HA - Latest System Bid

[Hawaiian 5-0]

Thanks Dan. I am what you would call new school HA. I got here as fast as I could though. I love it and cannot think of another airline I'd rather be at. I know you old school guys went through a lot and it is appreciated. I do however think the timing is right to get a top tier contract. I'm old school at heart and think we can all pull together and take care of the entire seniority list. Let's get it all.

 

[HAL]

Sir, with all due respect, I disagree. The days of zero sum negotiating are past. Thank goodness. It's a new century and the airlines cant just go 911 911 911 911 911 anymore. It's time to pay up. The current contract is still full of concessionary give backs. Can you say pro-ration... No more, please.

There is no doubt in my mind that we can get a five hour DPM, AND a 20% pay raise. I'll keep voting no until we get close to that. While we're at it, don't forget about scope and the B-Plan too. Yes, I want it all, and am willing to do what ever it legally takes.

With a good DPM, the three days will take care of themselves. They will either go away, or start paying very well. We are not talking about moving the departure/arrival times around by too much. An hour in the evening and an hour in the morning will make the flight legal for part 117, and not destroy the route. It's time for an industry competitive if not industry leading contract.

Times are good. We need to take advantage of them and get what we can now. Heaven knows that when times are bad, the airlines will get what they can from us. It works BOTH ways.

I certainly understand your points, and I have never suggested it was a zero-sum affair. We deserve (and will get) a good bump in pay and work rules this time. If not, I'm ready to walk the line too. My comments were to a specific subject - the daily minimum pay. I've been through a lot of contracts at various airlines, and although there have been some good (and bad) parts to most of them, the one consistent thing is that the pilots never get big gains at the cost of lower efficiency. It's just a bridge the airline negotiators will not cross, no matter how much we beg, plead, or stomp our feet. There's a lot of ways we can improve the contract, but asking the company to give us 33% more flight hours in pay for no increase in actual flying is not going to happen. If there were a way to construct more efficient pairings, then it might happen. But with the way our schedules have to work, it won't happen. There is already some poor language in the contract regarding the 321NEOs being flown on interisland tag-on legs. I'm sure that language will be adjusted to our benefit too. The problem will still remain for the 330s and 767s though, since they are not built for (and won't fly) interisland legs.

For Waveflyer, I'd ask if you know of any airline that prevents pilots that use PBS from bidding on the schedule they want because of their seniority - especially if the pairings are open, legal, and available? Some airlines (HA included) do adjust the final awards to ensure there is enough coverage on certain days, usually weekends and holidays. That is in the company's benefit because they need the flights covered. But the airline PBS systems don't prevent a senior pilot from getting a requested schedule just so a more junior pilot can have more days off. It doesn't happen here, or anywhere else.

And that is the bottom line of the argument from HA25 and others. They are asking for more days off. They could get that from more efficient schedules if they existed at their seniority, but in reality they can't get them now. If they can't get the trips that provide a better schedule, what other options are there? What should the union ask the company for, that has at least a glimmer of happening in the contract negotiations?

HAL

 

[waveflyer]

Yes, SWA. Pairings built have their rigs, but also each line created has to meet certain minimum criteria set by our contract. The result is better pairing parity than any of the 6 airlines I've worked at before.
If pbs is the excuse because no lines are built, that's just an excuse. Garbage in garbage out. Yes, your awarding of more efficient pairings ought to be limited by monthly line parameters/minimums that each pilot should get. There will always be advantages to being senior. That's no excuse for greed. Nor an excuse for not representing junior pilots fairly in the monthly bid process.
Cmon, seriously. 12 days off for junior making much less while senior make much more on 18 days off?

Seniority should buy some things, but that's way too much.
No pilot anywhere on a major airline seniority list should have a sh/t life.
That's the standard.

 

[Hawaiian 5-0]

And that is the bottom line of the argument from HA25 and others. They are asking for more days off. They could get that from more efficient schedules if they existed at their seniority, but in reality they can't get them now. If they can't get the trips that provide a better schedule, what other options are there? What should the union ask the company for, that has at least a glimmer of happening in the contract negotiations?

HAL, this is where I respectfully have to disagree. I think even you as a senior guy deserve more days off too. We work much more than any other major airline. This is too much productivity for management at OUR expense.

It's called industry standard. The NEW industry standard IS trip and duty rigs. It's not like we're asking for something earth shattering that no one else has. All of the other major/legacy carriers now have decent trip rigs. We even had them at the "regional" that I came from. This, is why imho it has much more of a glimmer of hope of happening. If the company says no, then I'll keep voting no.

It has been proven by many other airlines now that an industry standard contract will not break the bank. Yes, management will scream and kick saying we will break the back of the company... Thats their job. In the end, it will be OK. In just the few years I have been here, our stock price has more than tripled. It's our turn now to get some of the earnings.

I do see your point, but think we can do much better for ALL of us. Lets not make this a junior vs senior discussion. Instead, lets pull together and get it fixed for ALL of us. There are parts of this contract that need fixing at all seniority levels... Scope, retirement, pay and work rules... We're all in this together. Have a great day.

 

[HAL]

HAL, this is where I respectfully have to disagree. I think even you as a senior guy deserve more days off too. We work much more than any other major airline. This is too much productivity for management at OUR expense.

Being here for a while doesn't make me senior in my position. For me, I have to bid reduced days off to get a line because I'm relatively junior as an Airbus Captain. I can't get longhaul flying when I bid, even though I try, because I'm too junior. LAS, LAX, SEA, and maybe SFO are the only things within my reach. And that would come with maybe 9 or 10 days off for the month. I'd love to have more days off, but with our schedule, it doesn't happen.

I certainly understand and agree with your push for an industry standard contract. I'm only saying that what you are asking for at HA may not be industry standard because of the specifics of our route structure. For something to be 'industry standard', all parts would have to equal (roughly) what other airlines are doing. I'm all for a 5+ minimum daily credit. That is industry standard. It would make my life and schedule much, much better. The part that may not be industry standard is how much soft time that would create in our schedules. If the 'industry standard is, say, 5% extra, whereas our 5+ hour daily minimum would create a 33% extra soft time, that isn't industry standard. It is far and above, and no negotiator (or arbitrator) would allow it. You can't have one part (industry standard daily minimum) without the other (industry standard soft time). If we want to be 'industry leading', how far can we push it? Again, I'm all for asking for it. But the truth is that in the real world of contract negotiations, there are limits and boundaries that we'll run up against, and no amount of talking, picketing, or striking would change it. This is about learning the limitations we may run up against, and how we can work around them to still get the best contract possible. I just don't want to see a sizeable portion of our pilot group asking for something that we are simply not going to get, and then complaining that we 'didn't try hard enough'. If we can understand how the system works - both the good & bad - we'll be better prepared to get what is possible.

If someone comes up with a solution that would allow for 5+ minimum days, as well as taking care of the soft time it would create, then we can all shout 'Hurrah!', and sign a great contract. If there is no solution, we have to understand why, what we can do about it, and still work to improve all sections of the contract.

HAL

 

[sk00tar]

Do you guys believe that Hawaiian will see a contract on par with the big 3 or something lesser due to the nature of the company's operations. Right now HAL widebody pilots are making quite bit less than their mainland counterparts.

Thanks for your thoughts

 

[Junkflyer]

I think if you would find that our pilots fly more block hours than any other big player. The union should research the numbers and use them as a tool during negotiations.
The interisland reserrves often fly 50+ hours per month.

 

[Hawaiian 5-0]

Junk... It's not so much block hours as it is less days off. Two different pilots from two different carriers can fly the same block hours, while one guy gets a lot more days off. Think proration. Throw in soft time and it really gets confusing. One pilot can work 75 hours and get paid for 95, while the other works 95 and gets 95. Clear as mud???

 

[Hawaiian 5-0]

HAL... Good points. It ain't going to be easy.

 

[Jim]

Do you guys believe that Hawaiian will see a contract on par with the big 3 or something lesser due to the nature of the company's operations. Right now HAL widebody pilots are making quite bit less than their mainland counterparts.

Thanks for your thoughts

We had equivalency when we signed our current contract, I expect equivalency again with the next.

The problem we face now is the length of our current contract. The others have all had at least two additional contracts since we signed.

 

[sk00tar]

Delta is starting their new round of contract talks. Hal is already a cycle behind. Is parity for the last set of industry standard contracts or the what is being negotiated in 2015 by Delta.

If you were to speculate what are the top 3 items the Hawaiian pilot group wants to address in the next contract.

Thanks

 

[Jim]

Delta is starting their new round of contract talks. Hal is already a cycle behind. Is parity for the last set of industry standard contracts or the what is being negotiated in 2015 by Delta.

If you were to speculate what are the top 3 items the Hawaiian pilot group wants to address in the next contract.

Thanks

Whatever is in effect or will be in effect when we sign.

Top 3?
Pay, workrules and retirement..... We haven't even had openers yet and have to get our new union reps in place before anyone can narrow it down for you anymore than that.

 

[Microclimates]

1. SCOPE! a much tighter leash on ohana. not just a minimum block guarantee for HAL, but also a max block to ohana. ensuring that inter-island growth doesn't go to them only.

2. Pay (not just captain's pay rate, also FO rate-- our pay as a percentage of captains' pay is well below industry standard... )

3. soft time: a. minimum daily guarantee so that junior line holders don't have to give up days off just to get a line. b. training pay. c. vacation pay d. no proration bullsht

4. QOL: e.g. long call reserve (commuting policy is not realistic-- long call is),

 

[mdanno808]

For the guys who were here during the bankruptcy, Retirement is going to be number one. We have captains hired in 99-01 who's company contribution is 6-7%.

 

[Microclimates]

yes but they also have a defined benefits package to go with it.

 

[mdanno808]

Yes we do. So how much would it take in the db package to make up for a company contribution less than half of industry standard? Remember, those in the b plan getting less than 15% were the youngest & most junior with at most 5 years longevity when this plan was created, so we all have very little in our db fund. I can tell you my a fund payout is calculated at just over $600/month. I would gladly forfeit that minuscule amount to more than double my company contribution & receive what the new hires (and the rest of the industry) are getting.

 

[HA25]

HAL is a good friend, a wonderful instructor and a great captain by all accounts but I have to disagree with his view about our route structure being an obstacle to getting rigs.. I sit here and type this from ICN on a 5 day trip where if I had the Delta current rig, I'd be making another 4 hours pay.. Delta is staying at the same hotel, as is American, UPS, and foreign carriers.. we ALL do the same thing.

There are pocket bases at all of the major carriers with route structures much like ours.. I will also remind HAL that the secondary bidlines that the COMPANY wanted to keep and that the union finally revoked paid a pilot 75 hours of credit, for about 60 hours of flying.. 13-14 days off... Proof that they can afford it.

We don't need to go to the table with the white flag raised, talking about "what are you willing to give up" when we have nothing TO give up (maybe except industry leading per diem)... the fact remains, Hawaiian is a Legacy Airline, like Alaska, like Delta and like Amerian... those our our peers.. and those are the guys by which our CBA must be measured.

The tide has turned, the MEC recall that took place was a shot across the bow of defeatism and "we'll we can't afford to be like Delta"... those are the kinds of slogans that Mark D as programmed many of our pilots to believe, but thankfully most of us don't.

 

[fly4surf]

^^^like^^^

Think you are right and I am also starting to think it's going to be quite a fight for those increases.

 

[HA25]

Yes we do. So how much would it take in the db package to make up for a company contribution less than half of industry standard? Remember, those in the b plan getting less than 15% were the youngest & most junior with at most 5 years longevity when this plan was created, so we all have very little in our db fund. I can tell you my a fund payout is calculated at just over $600/month. I would gladly forfeit that minuscule amount to more than double my company contribution & receive what the new hires (and the rest of the industry) are getting.

it's simple, you should be able to opt out, give back the frozen A portion and join us at 15%.. full stop.

 

[Microclimates]

HA25 +1 on all counts!
regarding b plan: I didn't mean to belittle the issue, and I know that the 'junior' b planners got a mediocre deal (then again, in this industry 'junior' is synonymous with 'mediocre deal')... opting out seems to be the easiest fix, I would imagine.

as far as trip rig, also a hearty +1. If anything, this will be an incentive for more efficient pairings! so it's a win win for everyone: pilots get to work when they are at work, and be home when they are not working. the company gets better crew utilization, and not burning reserves on 5 day trips when people call in sick.

Also, from my perspective the issue isn't very much the 5 day international stuff (which is a function of non-daily flight schedules), it's the stupid 3 day lax, or 4 day vegas that, frankly, are inefficient because the company has no incentive to tweak the schedules to make them efficient.