heavy/double crew logging?

[waka]

Interesting logic going on here. Why not log all passenger time too? After all, passenger airplanes wouldn't fly or even exist if if passengers weren't around.

That is an inapplicable analogy. Although passengers are required for revenue so that the airline can remain in business, they are not required per regulations. The whole premise of the argument is that the 3rd or 4th crewmember is required by regulation. Someone posted a link to the FAR earlier in the thread and that part is pretty unambiguous.

 

[AC560]

The crewmember is required for the a/c to be dispatched, therefore required for the entire flight. He/she isn't magically required at the 8 hr mark...

I would agree my analogy was poor but it still doesn't eliminate the requirement to be at a station in order to log time (short of being PIC under part 1 which allows you to log the entire flight). Transpac indicates what the primary confusion is 61.51 which is both clear and explained by the Chief Counsel.

The reality though is there is the FAA side of it (what is legal to log) and what an airline will accept for employment.

 

[Loco Gringo]

That third (or fourth) crewmember is required for the ac to leave the gate if it is more than 8 or more than 12 hours.....I just dont see it as a 2/3 required crewmember.

It's not my plan. That's how UPS track's crew member flight time for tracking weekly, monthly and annual FAR flight time limits. The idea is that each crew member sits in a front seat for 2/3 of the trip.

 

[transpac]

Sounds like your experience w/ military FP time is a bit different than mine.
I logged quite a few FP hours in a single seat F-15A during my initial RTU training. I had a set of AF wings on, signed for the jet and mo' definitely was the PIC. I just wasn't a full-up mission ready F-15 pilot, so my time was logged as FP, not MP time in A-forms.

You're right, I was referencing multi-crew situations, not single seat time. But, since Navy logbooks of my era didn't have a PIC or AC column it wouldn't have made any difference. In my day Navy flight time was logged as FP, SP, or Special Crew on the flight paperwork. Times were transferred from the flight paperwork to individual personal logbooks by someone in squadron Operations. While there was a block on the flight paperwork to indicate the Aircraft Commander, there wasn't an Aircraft Commander column in logbooks. Therefore, there was no differentation between First Pilot time logged by the actual aircraft commander and First Pilot time logged by a co-pilot. The normal practice was to split first pilot and second pilot time equally between the pilots. I have no idea if time is still logged in the same manner. My point in the preceeding post was that much of the First Pilot time logged by military pilots could actually be what civilians derisively call "sole manipulator" time.