heavy/double crew logging?

[bigsky]

That third (or fourth) crewmember is required for the ac to leave the gate if it is more than 8 or more than 12 hours.....I just dont see it as a 2/3 required crewmember.

 

[AC560]

That third (or fourth) crewmember is required for the ac to leave the gate if it is more than 8 or more than 12 hours.....I just dont see it as a 2/3 required crewmember.

When is that crew member required though? If the plane takes off and has to return 30 minutes due to emergency what was the requirement for additional crew members?

The regulations are clear in this regard, when that 3rd or 4th crew member in a 2 pilot aircraft is required through rest rules to occupy a crew member position (which isn't a chair in back sleeping) they can log time. The ATP operating as PIC under Part 1 gets to log everything, everyone else logs when they are at a station.

 

[Whine Lover]

Log Books are for girls and anal retentive Captain wannabe's....

 

[propilot]

When is that crew member required though? If the plane takes off and has to return 30 minutes due to emergency what was the requirement for additional crew members?

The regulations are clear in this regard, when that 3rd or 4th crew member in a 2 pilot aircraft is required through rest rules to occupy a crew member position (which isn't a chair in back sleeping) they can log time. The ATP operating as PIC under Part 1 gets to log everything, everyone else logs when they are at a station.

The crewmember is required for the a/c to be dispatched, therefore required for the entire flight. He/she isn't magically required at the 8 hr mark...

 

[lansen]

JessMan and b707guy,

So if you get up to take a dump and are gone from the controls for 10 minutes, do you subtract .2 from the block time when you log it?

No bunks or crappers in our planes so we don't have to worry about it.

 

[skypine69]

No bunks or crappers in our planes so we don't have to worry about it.

Just cause there is no crapper dont mean you can't take a crap.

 

[lansen]

I'm not a fan of crapping in a plastic bag i'll hold it

 

[waka]

When is that crew member required though? If the plane takes off and has to return 30 minutes due to emergency what was the requirement for additional crew members?

Yes, because the flight couldn't be dispatched in the first place without the dispatch release and that requires that the intended flight be in regulatory compliance. If they had to return and say they blew some tires and ran off the runway, then the feds get involved. If the aircraft didn't have enough pilots for the intended flight, I am pretty sure that the FAA would have an issue with this.

Don't chicken and egg this!

 

[transpac]

Interesting logic going on here. Why not log all passenger time too? After all, passenger airplanes wouldn't fly or even exist if if passengers weren't around. The ongoing debate over PIC time is not because the FAR's are unclear. It's because for some inexplicable reason most airlines won't accept civilian "sole manipulator" time as PIC time. But, they happily accept military First Pilot time, which is exactly the same thing.

 

[AdlerDriver]

It's because for some inexplicable reason most airlines won't accept civilian "sole manipulator" time as PIC time. But, they happily accept military First Pilot time, which is exactly the same thing.

Sounds like your experience w/ military FP time is a bit different than mine.
I logged quite a few FP hours in a single seat F-15A during my initial RTU training. I had a set of AF wings on, signed for the jet and mo' definitely was the PIC. I just wasn't a full-up mission ready F-15 pilot, so my time was logged as FP, not MP time in A-forms.

 

[waka]

Interesting logic going on here. Why not log all passenger time too? After all, passenger airplanes wouldn't fly or even exist if if passengers weren't around.

That is an inapplicable analogy. Although passengers are required for revenue so that the airline can remain in business, they are not required per regulations. The whole premise of the argument is that the 3rd or 4th crewmember is required by regulation. Someone posted a link to the FAR earlier in the thread and that part is pretty unambiguous.

 

[AC560]

The crewmember is required for the a/c to be dispatched, therefore required for the entire flight. He/she isn't magically required at the 8 hr mark...

I would agree my analogy was poor but it still doesn't eliminate the requirement to be at a station in order to log time (short of being PIC under part 1 which allows you to log the entire flight). Transpac indicates what the primary confusion is 61.51 which is both clear and explained by the Chief Counsel.

The reality though is there is the FAA side of it (what is legal to log) and what an airline will accept for employment.

 

[Loco Gringo]

That third (or fourth) crewmember is required for the ac to leave the gate if it is more than 8 or more than 12 hours.....I just dont see it as a 2/3 required crewmember.

It's not my plan. That's how UPS track's crew member flight time for tracking weekly, monthly and annual FAR flight time limits. The idea is that each crew member sits in a front seat for 2/3 of the trip.

 

[transpac]

Sounds like your experience w/ military FP time is a bit different than mine.
I logged quite a few FP hours in a single seat F-15A during my initial RTU training. I had a set of AF wings on, signed for the jet and mo' definitely was the PIC. I just wasn't a full-up mission ready F-15 pilot, so my time was logged as FP, not MP time in A-forms.

You're right, I was referencing multi-crew situations, not single seat time. But, since Navy logbooks of my era didn't have a PIC or AC column it wouldn't have made any difference. In my day Navy flight time was logged as FP, SP, or Special Crew on the flight paperwork. Times were transferred from the flight paperwork to individual personal logbooks by someone in squadron Operations. While there was a block on the flight paperwork to indicate the Aircraft Commander, there wasn't an Aircraft Commander column in logbooks. Therefore, there was no differentation between First Pilot time logged by the actual aircraft commander and First Pilot time logged by a co-pilot. The normal practice was to split first pilot and second pilot time equally between the pilots. I have no idea if time is still logged in the same manner. My point in the preceeding post was that much of the First Pilot time logged by military pilots could actually be what civilians derisively call "sole manipulator" time.