Hard work doesn't pay in Avation, unless you're a U.N.D. Grad!

[jarhead]

This thread started by a rant against those people who went to a 141 university (UND) and who used “daddy’s” money to become educated.
The term “daddy’s” is used in a contemptuous fashion. Perhaps he did not have the good fortune to have parents whose desire was to help their progeny become successful. Is that the ‘reason’ for the apparent contempt? WTF?

Don’t an awful lot of kids in this country have their parent’s support in getting a post high school education? Doctors, lawyers, teachers, chemistry majors, etc etc, all have parental support for their education when the parents have the means to provide help for their children. For some reason, this hits a nerve in the thread starter that smells an awful lot like rank jealousy.

BTW, I am NOT rich (and that is not a dirty word), but I was in fact, able to provide my son with the financial support for four years at UND, where he graduated with a B.S. in Aeronautical Science. And yes, by the time the blood letting from the checking accounts had stopped the hemorrhaging, it was in excess of 100K for the B.S. and all the ratings. This effort (the financial one) was shared by myself, my wife, my son’s grandparents, and by my son himself. We ALL contributed to the financial part of the effort; my son contributed 100% to the academic effort. It was not easy for any of us! Upon graduation from UND, he COMPETED with 135 other UND grads for one of 30 new instructor slots at the university that fall, and was successful in landing one of those CFI positions there. Yes, he earned sh!t wages there, and stayed with it until he had 1300/250 hours, and 2-1/2 years later, he was able to get an interview with Comair, and was ultimately hired. Sh!t wages once again for the first year, but things eventually got better on the pay front, and by good fortune and lucky timing, Comair grew at a rapid rate back in the late 90’s and he got his Captain upgrade in just 3 years. Then, just a year after his upgrade, more stress with a three month long strike. Life goes on, and at this time he seems pretty well off financially. This is good. Why does the thread starter seem to resent it that a parent would support their child’s success? Most normal adults that I know are not only happy to support their children; it is a main focus for meaning during that stage of their lives.

I too, am a former active Marine. I did not get a college degree, and more than anything, I wanted life to be better for my son than it was for me. So I supported his desire to become an airline pilot as best I could. My son is 33 years old, and he calls me “Dad”. That makes me happy! He stopped calling me “daddy” around the age of 5. I am 63 years old now and happily retired, having a cup that is as full as I could want or expect.

I am very confused as to the contempt this thread starter has for parents who chose to support their children. He’ll do a lot better if he “loses the attitude” that he is somehow more entitled because he’s a former Jarhead. That isn’t a ‘pass’ for the rest of life’s rigors. Life ain’t fair, and it never has been. But, it is real. Adapt and survive….or perish.

Had my son wanted to be a professional baseball player, I would have supported that effort with just as much vigor.

That’s the end of my ‘rant’.

 

[coolyokeluke]

MTNJAM I've instructed for 2.5 years and been doing 135 stuff for one. Paid my own way like you did. I'm 30 with a military background. And yeah sometimes I'm jealous of the breaks some people get (I was expecting to see a rant against women/minorities here also) and I complain sometimes too. But I had a good idea of what I was getting into. I do know that even though I've been struggling financially for quite a while doing this I'm happier than I was at any of my prior jobs.

The reason we are underpaid for what we do is just economics. Too many people want to do this job. I think that's why plumbers or computer nerds can make good money; there isn't a large percentage of people who dream of doing that for a living, there's not so much competition. I'm sure if we all banded together some group would undercut us in very short order.

What I did to survive was work other jobs. At one point including instructing I had five part time jobs with me spending most of my time (and only earning a third of my wages for the year) flight instructing. And I had to move to get the 135 job too. Perhaps you could put that diesel experience to use somehow.

I had a former marine flight instructor. He was tough and had high standards and that's why I stuck with him but he didn't yell or bang clipboards. I think that kind of stress is counter-effective. Most students (all though it doens't seem that way to us) really are trying hard and put a lot of stress on themselves.

I was certainly frustrated at having to instruct for such a long time. I met a furloughed United guy at a party. He emphasized to me that most pilots (at least successful ones) have a perfectionist/control freak aspect of their personalities. We work hard and like to think we're in control of where we're going. But in reality we no control over our careers. We have to work hard and be prepared for when the fleeting opportunities present themselves and then sit back and enjoy what you're doing in the meantime. It's all timing.

 

[vetteracer]

If I were you I would pack my bags and move. Move somewhere were the cost of living is reasonable and were the population is not neck to neck. 135 jobs are out there.

You are not alone. I struggled and clawed my way to were I am today. I worked full time during college. I commuted 120 mile to go to college every day through rain snow and the sunshine. I sold almost everything I owned to pay for my education.

I could not get decent student loans, had to take out personal loans, drove junky cars, etc.

The point is that everyone has a sad story. I chalk mine up as experience and it made me a survivor. There will always be the privileged type. I hope someday that I can be successful enough to provide money for my children’s education and help them get going.

There are a lot of UND grads that leveraged themselves to pay for the "best training in the world" and once in the real world found out they were just another turd in the bowl. Most of the UND people I met did the same route I did to build hours and get hired. And all of them are peed off that they have 100K to pay back when they thought they would be on the space shuttle by now.

I have no grudge for anyone who happen to catch a few easy breaks. I bet when you had 500 hours and were offered a commuter job you would have taken it as well.

I found that many of the commuter guys are married and have a spouse to augment the income, which would at least make the first year bearable.

Hating those that have will not help you out. I am sure you are a pretty level headed guy that has been building steam up for the last few years and had to let go. Now, lets get back to the problem at hand and get motivated on your next move.

Mark

 

[Mtnjam]

Oakum shows no respect

I have definetely hit a soft spot with many people here. Oakum Boy especially. Why did I drop out of high school? It's called not having a parent to put food in your mouth or clothes on your back at the age of 16. It's called Reality and it's something most "Suburban" Americans are unaware of. The posts I have made are generalizations. I've never gone for or taken a stab at anyone personally.
I'm checking out of this thread. It's like talking talking about politics or religion at a fancy dinner party. Thanks to those with positive advice and thanks to those who see my points. Enough said......

 

[f9driver]

Mtnjam

I came from the fleet into the NavCad program. Too bad they don't have that program anymore. I would probably hire you if I were on an interview board but **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** MJ you are going to have to learn how to spell and quit whacking students with a clipboard. lol.

 

[I.P. Freley]

I guess I missed the part where "high school dropout" became "overachiever".

JHC...

 

[sleepy]

When I left the USMC way back in 1993 and started my flying career the airlines were not hiring. Instead of whinning about it I started working as a CFI. I made $10K my first year. That job lead to Part 135 freight (pays was better), that lead to corporate flying (much better pay), and that lead to two different airline jobs and a furlough. Now I am headed back to corporate to stay. If you are not willing to take some chances and pay some dues in this business, you might as well get out now.


If this business is not working out for you, who do you really have to blame? Yourself or some college kid?

 

[CatYaaak]

QUOTE]

I salute your service, but having attended UND in the days prior to the "bridge/ab initio/whatever-the-he11-you-call-them" programs, I can say that at least then everyone wasn't a rich kid. I certainly wasn't, and after graduation it was make your own way, which I'm guessing still holds true for the majority of grads. Back then I seem to recall the commuters (they were still called that back then) were looking for 1500/200 as competitive mins, not that they seemed that appealing to me. Some of my friends instructed for years, and sold their sisters on the street for multi-time. This isn't a "when I was young" thing, but.....

...I'm just saying that the frustration of not having these mins isn't new, but yours is no doubt accentuated by looking at it from the perspective of someone who's been out in the world at 30, not out of the college womb at 22. It ALWAYS seems like someone with less is getting ahead, and some do, but you yourself will seem and be like that (less-experienced) in the eyes of someone else when your turn comes (which it will unless you hit the wrong guy with a clipboard). Sure these low-timers get some jobs, but not the majority of them. Good experience still outweighs what they've got...so keep getting it.

Go easy on the UNDers for not digging foxholes....E-tools are useless in a ND winter when the frostline is 4 feet deep, and the military-use holes in use around there were already spoken for by the Minuteman 111s. Besides, when it's -40 and the wind's whipping, why sit out there and fight...I mean...that's what the ICBMs and B-1s are for! And with it being close to the exact center of the North American continent, over a thousand miles in any direction to the nearest ocean, it would seem silly to put Marines there. That being said, my friends and I certainly would have welcomed being issued machine guns to round-out our extensive-but-more-mundane hunting arsenals. Lord knows we tried.

 

[rvsm410]

Dreaming of the Majors!!!! Keep Dreaming!

This is a simple problem with few answers and the airlines have all of us by the short hairs, and they know it.....

As long as the supply of pilots, F/A's and dispatchers, and to a lesser degree MX'ers, keep buying the schools crap about making a fortune working for a major airline, there will always be more people than there are jobs.....which means they can pay what they want, PERIOD!



Do some better research into this profession before you make the choice to go after it, it does not pay well....repeat::OES NOT PAY WELL....



It is my opinion that most "NEW" people, (meaning entering this industry in the last 3 years) will work their entire airline career at a Regional Carrier....PERIOD...get use to this idea....A very VERY VERY small percentage of people will actually survive long enough to make it to a SO CALLED Major Airline...what ever that means these days, it changes every day....



The seniority system ends up locking people into their respective companies to the dying day it closes the doors...the airlines love this built in loyalty!! Only until recent events have people been willing to start over at a new airline....very sad, but better to do it now than wait and not be competitive with others that are out of work.....



There is an unbelievable amount of high time pilots out of work, very experienced dispatchers out of work, all of which may get called back, and would most certainly have a better shot of working for a "Major Concern" before ANY OF THE GREENIES will today.....Just think 50 to 70 seaters....be happy if you get that opportunity.....think years and years to make a 100K annually...and long term repayment of those loans....just be happy you are doing what you love to do! If not, then get out, run as fast as you can to something else....this biz will kill you if you don't love it....



Finally, the ONLY other way I see the pay structures changing at all over the next 10 to 15 years is if the new people STOP TAKING THE JOBS....if the Majority of people did this, then the airlines would have to offer more to entice people to apply...Talk about dreaming: I'm a realist and understand this won't happen...to many kids just dont see it, or believe it......but you get my jest.



I have said it before here and I'll say it again....I have had recruiters calling me to offer regional dispatch jobs and I have told many of them that I won't work for those silly fixed union salaries.....as far as I'm concerned those dispatchers sold themselves down the river and really have nothing to grip about, they voted it in....

At my age, experience, and education I feel I should be hired at a higher pay rate than a 23 year old fresh out of school, but this is not reality...So I am doing the corporate stuff.

My suggestion to you is to go look at something else and instruct on the side...or go into the military again and get more flight time..come back when you have 3000+ hours of turbine/jet time, you might be competitive by then....but maybe not, depending on how flooded the market gets if USAir and United go under...then you can just about forget it anyway...you wont live long enough to hit the next cycle of hiring.....



That’s just my opinion, I could be wrong!



Col. Bill Williamson USAF (ret) (age 43)

 

[Mtnjam]

Airlines not so bright

The more I learn and know about the airlines, the less I like them. And you're right they would offer more incentive for hires if people were not "pilot whores." Unfortunately it will never happen.
Therefore I think I'll spend my entire career flying Charter, or even better corporate if I can ever get the time they are looking for, however you don't get Turbine time as a CFI and these Corporate places won't even really look at you unless you have 2500TT. 1,000 Turbine, and 500 MEL. It's a big viscious cycle of a dog chasing his tale. One person mentioned instructing for a place that had a 135 operation that they let their instructors sit right seat. That's a nice gig, but if you work for a straight up flight school, it's really a dead end because it leads nowhere other than having enough flight time to get hired somewhere, but not enough income to pay for, or support a move to another place.
Military is a good idea for flight time and just overall experience and fun, however I am already past that age cutoff. That horse has already been kicked. The industry is definetely in a slump and right about now your idea of having the 9-5 job and instructing with one or two students looks might inviting.