Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
Hard work doesn't pay in Avation, unless you're a U.N.D. Grad!
- Thread starter Mtnjam
- Start date
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
BoilerUP
Citation style...
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2003
- Posts
- 5,311
Spinn555 said:
http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/9107495.htm
This isn't exactly a good thing to be talking about - I hope the kid is okay. Sounds like a solo night cross-country perhaps?
Other than a nice side current, this incident does nothing to support the cause of those concerned (jealous?) about lower-time pilots, nor does it indict the training at UND.
FedEx has totaled out a few airframes in recent years, in some good day VFR too. What was that about casting stones again...?
The reason regional compensation, and very soon to be "major" airline pay is crap is because pilots line up and trip over each other to fly airplanes for what the companies want to pay. Look at JetBlue. Now highly profitable but wants to pay regional payscale (and $2k a year towards a 401k retirement) for a CAPTAIN of a 100 seat airliner. Well, you know what? Watch the pilots line up at Dave's desk and say "yes, sir, yes, sir, three bags full" and "where can I get some of the kool-aid" to get that job.
My advice to you is get out of this vocation and find a profession that you can be happy in and make enough to have a secure retirement and maybe some left over to fly recreationally . . . . which is a lot more fun than whoring yourself out as a company cost unit.
My advice to you is get out of this vocation and find a profession that you can be happy in and make enough to have a secure retirement and maybe some left over to fly recreationally . . . . which is a lot more fun than whoring yourself out as a company cost unit.
TonyC
Frederick's Happy Face
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2002
- Posts
- 3,050
I doubt that's possible. With the attitude displayed here, I feel certain he'll be just as if not more unhappy about any other vocation he might pursue. It's the ATTITUDE that needs an adjustment here, not the industry.Draginass said:
(OK, OK, the industry needs some help, too, but that's another story.)
(I'm glad someone picked up on the fact he's teaching Ensigns, but can't spell it (Enson) and that he must be a real charmer with the clipboard on the back of the head and the elbow to the gut. Which part of FofI did THAT come from?!?!? What a joy!)
Hey guess what mtnjam? Many, many more low time university grads have just recently been hired at the regionals while you were on your a** whining on the internet about how frickin hard your life has been! Learn what the phrase "soft skills" means. Once you do maybe doors will open, good luck.
Signed,
A 1100/200 hour UND grad flying for Eagle
Signed,
A 1100/200 hour UND grad flying for Eagle
capt. megadeth
Metal Momma!
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2003
- Posts
- 2,898
Posted by labbats: "I have the same amount of hours as you do, Mtnjam. After seeing regionals for what they are, and not being able to stand looking at a 5 year upgrade just so I can babysit some 500 hour pilot has made me strongly consider 135 flying."
Oh my God! You have a little over 1000 hours and YOU are going to have to "babysit"? WTFO?
Oh my God! You have a little over 1000 hours and YOU are going to have to "babysit"? WTFO?
bobbysamd
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
Aviation hiring sucks
Thanks for your military service. Anyone who has served in the Marines automatically has my respect.
I have not read each and every post in this thread, but I have a few general comments.
For one thing, despite all of your efforts, you just do not have enough time to be competitive. Even during the good times of a few years ago, you have still been light on time. Somewhat competitive numbers for the regionals these days would be at least 1500 total-500 multi and your ATP. Probably more realistic numbers would be at 2500 hours total, at least 500 of multi, ATP and scheduled experience.
Second, you have a four-year college degree. Although I personally like an Aeronautical Science degree, all that matters is you have the degree. As long as you have the degree, which you do, you are at no disadvantage.
Third, aviation hiring sucks. Except for the '60s briefly, there has never been a pilot shortage. Qualified candidates must outnumber available jobs by at least 300 to 1. Also, there are people who are always less qualified than you who get the jobs you want.
Avation hiring is extremely unfair. Most people here are familiar with my story, so I ask them to bear with me while I relate it to you briefly.
I was 36 when I decided to change careers. This was in the mid '80s, in the midst of a great hiring boom. I already had been flying for four years, had all my ratings except for multi, and had earned my B.S.B.A. years before. Two friends had been hired by the commuters, so, I thought if they could be hired, I could be hired. I received advice that I wasn't too old, so I earned my multi and MEI, and started applying.
I applied everywhere, including freight and regionals. I had about 900 hours and 50 of multi, so, I thought, with a hiring boom I might be called. At least two regionals, Mesa and SkyWest, only required 1000 total-100 multi, so I thought they might call.
It took me ten months, but in 1988 I finally was hired at ERAU to instruct. I was overjoyed. I earned my ATP and less than nine (long) months later, I got into the multis. I continued to apply to regionals. Finally, a year after I got into the Riddle multis, with about 2730 total and 630 of multi, I finally had interviews, with WestAir/United Express, Mesa, Eagle and Comair, and a cattle call with Express I. I was not hired. I should point out that standard regional mins of the day were 1500-total 500-multi, so I more than exceeded the minimums.
I was pushing 40. However, my Riddle colleagues, who also had four-year degrees, but with less time and who were 25 or younger, were getting interviews and hired at the same places where I was ignored or rejected. It does not take a pilot or rocket scientist to determine the problem. I recognize that perhaps a bad interview(er) screwed me, but people who do bad interviews are still hired while people who do good interviews are not always hired.
I continued to apply to at least two regionals for a total seven years, receiving polite "we will keep your application on file" postcards or nothing. Usually, it was nothing. I had a former student who was hired at SkyWest walk in materials for me. I included another application fee check, just in case something had fallen through the cracks. I was 42 by that time. My check was returned.
I know of others who have had similar experiences. The point is, again, that aviation hiring is unfair. You are thirty, so age discrimination is a non-issue for you. Having said that, I have to say that until you build competitive quals, you cannot really complain. Work on building your quals and contacts. Moreover, I would question the veracity of the great numbers of these so-called bridge program grads who are being hired. In that light, face it, you are not one of them and you must maximize what you have. I second Resume Writer's comments that you need to present how your experiences would set you apart from others.
Good luck with your plans.
Thanks for your military service. Anyone who has served in the Marines automatically has my respect.
I have not read each and every post in this thread, but I have a few general comments.
For one thing, despite all of your efforts, you just do not have enough time to be competitive. Even during the good times of a few years ago, you have still been light on time. Somewhat competitive numbers for the regionals these days would be at least 1500 total-500 multi and your ATP. Probably more realistic numbers would be at 2500 hours total, at least 500 of multi, ATP and scheduled experience.
Second, you have a four-year college degree. Although I personally like an Aeronautical Science degree, all that matters is you have the degree. As long as you have the degree, which you do, you are at no disadvantage.
Third, aviation hiring sucks. Except for the '60s briefly, there has never been a pilot shortage. Qualified candidates must outnumber available jobs by at least 300 to 1. Also, there are people who are always less qualified than you who get the jobs you want.
Avation hiring is extremely unfair. Most people here are familiar with my story, so I ask them to bear with me while I relate it to you briefly.
I was 36 when I decided to change careers. This was in the mid '80s, in the midst of a great hiring boom. I already had been flying for four years, had all my ratings except for multi, and had earned my B.S.B.A. years before. Two friends had been hired by the commuters, so, I thought if they could be hired, I could be hired. I received advice that I wasn't too old, so I earned my multi and MEI, and started applying.
I applied everywhere, including freight and regionals. I had about 900 hours and 50 of multi, so, I thought, with a hiring boom I might be called. At least two regionals, Mesa and SkyWest, only required 1000 total-100 multi, so I thought they might call.
It took me ten months, but in 1988 I finally was hired at ERAU to instruct. I was overjoyed. I earned my ATP and less than nine (long) months later, I got into the multis. I continued to apply to regionals. Finally, a year after I got into the Riddle multis, with about 2730 total and 630 of multi, I finally had interviews, with WestAir/United Express, Mesa, Eagle and Comair, and a cattle call with Express I. I was not hired. I should point out that standard regional mins of the day were 1500-total 500-multi, so I more than exceeded the minimums.
I was pushing 40. However, my Riddle colleagues, who also had four-year degrees, but with less time and who were 25 or younger, were getting interviews and hired at the same places where I was ignored or rejected. It does not take a pilot or rocket scientist to determine the problem. I recognize that perhaps a bad interview(er) screwed me, but people who do bad interviews are still hired while people who do good interviews are not always hired.
I continued to apply to at least two regionals for a total seven years, receiving polite "we will keep your application on file" postcards or nothing. Usually, it was nothing. I had a former student who was hired at SkyWest walk in materials for me. I included another application fee check, just in case something had fallen through the cracks. I was 42 by that time. My check was returned.
I know of others who have had similar experiences. The point is, again, that aviation hiring is unfair. You are thirty, so age discrimination is a non-issue for you. Having said that, I have to say that until you build competitive quals, you cannot really complain. Work on building your quals and contacts. Moreover, I would question the veracity of the great numbers of these so-called bridge program grads who are being hired. In that light, face it, you are not one of them and you must maximize what you have. I second Resume Writer's comments that you need to present how your experiences would set you apart from others.
Good luck with your plans.
Last edited:
mesaba2425
Hmmmmm
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2002
- Posts
- 280
mesaba2425
Hmmmmm
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2002
- Posts
- 280
I hope your joking but if you're not, I'm guessing that has something to do with it. No captain wants some idiot like that sitting next to them. And when, I mean IF, you ever make captain, no FO will want to fly with you. Change your attitude and I bet you'll have better luck.Mtnjam said:
Gulfstream 200
Database Expert
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2002
- Posts
- 4,574
TopGun-MAV
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2004
- Posts
- 125
bobbysamd
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
PFT Flamebait
Speaking of promises, read on:
TAB Express Airline announces, for a limited time; FULL REBATE OF TRAINING COSTS!
Co-pilots, with no experience or with ratings, who begin training in August or September of 2004 and sign a 4-year commitment to fly for TAB Express Airline, will receive repayment of the entire cost of training at the end of the four year period. The requirements to receive the full repayment at the end of the four years are:
Maintain a 3.0 GPA.
Must pass the commercial checkride.
Must pass airline indoc and IOE.
Pass the Captain upgrade checkride.
Successfully complete the 4-year commitment.
Pay is above industry average. Upgrades to Captain are at 1200 hours. Classes are filling up quickly. Call toll-free at 866-785-0092 now for more information.
TAB Express has recognized an industry-wide pilot turnover of 60% for most small commuter airlines, resulting in substantially high training costs. By offering this incentive, TAB Express Airline hopes to build a solid four year pilot base.
What a deal!!! Not!!! What a bunch of malarkey. How do you spell "fraud?" One way to spell is is "T-A-B."
You're a real expert, aren't you, "Mav?" Aren't you a big time TAB Express P-F-T FO by now?TopGun-MAV said:
Shouldn't that be spelled "skipped"? Haven't they learned you English at TAB, "Mav?" "Mav," you said two months ago that you would no longer post on this board. Just like P-F-T, another broken promise.
Speaking of promises, read on:
TAB Express Airline announces, for a limited time; FULL REBATE OF TRAINING COSTS!
Co-pilots, with no experience or with ratings, who begin training in August or September of 2004 and sign a 4-year commitment to fly for TAB Express Airline, will receive repayment of the entire cost of training at the end of the four year period. The requirements to receive the full repayment at the end of the four years are:
Maintain a 3.0 GPA.
Must pass the commercial checkride.
Must pass airline indoc and IOE.
Pass the Captain upgrade checkride.
Successfully complete the 4-year commitment.
Pay is above industry average. Upgrades to Captain are at 1200 hours. Classes are filling up quickly. Call toll-free at 866-785-0092 now for more information.
TAB Express has recognized an industry-wide pilot turnover of 60% for most small commuter airlines, resulting in substantially high training costs. By offering this incentive, TAB Express Airline hopes to build a solid four year pilot base.
What a deal!!! Not!!! What a bunch of malarkey. How do you spell "fraud?" One way to spell is is "T-A-B."
Last edited:
First of all, I'll add my thanks for your service to all the others expressing similar feelings. Second, please don't stereotype college flight students like that. I attend an aviation college, and many of my friends will be paying off student loans until the day they die. Third, even if someone receives financial help in attaining their ratings, that doesn't diminish the quality of their experience, since becoming a pilot still requires a lot of hard work and study, and most of the people who think they can fork over daddy's money and walk away a qualified pilot usually has another thing coming to them (I've seen it happen).
Yes, there are some who happily spend their parents' money until they get a cushy job, there are others who are truly humbled by the help they receive, and promise to work hard and earn their ratings in exchange for the help, then go out and build time and look for low-paying jobs just like everyone else. All I'm saying is don't assume anyone coming out of collegiate aviation is a snotty know-it-all who hasn't worked for anything. We're as varied as the pilot community in general, and saying you don't want to "baby-sit" us as we "learn how to be a pilot after spending Daddy's fortune" says more about your character than it does about ours.
There's always somebody out there who has it easier than you. Always.
And by the way, I grew up in the suburbs, don't think we don't know what "reality" is.
Yes, there are some who happily spend their parents' money until they get a cushy job, there are others who are truly humbled by the help they receive, and promise to work hard and earn their ratings in exchange for the help, then go out and build time and look for low-paying jobs just like everyone else. All I'm saying is don't assume anyone coming out of collegiate aviation is a snotty know-it-all who hasn't worked for anything. We're as varied as the pilot community in general, and saying you don't want to "baby-sit" us as we "learn how to be a pilot after spending Daddy's fortune" says more about your character than it does about ours.
There's always somebody out there who has it easier than you. Always.
And by the way, I grew up in the suburbs, don't think we don't know what "reality" is.
Pre-Pensacola
For those of you who have difficulties with my training strategies, please keep in mind I do train "Military" Pilots. Yes Military Pilots!! My civilian students do not get this treatment. If you haven't trained a Military Pilot, then you have no understanding of what my job entails. Thankyou and enough said...... I can't believe this Thread is still going on,and on and on and on.
For those of you who have difficulties with my training strategies, please keep in mind I do train "Military" Pilots. Yes Military Pilots!! My civilian students do not get this treatment. If you haven't trained a Military Pilot, then you have no understanding of what my job entails. Thankyou and enough said...... I can't believe this Thread is still going on,and on and on and on.
TonyC
Frederick's Happy Face
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2002
- Posts
- 3,050
You only knock military pilots in the back of the head with the clipboard, eh?Mtnjam said:
As it happens, I DO have quite a bit of experience teaching military pilots. I've taught quite a few pedestrians to fly Air Force jets, and I can't think of a SINGLE, SOLITARY time where your described method was appropriate, or would have been effective. All I have left to say on the matter is you're pretty darn lucky you haven't had that thing shoved right back in your face. Maybe one day you'll forget and try that on a civilian student, and we'll read about the results on the NTSB site.
Muddauber
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2002
- Posts
- 112
BoilerUP
Citation style...
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2003
- Posts
- 5,311
Soloed three Air Force IFT 2LTs, and passed one on his Final Prog before his checkride. I've gotten a few instrument current, and checked a couple out in company aircraft. All were suprisingly humble, especially the ex-Naval aviator with 3000+ helo time and 2000+ T-34 instructor time that just wanted a 172 checkout. None of them needed corporal punishment in the airplane.Mtnjam said:
Been there, done that, got that t-shirt. There are thousands of major and regional airline captains that "train" military pilots too, once they hit the civvy side. What do you want, a cookie?
R
R0NIN
Pilots are losers
I have been reading this web page for almost 10 years..... 80% of the people on this board are huge losers... including the resume writer gal, and GulfStream 2000 ( I've seen some pretty bad threads ripping on other people).
Mtnjam, don't ask many people on here for advise. I mean, C'mon, look at the response gulfstream 2000 gave you.....What a self righteous POS.... obviously you can see what spending too much time in a cockpit will do to your social skills... Your want to work with someone like that!!!!! HE IS A HUGE LOSER.... I wouldn't hire him to fly my HS 125... EVER!!!!!! I only come here when I'm bored off my arse!!!
Later Losers, hope your pay check treats you well
-Ronin, out
I have been reading this web page for almost 10 years..... 80% of the people on this board are huge losers... including the resume writer gal, and GulfStream 2000 ( I've seen some pretty bad threads ripping on other people).
Mtnjam, don't ask many people on here for advise. I mean, C'mon, look at the response gulfstream 2000 gave you.....What a self righteous POS.... obviously you can see what spending too much time in a cockpit will do to your social skills... Your want to work with someone like that!!!!! HE IS A HUGE LOSER.... I wouldn't hire him to fly my HS 125... EVER!!!!!! I only come here when I'm bored off my arse!!!
Later Losers, hope your pay check treats you well
-Ronin, out
bobbysamd
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
Constructive comments v. constructive comments
The above comments certainly were constructive and furthered the discussion. Why don't you offer something positive to offset all the negativity?
The fact that Resume Writer has garnered so many testimonials says everything about her abilities and expertise. As we say in law, res ipsa loquitor, or "the thing speaks for itself."
The above comments certainly were constructive and furthered the discussion. Why don't you offer something positive to offset all the negativity?
The fact that Resume Writer has garnered so many testimonials says everything about her abilities and expertise. As we say in law, res ipsa loquitor, or "the thing speaks for itself."
Caveman
Grandpa
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 1,580
Mtnjam,
Sorry it took so long to get back to you but I've been out flying for a living. BTW, you aren't flying for a living so pay attention numbnuts. You posted :
"The former Marine who replied to this post, is obviously a Marine Officer who never scrubbed **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**te rs as a Private or cleaned blades of grass with a tooth brush because bootprints were on them. That's OK, because I train the newly graduated Ensons and Marine Lt's that are soon to go to Pensacola FL. to try and be a fighter jock. I understand their modes of thinking! Officer mentality!! "
You couldn't be more wrong. First of all, if you were really in the Marine Corps you would have known I was an enlisted Marine by the way I signed the post. FWIW, my bio is almost identical to yours with one minor exception, I have a successful flying career going. You do not. I too dropped out of high school, poor parents, no cash, minor legal problems, dysfunction, etc, etc. SO FREAKING WHAT! Nobody cares. I joined the Marine Corps when I was barely 18 and the Corps squared my ass away and turned me into something useful instead of some whiny kid that's still blaming the world for his own lack of accomplishment. Toughen up buttercup and take charge of your life. Stop blaming your failures on bad luck, little rich kids or whatever else you can come up with. You are the only person on the planet responsible for your life. Either you decide to be succesful or you'll just be another airline wannabe crying about how you could have been a contender. Unless something drastically changes in your attitude you'll never be succesful at anything.
Get your head out of yer ass, pull your panties up and stop **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ing crying!
TOP
Sorry it took so long to get back to you but I've been out flying for a living. BTW, you aren't flying for a living so pay attention numbnuts. You posted :
"The former Marine who replied to this post, is obviously a Marine Officer who never scrubbed **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**te rs as a Private or cleaned blades of grass with a tooth brush because bootprints were on them. That's OK, because I train the newly graduated Ensons and Marine Lt's that are soon to go to Pensacola FL. to try and be a fighter jock. I understand their modes of thinking! Officer mentality!! "
You couldn't be more wrong. First of all, if you were really in the Marine Corps you would have known I was an enlisted Marine by the way I signed the post. FWIW, my bio is almost identical to yours with one minor exception, I have a successful flying career going. You do not. I too dropped out of high school, poor parents, no cash, minor legal problems, dysfunction, etc, etc. SO FREAKING WHAT! Nobody cares. I joined the Marine Corps when I was barely 18 and the Corps squared my ass away and turned me into something useful instead of some whiny kid that's still blaming the world for his own lack of accomplishment. Toughen up buttercup and take charge of your life. Stop blaming your failures on bad luck, little rich kids or whatever else you can come up with. You are the only person on the planet responsible for your life. Either you decide to be succesful or you'll just be another airline wannabe crying about how you could have been a contender. Unless something drastically changes in your attitude you'll never be succesful at anything.
Get your head out of yer ass, pull your panties up and stop **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ing crying!
TOP
IP076
That's right, you're....
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2002
- Posts
- 436
Muddauber said:
Ahhh....WTF? I think a Bachelor's Degree is the same....They're both accredited universities. If anything, Embry-Riddle is the place you go if you dont want to freeze your balls off during the winter. I'd take the mountains of AZ over the crap ponds and continuously flooding rivers of ND any day.
Signed....accepted at UND but went to ERAU anyways...
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
