Hawker to Hawaii

[KSUPILOT]

Saw in the Hawker 800XP info brochure we got the other day that they can do Hawaii in 6 hours. Anyone done it in a 800xp?

Thanks.

KSUPILOT

 

[hawkerflyer]

Not until the boss springs for winglets. Looking at that just the other day, MRY-HNL is actually shorter than the SDL-ANC trips that we so.

 

[Rick1128]

KSFO - PHNL is just over 2100 nm so the 800 XP should be able to do it with very few issues. There is the possiblity of a wet foot print if you have pressurization problems. Without the performance manual right handy, I can not give you a complete anwser. The 800 has much better range than the WW2 or the LR36. And I have done that routing in both. It was not too comfortable at the mid point.

 

[h25b]

Not the airplane to go to Hawaii in... I used to see guys at FSI ILG in recurrent that did it about once a year. Crazy if you ask me.

Wet footprint is a big issue.

 

[miles otoole]

Are you insane?

 

[h25b]

Who were you referring to ???

 

[gern_blanston]

If there's a wet footprint, stay home. Used to have a boss (we had a Westwind II) who kept talking about going to Hawaii.
I always told him, "Have a nice trip."

 

[miles otoole]

Who were you referring to ???

Sorry-original post.

 

[FracCapt]

Wet footprint for pressurization. Are you a good swimmer? If not, I hope you have room in that XP to put a Zodiac and enough gas to get you the last couple hundred miles.

 

[miles otoole]

Wet footprint for pressurization. Are you a good swimmer? If not, I hope you have room in that XP to put a Zodiac and enough gas to get you the last couple hundred miles.

Liferaft? Hell, I hope you'll survive the ditch.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Yep, it can be done with a little bit of planning. First of all, get 6 hours out of your head because it is going to take longer than that. If you go to PHNL leave out of Oakland or SFO, and I would do it early early in the morning so you wont have any delays getting out. If you go to Maui, leave out of Socal. Have the fbo put the nose of the hawker into a drainage grate or something like that so the aircraft is slanted downward when it gets fueled OVER the WING. Get every last drop in there that you can. You'll have to make the trip at .70 LRC. You can cross the water 2 ways, constant FF or constant TAS. For this trip, use TAS and the fuel #s will work out. Just keep pulling the power back as it gets lighter and accelerates and you will make it just fine. Anymore that 50 knots of headwind, and you need to turn back or not even depart. More than 50 knots, and you are asking for a lot of trouble. When you depart make sure you go directly to 380 min, and as soon as you can, get to 400. Hound the controllers if you have to, but make sure you get up there asap. Stand that bad boy on its tail through the teens, then lower the nose and climb it at 270 to .68 out of FL230 or 240. You'll need that speed up top if you are heavy or it just wont go. For some reason Hawker guys like to climb slow, and when it gets to altitude it just sits there with very high AOAs and then it takes forever to accelerate. You don't want that for this trip. Climb it fast out of the 20s on up. Remember, for the most part that wing is a 30 year old design. Also, I know baggage space is very limited, but rent some large O2 takes for pax use. That is really the only way to do the trip comfortably. Rent those tanks and make sure the valve behind the captains head is turned off, as you don't want the pax suxing down your O2 if the cabin gives. Get them their own bottles. Also remember that even if the cabin gives out over the water, as long as the RH engine is working, you have all the pressurization that you need. It might get hot in there, but hey, at least you are alive. Don't accept some early decent. If fuel is tight, plan a flight idle decent at 250 Knots to stay up as long as possible. Just program the decent into the box (If it's Honeywell nz2000s, tell the box what runway you are going to land on, then RH line select that fix. It should be the last item on the flight plan. Now put in the altitude of the runway threshhold +50 feet and ref +10. To go to that fix direct at any point in the flight and have it set up a decent as you programmed, hit Direct to then Line select the right hand side of the fix, which is where you entered the info of alt and speed. It's just takes you direct to the fix vertically as you have it programmed instead of just horizontally. The purple glide spope bug comes up and if you want to wait a little longer, then just dont follow it until you are ok with it. Just keep hitting Dir. to and line selecting the RH side and it will do that for you. Lots of Honeywell guys dont know that trick, but you do now!) After the boss sees how bad the trip over suxed, as soon as he gets home make sure you are with him to select the new paint and interior for the DA2000, DA50 or CL300 that should really be making this trip. None of all this hassle trying to squeeze a few extra miles out of this thing. Now, sit back at .70 and watch the water go by.

 

[GulfstreamSDL]

Yep, it can be done with a little bit of planning. First of all, get 6 hours out of your head because it is going to take longer than that. If you go to PHNL leave out of Oakland or SFO, and I would do it early early in the morning so you wont have any delays getting out. If you go to Maui, leave out of Socal. Have the fbo put the nose of the hawker into a drainage grate or something like that so the aircraft is slanted downward when it gets fueled OVER the WING. Get every last drop in there that you can. You'll have to make the trip at .70 LRC. You can cross the water 2 ways, constant FF or constant TAS. For this trip, use TAS and the fuel #s will work out. Just keep pulling the power back as it gets lighter and accelerates and you will make it just fine. Anymore that 50 knots of headwind, and you need to turn back or not even depart. More than 50 knots, and you are asking for a lot of trouble. When you depart make sure you go directly to 380 min, and as soon as you can, get to 400. Hound the controllers if you have to, but make sure you get up there asap. Stand that bad boy on its tail through the teens, then lower the nose and climb it at 270 to .68 out of FL230 or 240. You'll need that speed up top if you are heavy or it just wont go. For some reason Hawker guys like to climb slow, and when it gets to altitude it just sits there with very high AOAs and then it takes forever to accelerate. You don't want that for this trip. Climb it fast out of the 20s on up. Remember, for the most part that wing is a 30 year old design. Also, I know baggage space is very limited, but rent some large O2 takes for pax use. That is really the only way to do the trip comfortably. Rent those tanks and make sure the valve behind the captains head is turned off, as you don't want the pax suxing down your O2 if the cabin gives. Get them their own bottles. Also remember that even if the cabin gives out over the water, as long as the RH engine is working, you have all the pressurization that you need. It might get hot in there, but hey, at least you are alive. Don't accept some early decent. If fuel is tight, plan a flight idle decent at 250 Knots to stay up as long as possible. Just program the decent into the box (If it's Honeywell nz2000s, tell the box what runway you are going to land on, then RH line select that fix. It should be the last item on the flight plan. Now put in the altitude of the runway threshhold +50 feet and ref +10. To go to that fix direct at any point in the flight and have it set up a decent as you programmed, hit Direct to then Line select the right hand side of the fix, which is where you entered the info of alt and speed. It's just takes you direct to the fix vertically as you have it programmed instead of just horizontally. The purple glide spope bug comes up and if you want to wait a little longer, then just dont follow it until you are ok with it. Just keep hitting Dir. to and line selecting the RH side and it will do that for you. Lots of Honeywell guys dont know that trick, but you do now!) After the boss sees how bad the trip over suxed, as soon as he gets home make sure you are with him to select the new paint and interior for the DA2000, DA50 or CL300 that should really be making this trip. None of all this hassle trying to squeeze a few extra miles out of this thing. Now, sit back at .70 and watch the water go by.

Ive never flown in a hawker, and now, I dont think I want to

 

[BOZO]

This is getting insane. If it is that much of a stretch should you really be trying? It's like taking a LJ60 to Hawaii...some do it..some don't. But I've never been able to get an acceptable answer from those that do as to what happens if there's a press. problem past the PNR. Hope you brought your rubber duckie!!!

I'm all for pushing the limits of your aircraft...it's one thing when it's TEB-LAX....but it's a whole new ball game from OAK-PHNL.

Reminds me of a thread a few months back that asked about taking a Citation X to Hawaii. "M.92 to SFO and then put em' on the airlines." That was one of the best answers of all time!

Of course the sales dept's are going to say you can do it...perhaps you could offer the nice salesman a seat on the bosses shiny new Hawker for the first trip over? Surely he'd jump at the chance right?

My .02

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

OK guys, I'll open myself up again.

If an airplane is able to fly X amount of hours or X amount of miles, then any pro should be able to do that. Safely. Alot of pilots like to second guess the books or the regs. You know the type, they add their own little bit here or there. Are these guys really safer? Can anyone show me how someone doing what the books say an airplane will do has had that get them in an accident (or make one worse)? I've flown every jet airplane I've had the pleasure down to destination + 45 on fuel and down to 200 and 1/2 for wx. You're boss may not need another airplane, he may need another captain.

And just to save you all some typing: Yes I'm a jerk, yes I'm unsafe, yes I don't know what I'm talking about, blah, blah, blah.

Ace

 

[G100driver]

OK guys, I'll open myself up again.

If an airplane is able to fly X amount of hours or X amount of miles, then any pro should be able to do that. Safely. Alot of pilots like to second guess the books or the regs. You know the type, they add their own little bit here or there. Are these guys really safer? Can anyone show me how someone doing what the books say an airplane will do has had that get them in an accident (or make one worse)? I've flown every jet airplane I've had the pleasure down to destination + 45 on fuel and down to 200 and 1/2 for wx. You're boss may not need another airplane, he may need another captain.

And just to save you all some typing: Yes I'm a jerk, yes I'm unsafe, yes I don't know what I'm talking about, blah, blah, blah.

Ace

No man your not a jerk at all or unsafe or know what you are talking about. You are a pro .... just one who believes that this is an acceptable mission.

How are you planning to secure those extra bottles BTW? Unless you can carry these flamable O2 bottles in a secure fashion then you as I am sure you know, not legal. Also, how were you planning to keep your passengers from freezing to death at FL240 after the depressurization?

You do not get paid to say yes, you get paid to make smart decisions. Going to HI in an airplane that does not meet the criteria to make a safe crossing is not one of them. Blah blah blah.

Land with airport -alternate + 45 after I have been overland with lots of alternates under me no problem. Go to HI and hope everthing works out .... no way. Be prepared to turn around at 2 waypoints out after leave MRY if everthing is not working out.

If the boss does not like it, ask him to take the airlines or find another captain. With any luck, one that one will not kill him. This is a pretty unforgiving business.

 

[Stryker]

Ive done it 4 times in a Hawker 800xp, I have only had to srub one trip because of wind. If you have a wet foot print you dont go, I have never landed in Hawaii with less than 2200 pounds of fuel. A good rule of them is if you average wid component is more than 65 knots on the nose you might want to postpone it for a couple of days untill the wind drops. Oh and Raytheon offers the large O2 tanks we have them installed on both of ours

 

[G100driver]

Ive done it 4 times in a Hawker 800xp, I have only had to srub one trip because of wind. If you have a wet foot print you dont go, I have never landed in Hawaii with less than 2200 pounds of fuel. A good rule of them is if you average wid component is more than 65 knots on the nose you might want to postpone it for a couple of days untill the wind drops.

? At 60 knots of headwind how does your DP senerio play out?

What altitude do you decend to?
Do you carry extra O2?

 

[Stryker]

We have the optional Big o2 tanks and WE launch out of Monterey, No Bay area delays and the fuel fast. They send us right up to altitude .70 the whole way.
15000, ft for the loss of press alt

 

[G100driver]

That is good that you have the big 02. I hear guys tell me about there extra 02 and just shake my head in dis-belief.

 

[G100driver]

BTW another question. Ever have any problems being a speed bump in the track on the way to HI? Do have to use odd times ect?

 

[Stryker]

They have never said anything, but I am sure they put us in our own little slow ass area. Its never kept us from our requested altittude, we are defanatly the slowest thing out there. I know a pilot who ferried a Starship from Monterey to Australia that is nuts, bring on the bladder tanks, there 1st stop was in Hawaii

 

[G100driver]

Fun. Thanks for the info.

Nice to see that guys are doing it correctly. The only ones that I have ever spoken with about this are the fools trying force a trip.
Cheers.

 

[KSUPILOT]

Thanks, guys! Did not think I would cause such a riot over this. We have a Hawker 800xp that we have crosed the NAT with. Now I have been picking the brain of the captain of the airplane and he said he would not do it. Now that I know that it can be done I guess I have to go try it and be an idiot and a rebel!

Haooy flying and leave no foot prints. And oh by the way if you depressurize in a hawker it reall does not get too cold it you open the flt deck heat. actually gets too damn hot! Learned from experience.

 

[thatpilotguy]

What is the durations of the O2 if you have the extra O2 bottle installed?

And how many pax and bags can you get away with carrying?

Anyone done it in an 800XP with the winglets yet? I would love to see the time to climb and fuel remaining numbers on that.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Also, how were you planning to keep your passengers from freezing to death at FL240 after the depressurization?

Hawkers have a Flight Deck Heat Valve that will keep things plenty warm at 240, 340, or even 410. Grabs raw bleed air off the Rh engine, then just filters it and dumps is directly into the cabin. Serves as secondary pressurization as well.

 

[Lead Sled]

Hawkers have a Flight Deck Heat Valve that will keep things plenty warm at 240, 240, or even 410. Grabs raw bleed air off the Rh engine, then just filters it and dumps is directly into the cabin. Serves as secondary pressurization as well.

G100...
You know, just like Emergency Pressurization on the G100. It will "toast your posties"

'Sled

 

[Lead Sled]

We use custom data provided by a company - Aeronautical Data Systems. They'll work up custom long-range fuel and oxygen procedures based upon your actual equipment and capacities. It's good stuff and worth the expense.

A Hawker to HI? Huevos, hombre; that takes huevos.

'Sled

 

[HawkerF/O]

G100...
You know, just like Emergency Pressurization on the G100. It will "toast your posties"

'Sled

The nice thing about the Hawker is you can control the amount of heat coming in, it is not just on or off. It's is controlled by a 3 position spring loaded rocker switch. 1st position is closed, 2nd position holds what you have selected, and the 3rd position (spring loaded) you have to hold the switch there until the valve opens to your desired level then let the switch go and it defaults to position #2. If it gets too hot, go to off for a few seconds and the valve will close a little or a lot, depending on how long you have the switch in the off position. It's about a 12 second valve either on or off, but you can control it and that makes a trip like this doable

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

I have been picking the brain of the captain of the airplane and he said he would not do it.

This should be quite simple. Many not-so-great pilots like to sit around and theorize about all this cr@p just because they really don't know what they're talking about. Just like G100 says. It's simple math and perfomance. If your captain wants to turn down that trip, just ask him to show you why, in the performance books or the regs. My only last comment, don't go with a wet footprint.

Ace

 

[FracCapt]

We have the optional Big o2 tanks and WE launch out of Monterey, No Bay area delays and the fuel fast. They send us right up to altitude .70 the whole way.
15000, ft for the loss of press alt

Below is a performance plan run by Jeppesen for an 800XP. It shows an average of 49kts of headwind, climbing straight to 380, then stepping to 400 when able, and cruising at M.70. 4 pax. Departing SFO, 120lb fuel burn startup to takeoff. Landing with 1400lbs. Not what I call a good reserve for flying 2100 miles overwater.

PLAN XXXX KSFO TO PHNL 80XP M70/F IFR 08/23/05
NONSTOP COMPUTED 0256Z FOR ETD 1300Z PROGS 2218NWS NXXXXX LBS

FUEL TIME DIST ARRIVE TAKEOFF LAND AV PLD OPNLWT
DEST PHNL 008481 06/06 2100 1906Z 027180 018699 000800 016500
RESV 000000 00/00
ALTN 000000 00/00 0000 Z
HOLD 000000 00/00
REQD 008481 06/06
TAXI 000120
XTRA 001399 01/12
TOTL 010000 07/18
CLEARANCE



KSFO..NORMM..BEBOP..36N30..32N40..26N50..CLUTS MAGGI3 PHNL

WIND M049 MXSH 2/36N30
TAS 407 FL 380/32N40 400


Now....just for kicks....lets see the return for the same time and situation.

PLAN XXXX PHNL TO KSFO 80XP M70/F IFR 08/23/05
NONSTOP COMPUTED 0305Z FOR ETD 1300Z PROGS 2218NWS NXXXXX LBS

FUEL TIME DIST ARRIVE TAKEOFF LAND AV PLD OPNLWT
DEST KSFO 007146 05/00 2101 1800Z 027180 020034 000800 016500
RESV 000000 00/00
ALTN 000000 00/00 0000 Z
HOLD 000000 00/00
REQD 007146 05/00
TAXI 000120
XTRA 002734 02/13
TOTL 010000 07/12
CLEARANCE



PHNL MKK4 CLUTS..26N50..31N40..35N30..KSFO

WIND P047 MXSH 3/35N30
TAS 403 FL 390

Hmmm....landing with 2700lbs going eastbound with an average 47kt tailwind...and you say that you can do it going westbound with up to a 65kt headwind? Ok.....whatever you say...