heavy/double crew logging?

[USA_Av8r]

Hey,
For you guys and gals flying those long legs and double or heavy crews. How much can you log for legal flight time? How do you represent that in your log books?

 

[Captain Oveur]

Log it all. You are a required crew member, even if you're asleep.
(you'll get a WIDE variety of logical, well thought out answers on this one.
My answer might not be considered correct, depending on the FAA person
you ask.)

 

[Squirrel29]

8 hours is the legal answer.

 

[bigsky]

8 hours?
If you have 1 capt, 1 FO, and IRO doing an 11 hour flight, who will log the 3 hour hours of PIC.....
I thought under part 121 you have to be designated as PIC....his/her name on the release so I would think that person is Captain the whole flight. I have seen cases where the 2 first officers have screwed up while the captain is in the bunk sleeping. Who do you think they violated?
It is really a gray area at best. I do believe that outfits like UPS have questioned people when they logged all the time as sic or IRO. Probably one would be smart to log 8 hours as SIC or whatever and rest as "other".
Bottom line you are a required crewmember so it should all be loggable.

 

[JessMan]

I always go by time in the seat. If you don't have access to the controls, how can you be considered in command of the plane? Plus I believe the 8 hour rule in the seat per pilot still applies too, regardless of the 12 hours aloft rule.

 

[Birddog]

I log it all. I was required to be on the aircraft in order to make it legal. If I was PIC, I signed the release and log book, regardless of who was in the seat.

 

[sgu]

Far 61.51

 

[LongBeachTrijet]

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-........................................................................................

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or

(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:....
................................................................................

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

It looks like this settles it. Log the whole flight.

 

[spitfire1500]

Log it all. You are a required crew member, even if you're asleep.
(you'll get a WIDE variety of logical, well thought out answers on this one.
My answer might not be considered correct, depending on the FAA person
you ask.)

Thats how I do it.....

 

[b707guy]

Not sure how a bunk qualifies as a crewmember station for SIC. Similarly, not sure how you can "act" as pilot in command from the bunk. Everyone here knows the regs we have to work under are horribly written. If you feel you can defend claiming ALL that time in an interview, go for it. My gut tells me the intent is to log the time in a front seat. You can't go wrong with that, and you can certainly count the time in the rack in a separate entry.

 

[Birddog]

Not sure how a bunk qualifies as a crewmember station for SIC. Similarly, not sure how you can "act" as pilot in command from the bunk. Everyone here knows the regs we have to work under are horribly written. If you feel you can defend claiming ALL that time in an interview, go for it. My gut tells me the intent is to log the time in a front seat. You can't go wrong with that, and you can certainly count the time in the rack in a separate entry.

When flying as SIC, I logged the number of hours in the seat as SIC, and the total time of the flight under total. I just got out of the seat, not off the flight. If I was acting as IRO (relieving the captain) I logged the time in the seat under a column marked IRO. Depending on where future jobs take me, I can either include in any other total, or leave it out all together. As PIC I am responsible for the plane, no matter if I am in the bunk, on the crapper, or in the seat. In the event of an emergency or diversion, I will still make a final decision, circumstances permitting, so I log it all as PIC.

 

[BornAgainPagan]

Not sure how a bunk qualifies as a crewmember station for SIC. Similarly, not sure how you can "act" as pilot in command from the bunk. Everyone here knows the regs we have to work under are horribly written. If you feel you can defend claiming ALL that time in an interview, go for it. My gut tells me the intent is to log the time in a front seat. You can't go wrong with that, and you can certainly count the time in the rack in a separate entry.

It doesn't have to be a "crewmember station" for SIC as that is required in 61.51 f(1). However, f(2) says as long as they're acting as a required crewmember under the regulation in which the flight is operated.....which makes no mention of crewmember stations. The two paragraphs, f1 and f2 are separated by the key word "or". I'm no lawyer, but that seems clear enough.

 

[dash8driver]

JessMan and b707guy,

So if you get up to take a dump and are gone from the controls for 10 minutes, do you subtract .2 from the block time when you log it?

 

[bigsky]

If their is only 1 captain on board and he logs 8 hours and then is in the bunk for 3 hours, he either logs it all or the ship is without a captain for 3 hours?? There is 1 person designated as PIC and that doesn't change until you land and get a new release

 

[b707guy]

Hey, not trying to be an FAA lawyer, just trying to use a little common sense in light of defense of time in an interview, since that's what this is really all about. I can't argue against what appears to be a legality per FARs to log every hour, including those in the bunk, as PIC if you are the assigned Captain. However, an IRO is an ersatz Captain, and takes command of the aircraft when the assigned Captain is resting. Does the IRO log PIC? I'll guess a bunch of IROs have. However, playing devil's advocate, you can't have two people in command, can you? My opinion only: I agree with birddog. Based on the extremely poorly worded and defined guidance, if you are an FO, log the time in a seat as SIC and time in a bunk as 'other'. It all can still go on a resume, but pay close attention to the actual application's definitions in reporting your time. Each company seems to have their idea of what they're interested in hearing.