Hard work doesn't pay in Avation, unless you're a U.N.D. Grad!

[Gulfstream 200]

RONIN-

Wouldn't hire me fly your Hawker????



Oh please, I would LOVE to upgrade to some Piece of $hit hawker!!!..yeah... that would be real sweet...an old Hawker



wake up you jacka$$.

 

[R0NIN]

a Hawker that I own Gulfstream...... touche!

By the way... who is your employer? I am sure they would love to hear how "professional," their pilot is.......

 

[Mtnjam]

Unreal

You people in here are unreal!!!! Some see on my level, and many others don't. The whole point of the very,very first post is this......... If you're a hard working American such as myself who made their OWN WAY in the world without the aid of parents or others then your a minority in the Pilot industry and the odds are against you. Versus the All American Underwater Basket Weaver who went to ERAU or U.N.D. or Kent University,etc,etc,etc. On mom and dads dollar not to mention. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying your one of the few. I looked into those high dolllar programs and 120k didn't make sense to me, nor was it in my budget. Not only that but the bank laughed at me on my way out the door when I did try to get a loan for ERAU, because of my income of my FULL TIME JOB! But the point is these kids coming out of Pilot training with 250 hrs. or so only need another 250 before they'll get picked up by a regional. Piedmont will hire a U.N.D Grad with 500 total and 50 M.E.L. before they hire a 1200 hour, 200 multi hr. pilot who had been instructing for 2 yrs. It's not the quality of flight training your buying, it's the name and your "airline bridge" you're buying.
Whining?? No,not whining here, just making a legitimate point to see what the feedback would be and 95% of the people do not see on my eye level that's for sure. I consider myself to be a high quality individual because not many people who start with nothing end up with at lease a little something, which I have already accomplished. Not only that, but I'm not a shallow person, I look deeper into a person than most in this forum do. And above all the disrespect shown by most in this forum is ridiculous! Backstabbers!! So the guy who's patting your back in this forum will turn around and sock it to you the next, at least from what I can tell in this forum. It's ashame, simply put...

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Ah yeah, another self-proclaimed CEO with his own bizjet...nothing better to do but cruise flightinfo.com = what a tool.

bad enough I thought you FLEW it....but to actually claim to BUY a Piece of $hit like that!....why??....at least make up a GIV or something worth a damm..

ah, yeah, "touche" CEO "touche"..you got me. I know, I will be begging you for a job someday right?

dip$hit.

 

[BoilerUP]

But the point is these kids coming out of Pilot training with 250 hrs. or so only need another 250 before they'll get picked up by a regional. Piedmont will hire a U.N.D Grad with 500 total and 50 M.E.L. before they hire a 1200 hour, 200 multi hr. pilot who had been instructing for 2 yrs. It's not the quality of flight training your buying, it's the name and your "airline bridge" you're buying.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: you sound incredibly jealous and resentful of the "kids" getting hired in front of you. If you are jealous, please just say so. I'm jealous of people I know with Delta captains as fathers who have bought them light twins to build time. But I deal with it, and go on.

What you fail to understand is that IT IS the quality of flight training people recieve at certain schools that allows airlines to hire their graduates at lower minimums. Do you really think Piedmont, ACA, Chautauqua, Trans States, Mesaba, Mesa, Comair, ASA or any other regional would hire grads from schools like UND, ERAU, Purdue, WMU, Flightsafety, DCA, MAPD, or any other source at lower-than-published minimums if they couldn't successfully pass their training and excel flying the line? Besides, minimums are only there as a way to lower the number of resumes recieved - they are absolutely NOT an accurate way to reflect piloting skills. Witness the amount of traffic watch, banner tow or CFI pilots who don't get past the interview. They may have the time, but not the skills required. The name on our resume or diploma might help us get an interview, but our own abilities (and personality) get us the job.

I've flown with students from these schools that couldn't fly their way out of a paper bag, then again I've flown with people who have come up "mom 'n pop" with equally poor skills. Schools give students exposure, if not experience, in turbine aircraft systems and operation that directly correlates to the equipment regionals are flying. You just can't get that from a mom 'n pop school, unless they have a 135 ticket. That training makes the difference - does the candidate already know the operational difference between a piston SE and a turbine ME?

Certificates in the wallet and hours in a logbook do not a competent professional pilot make. I certainly hope if you do get hired by a regional, you don't carry a vintictive attitude about this into the cockpit - you never know where your captain will have come from.

You are near 135 minimums, and the freight guys are losing pilots to the regionals like mad. If you decide to go that route, I honestly wish you the best of luck.

 

[SCT]

Mtnjam: "But the point is these kids coming out of Pilot training with 250 hrs. or so only need another 250 before they'll get picked up by a regional. Piedmont will hire a U.N.D Grad with 500 total and 50 M.E.L."

Mtnjam,

I think this is an extremely small percentage of the pilots that are hired. Like you, I came from grassroots aviation and not from a big flight school. There are pros and cons to both sides. But I'm proud that I paid for it myself and now have a good job. (Think of how much more bang for the buck you'll get from your training!!!)
But the point is, there is absolutely nothing you do to change the situation. So quit bitching on Flightinfo. com and go bound the pavement for that first good job!

Best of luck.

 

[Freight Dog]

HOOOORRAAH, Caveman.

Look Mtn, I *KNOW* you didn't learn to whine in the Marine Corps.

Perhaps, if you approached people here saying something along the lines of...

Can I get a word of advice? I'm a former Marine, CFI, 1100TT/100ME, seeing the guys get hired with less makes me wonder what can I do to make myself more competitive/marketable for regionals or 135, etc.

Humility goes a long way.

I won't even comment on the clipboard whacking.

As to answer your question, you need 1200TT before any 135 outfit will talk to you. Reason being is FAR 135.243(c). Bone up on that...

Once you break 1200TT, look into places like Ram Air Freight, Flight Express, AirNet, Ameriflight... etc. You can find a lot of info about them on these boards or on the web. Be flexible and not afraid to move to another part of the country in pursuit of the next level.

For regionals, you'll need more multi time, that's where Part 135 flying comes in.

Remember, humility goes a long way in this industry... with experience you'd get from these places, and your attitude adjusted, you'll have all you need to succeed.

Semper Fi

Mtnjam,

Sorry it took so long to get back to you but I've been out flying for a living. BTW, you aren't flying for a living so pay attention numbnuts. You posted :

"The former Marine who replied to this post, is obviously a Marine Officer who never scrubbed **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**te rs as a Private or cleaned blades of grass with a tooth brush because bootprints were on them. That's OK, because I train the newly graduated Ensons and Marine Lt's that are soon to go to Pensacola FL. to try and be a fighter jock. I understand their modes of thinking! Officer mentality!! "

You couldn't be more wrong. First of all, if you were really in the Marine Corps you would have known I was an enlisted Marine by the way I signed the post. FWIW, my bio is almost identical to yours with one minor exception, I have a successful flying career going. You do not. I too dropped out of high school, poor parents, no cash, minor legal problems, dysfunction, etc, etc. SO FREAKING WHAT! Nobody cares. I joined the Marine Corps when I was barely 18 and the Corps squared my ass away and turned me into something useful instead of some whiny kid that's still blaming the world for his own lack of accomplishment. Toughen up buttercup and take charge of your life. Stop blaming your failures on bad luck, little rich kids or whatever else you can come up with. You are the only person on the planet responsible for your life. Either you decide to be succesful or you'll just be another airline wannabe crying about how you could have been a contender. Unless something drastically changes in your attitude you'll never be succesful at anything.

Get your head out of yer ass, pull your panties up and stop **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ing crying!

TOP

 

[No.W.]

Mtn...

You've heard this all before...this thread is so freakin' long, but hey, I am bored, and there is nothing else going on here...

Dude, you need to listen to these guys about the whole 135 thing. That's a great opportunity, and if you are willing(and you should be) you can find a job fairly easily with one of the check-hauler type freight ops. Do it. Move where you have to and do it. If this is really what you want to do...go after it. We all have stories of the struggle and hardship to get where we are. So many threads on this board end up in a pissing contest..."My road was harder than yours...blah blah." I am not going to say I've had it tougher than you. I haven't...that is obvious...but I do know that pretty much anyone can do pretty much whatever they want to do if they are willing to do what it takes. You sound committed. That's cool. Kick it into high-gear...ignore your frustration with the industry...and come make it better. We don't need more whining about the pay, whining about the schedules, whining about the hiring, etc. We need folks who learn and help take things in the right direction for all of us. Anyway, just do it, man. Stop posting on these boards and make some decisions...

No.W.

 

[Cl_65_Driver]

Quick rundown and story. I grew up in Foster and group homes dreaming of being a pilot one day, dropped out of high school, eventually got a G.E.D. Joined U.S. Marine Corps at age of 19, spent 5 yrs. active duty got out as a Sergeant. While on Active Duty,started working on Private Pilot and Bachelor of Science Degree in Aviation Management. While working full time even after exiting the Marines! Eventually earned Bachelor's and all flight rating's 40 thousand dollars later and with alot of outstanding loans that I cannot afford to pay on a CFI Salary. Left Chicago for a better CFI job in Annapolis, MD which is where I am stuck now, 10 yrs. after I began working towards being a Pilot. I worked while paying my own way through my education, spent all my money to move to Maryland to instruct FULL TIME and now with 1100 hours and 100 hrs. of Multi-Engine, am unable to move onto a Regional Airline because the way they are abusing newbie F/O's. My question is, how do these companies expect to find good quality individuals? Who are the people taking these jobs that don't pay you during training, don't pay for your hotel accomodations for approx. 8 weeks while you train, doc your pay for uniforms and only pay you a starting salary of around 20 to 22k? Then on top of that you have to move!!! Corporate jobs seem to be all about "who you know". Around the Baltimore, Washington D.C. area there are not many Pt. 135 operators that are very friendly.
10 yrs. of working towards making a dream come true and hearing about the 850 hr. total time pilot who just got hired at American Eagle because he's 22 and wet behind the ears from graduating from a university with an airline bridge program makes me want to puke! Seeing U.N.D. Grads instructing at my place of employment until they get 500 total time and moving onto Piedmont Airlines or Cirrus is not cool. My point is the underprivelaged, hard working U.S. Marine vet. at the age of 30 who slept in many rainy fox holes with a machine gun just can't get ahead of the U.N.D. Grad of age 22 with 500 hours of total time. The problem is that I'm not the only one!! I've been instructing for just over 2 yrs. and over 1 yr. full time. The back stabbing and other issue's in this industry that I've seen really turn me off an almost make me want to get a job at Wendy's flipping burgers, or returning to being a Grease Monkey on some big nasty Diesel Engine somewhere. Am I insane? Does anyone else see these issues on my level? Too bad everyone will not stand up to the airlines and say, "hey look take care of us a little better." What would the world do without air travel if all pilot's were on strike or would not take a job unless they got paid during training? They would eventually concave, but the problem is there are too many "pilot whores" and it will NEVER happen. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

I dont know about you Devil Dog but I took full advantage of the VA (not mommy and daddy) to get to my current position and I cant believe you can get on here and whine like a Bitc# and use the corps to get people to feel sorry for you....U must not have been an 03 otherwise you would have learned to adapt and overcome and take full advantage of all situations......I never did like pog's anyway.....I was in for 4 yr's and a SGT too......Suck it up and drive on...or maybe i should say give it up and join the reserves.....

 

[Super80]

Miles to go before I sleep...

Having read this thread in its entirity, I can't not comment. And I realize that as a brand new user, it is a little bit early to start ripping on people. But then again, I wasn't the one who brought this up.

Anyway, let me just say that if I have to fly checks overnight in the ice, I will. So some regional wants to pay me $25K to fly airplanes? How freakin' horrible! Bitch all you want about about how the company is underpaying--I'm takin' the job. If I wanted easy money, I would have done something else.

Which brings me to another point: You'd be hard pressed to find many career field where the first-year pay doesn't suck--the only difference being that in the rest of the working world, pay doesn't improve nearly as much after the first year. You're gonna have to pay your dues no matter what job you choose.

Anyway, I have a BS in Aviation from a no-name western college. I was smart about how I spent my money, and wound up with only $18k of student loans. Things are working out for me. I've had to move across country. I've had to bide my time in crappy non-aviation jobs waiting for my shot. I wouldn't trade a minute of it--I am completely happy with what life has given me. And I realize that I still have a LOT of work to do. Flying checks in the ice actually sounds like fun, in a perverse sort of way. I know I'll get my shot. I'm staying flexible--people ask me whether I want to fly airlines or corporate, and I tell them that I have no preference (although I think I'd go for corporate if it came right down to it). Flying is flying, a paycheck is a paycheck, and a jet is a jet.

About the clipboard thing, even a college punk like me is smart enough to know that there are better training techniques.

And, if somewhere down the line, some airline tells me that they can only pay me $120K max to fly domestic narrowbodies, I'll take that job too. I just want to buy a house, maybe drive a Civic. Other than that, I'm all set. This was never about the money anyway.

Well, there's my piece.

'80

 

[Resume Writer]

I have been reading this web page for almost 10 years..... 80% of the people on this board are huge losers... including the resume writer gal..
-Ronin, out

Wow, where did THAT come from? How is providing helpful information to people make you a loser? Please enlighten me.

Kathy

 

[TonyC]

Wow, where did THAT come from? How is providing helpful information to people make you a loser? Please enlighten me.

Kathy

He ain't worth your time, Sis.

 

[SLFLYHI]

Having read this thread in its entirity, I can't not comment. And I realize that as a brand new user, it is a little bit early to start ripping on people. But then again, I wasn't the one who brought this up.

Anyway, let me just say that if I have to fly checks overnight in the ice, I will. So some regional wants to pay me $25K to fly airplanes? How freakin' horrible! Bitch all you want about about how the company is underpaying--I'm takin' the job. If I wanted easy money, I would have done something else.

Which brings me to another point: You'd be hard pressed to find many career field where the first-year pay doesn't suck--the only difference being that in the rest of the working world, pay doesn't improve nearly as much after the first year. You're gonna have to pay your dues no matter what job you choose.

Anyway, I have a BS in Aviation from a no-name western college. I was smart about how I spent my money, and wound up with only $18k of student loans. Things are working out for me. I've had to move across country. I've had to bide my time in crappy non-aviation jobs waiting for my shot. I wouldn't trade a minute of it--I am completely happy with what life has given me. And I realize that I still have a LOT of work to do. Flying checks in the ice actually sounds like fun, in a perverse sort of way. I know I'll get my shot. I'm staying flexible--people ask me whether I want to fly airlines or corporate, and I tell them that I have no preference (although I think I'd go for corporate if it came right down to it). Flying is flying, a paycheck is a paycheck, and a jet is a jet.

About the clipboard thing, even a college punk like me is smart enough to know that there are better training techniques.

And, if somewhere down the line, some airline tells me that they can only pay me $120K max to fly domestic narrowbodies, I'll take that job too. I just want to buy a house, maybe drive a Civic. Other than that, I'm all set. This was never about the money anyway.

Well, there's my piece.

'80

Right on, 80. You've got the RIGHT attitude. Did you know that if your household total income is more than $60K/yr that puts you in the TOP 10% of ALL Americans? I think more pilots need to keep this in mind. So you'll only make $80/hr flying an RJ for your career, boo hoo. At least you'll have 15 days off each month to spend with your family and working on other business.

I hope you are successful - we need more guys like you and less like all the whiners.

Steve
IAH EMB-145 FO

 

[Super80]

Hey thanks Steve! I'm working hard and hoping things work out. I have a sneaking suspicion that they will.

ERJ FO... hmm... I wouldn't mind doing that!

'80

 

[pilotyip]

10 years????????????????????????

This thing been around 10 years?, I thought I read in 1993 there were like only a 200 or so internet sights

 

[bobbysamd]

Flamebait - or something

I have been reading this web page for almost 10 years..... 80% of the people on this board are huge losers... including the resume writer gal..
-Ronin, out

Wow, where did THAT come from? How is providing helpful information to people make you a loser? Please enlighten me.

It's a non-sequitur. Besides, I do not believe this board has been up for ten years. Hardly anyone was on the internet ten years ago.

Just consider the source.

 

[pilotyip]

When did this thing start?

I know it is not 10 years, I have been using this since 2000, how long has this been around in its present and former lifes?

 

[Cpt Splash]

Mtnjam,
I understand your frustration and God knows that many of us have had the same frustration, but to make a statement that ERAU and UND grads are the problem with YOU getting a job is just plain ignorant. YOU have made decisions in your life that have led you to your current situation.
I graduated ERAU and I didn't do it with Mommy and Daddy's money, I placed the burden on myself because it is what I wanted to do. I also didn't go the regional route like many of my friends did because I believe there is a lot more true flying out there then there is with the airlines. I did flight instructing for 2 and half years and then started flying 135. I flew high performance single engine aircraft all along the North East into airports like LGA and TEB. Then I was given the opportunity to get Typed in a Citation and fly the left seat, all paid for by the company I work for. Did I get it because I graduated ERAU? NO! I got the opportunity because I proved my worth. The education I received from ERAU was first class. I took the knowledge and made myself the pilot I am today.
You have low time and your going to have to get more. I think the advice others have given you in this forum about flying 135 or flying checks should be seriously considered. Your whining and blaming of others is not going to get you any sympathy here or in the industry. If your airline horny only, then keep applying and SELL YOURSELF. Make a follow up phone call after you send your resume and speak with the recuiter. They will listen.
By the way, my friends who work for the regionals are unhappy with their current situation but thats the breaks. I made Captain at 25 but I still look for other opportunities out there and will continue to do so. Thats how you stay competative. And one day I may work for an airline, who knows.
The only person you have to blame is yourself. If you don't like it, get out.

 

[Airpiraterob]

a few tips to help

i as well appreciate your military service for us and our country. however you have yet to say thank-you for any one previous to me for saying that as wll as thank you for anyones kind comments and suggestions that some of these honest people have lended to you. i am not so kind and sometimes i am....and i think youre unappreciative for anything that anyones said so far.

the following is to help you and frankly its what everyone here is reading about thats happening in your head. we can see it. this is matter-of-fact and i do not claim to know you in any way or try to know you. outward observations are enough to make comment on. if i ruffle your feathers....then i hit a sore spot that needs some personal work on. ok?

ready?
lets go!

ive noticed thorughout the entire thread and every single response youve written...that the following exists:

tip 1: You believe that if everyones life path is not exactly mirrored to yours then they are inferrior to you and less of a person than you are. You believe that when someone does not agree with you 110% about what you deserve in aviation at this immediate moment, then they are now 'unbelieveable' and outstandingly wrong. You need to realize that the dues in aviation that people pay to get that job have NOTHING TO DO with previous life experiences. I will personally hire a 500 hour wunderpunk over you cause his outlook is not BITTER. Theres one BIG question thats asked in any interview, and that is "Tell us why we should hire you"...if you answer for this airline job is anything about your life and your rise to overcome your challenges then youll get the door immediately. they want you to demonstrate verbally just what you want to accomplish there and why they are the best for you and what your goal THERE is....anything else? go out the door and tuck your tail between your legs.

tip 2: If youre upset that alot of people in this world have better breaks than you do (ie: daddys money or the bridge programs) then go ahead and complain. But get ready to do it for 60+ more years as THIS IS HOW LIFE IS. it will never be equal footing for everyone. so you either need to get over it and accept it AND GET ON WITH LIFES WORK or shut up. and i mean it. cuase not a single person wants to be around a negative-nancy like you're currently demonstrating yourself to be. i mean really....go re-read your posts...its the most negative stuff ive seen in a while. complete turn off to anyone trying to hire you (and resume writer is correct BTW). the hiring staff can see through you if you dont put together a REALLY good resume. do you want to wind up on everyones "do not fly with" list? with that attitude you will be quickly. your attitude displayed here frankly sucks cock.


tip 3: Are you incapable of vocalizing the proper vocabulary to explain to your students what they should do? Do you have to resort to physical abuse when you can't think of what to say next to hopefully explain what the student should be doing? what this demonstrates to me is that this person cant make on the fly decisionmaking without resorting to rage and violence in the cockpit to solve the problem. gonna hit the captian instead of tell him hes consistantly a whole dot off? gonna hi the interview staff with a clipboard fi they dont like your answers? that is the lowest of the low un-professional tactics that have no place ANYWHERE in aviation. all you need is a pissed off mental student that retaliates IN FLIGHT...do you want that? keep it up then cause theres guys like that out there. are you so mad at the 'unfair' world that you must act in violence toward those that are appreciating what theyve been given? Students are not dogs. they understand english (most of em) and will understand what you want them to. if a student does not do what you tell them they need to do...its YOUR FAULT for not telling them clearly enough so they could understand....beating them is stupid. hear me?...its STUPID! ive flown with ALOT of students and soloed ALOT of students and fully trained ALOT of students. every single one of them did very well and all of them finished reasonably close to the minimum required time. not one required regular beatings and elbows to the guy to get them to fly well. do you think this increases morale? how could i get excited about going to go get beaten by my instructor today?

Tip 4: if i was your student....even a military one. shortly after a lesson youd be relieved immediately by your CO and you' also be wearing my skid-marked boxers as a hat with your clipboard up your a$$ crammed way up there with walnuts. you have no idea how furrious your tactic makes the majority of us feel.....and thats just those of us who care to comment.

Tip 5: You want that regional job. i didnt get mine till i have 3200 hours. and everyone in my class had alot of flight time. not a single one had what you have. GET MORE TIME.

Tip 5: if you get hit by a train, you deserve to get hit by a train.

there have been hires with low time. and those are just lucky ones. the majority of the new hires? HAVE AT LEAST TWICE THE TIME YOU DO AND A BUNCH OF IT TURBINE! GET MORE TIME! YOU HAEV NO ROOM TO COMPLAIN YET!!!


i do applaude you on overcomming your obstacles. i know its tough and ive had some breaks during low points in life that i was certianly lucky to have recieved and im eternally greatful for them. i do not trump them in peoples faces. i understand that part of things. i help others the same way i was helped when i can....do you want a job? ill help you if you need help. im in the position to present a good walk-in for a good solid resume at a good job with a caravan attached to someone who could use a lucky break like i got.....but with that attitude you can stick it. until you resolve it and cool down you get no help from me.

its how ive been seeing it. disagree? thats fine. i dont think of you any less or more for disagreeing.
(yes i know i have a lack of spelling prowess)

 

[Vik]

Mtnjam,

After reading everything you've had to say, I'm sorry to say that I have no sympathy at all.

I know PLENTY of ERAU and UND grads that took out massive loans, instructed for $12k/yr or whatever pathetic salary, lived on Ramen, got their 1000/100 or whatever the magic number was at the time, and got hired.

I dont know what dropping out of HS, and doing whatever you did had to do with getting to the airlines any faster.

Also, the regional classes are full of people that didn't go to UND and ERAU for the most part, so its not the UND or ERAU grads taking your job slots.

Anyway, you're complaining to deaf ears here .. many people went through and are going through the same sh!t you went through and I know whats on the mind of all of them .. "do you want some cheese with your whine?"

I nearly filed for bankruptcy in 2002, so I'll tell you, life's been f^ck'n bad for some of us too. Just keep plug'n away. Complaining and blaming others won't help. Its all up to you in the this career and everyone for the most part pays their dues, just like you. The percent that dont pay their dues aren't even 1% of the hired pilots at regionals.