that crew member required though? If the plane takes off and has to return 30 minutes due to emergency what was the requirement for additional crew members?

The regulations are clear in this regard, when that 3rd or 4th crew member in a 2 pilot aircraft is required through rest rules to occupy a crew member position (which isn't a chair in back sleeping) they can log time. The ATP operating as PIC under Part 1 gets to log everything, everyone else logs when they are at a station.

The crewmember is required for the a/c to be dispatched, therefore required for the entire flight. He/she isn't magically required at the 8 hr mark...

 

[lansen]

JessMan and b707guy,

So if you get up to take a dump and are gone from the controls for 10 minutes, do you subtract .2 from the block time when you log it?

No bunks or crappers in our planes so we don't have to worry about it.

 

[skypine69]

No bunks or crappers in our planes so we don't have to worry about it.

Just cause there is no crapper dont mean you can't take a crap.

 

[lansen]

I'm not a fan of crapping in a plastic bag i'll hold it

 

[waka]

When is that crew member required though? If the plane takes off and has to return 30 minutes due to emergency what was the requirement for additional crew members?

Yes, because the flight couldn't be dispatched in the first place without the dispatch release and that requires that the intended flight be in regulatory compliance. If they had to return and say they blew some tires and ran off the runway, then the feds get involved. If the aircraft didn't have enough pilots for the intended flight, I am pretty sure that the FAA would have an issue with this.

Don't chicken and egg this!

 

[transpac]

Interesting logic going on here. Why not log all passenger time too? After all, passenger airplanes wouldn't fly or even exist if if passengers weren't around. The ongoing debate over PIC time is not because the FAR's are unclear. It's because for some inexplicable reason most airlines won't accept civilian "sole manipulator" time as PIC time. But, they happily accept military First Pilot time, which is exactly the same thing.

 

[AdlerDriver]

It's because for some inexplicable reason most airlines won't accept civilian "sole manipulator" time as PIC time. But, they happily accept military First Pilot time, which is exactly the same thing.

Sounds like your experience w/ military FP time is a bit different than mine.
I logged quite a few FP hours in a single seat F-15A during my initial RTU training. I had a set of AF wings on, signed for the jet and mo' definitely was the PIC. I just wasn't a full-up mission ready F-15 pilot, so my time was logged as FP, not MP time in A-forms.