HA - Latest System Bid

[Hawaiian 5-0]

When it comes down to it, every airline job is a bunch of tradeoffs. We get to know most of the people we fly with, work for an airline that is doing well, and enjoy the environment (and some of the destinations) we work in. The tradeoffs are a less-than-perfect schedule for more junior pilots and less flexibility in bidding.

Sir, with all due respect, I disagree. The days of zero sum negotiating are past. Thank goodness. It's a new century and the airlines cant just go 911 911 911 911 911 anymore. It's time to pay up. The current contract is still full of concessionary give backs. Can you say pro-ration... No more, please.

There is no doubt in my mind that we can get a five hour DPM, AND a 20% pay raise. I'll keep voting no until we get close to that. While we're at it, don't forget about scope and the B-Plan too. Yes, I want it all, and am willing to do what ever it legally takes.

With a good DPM, the three days will take care of themselves. They will either go away, or start paying very well. We are not talking about moving the departure/arrival times around by too much. An hour in the evening and an hour in the morning will make the flight legal for part 117, and not destroy the route. It's time for an industry competitive if not industry leading contract.

Times are good. We need to take advantage of them and get what we can now. Heaven knows that when times are bad, the airlines will get what they can from us. It works BOTH ways.

 

[General Lee]

General, on average, how many actual hours flight time is there on three-day trips at DL? If it is something close to 15:45, then the company has done a good job putting together schedules. The problem for us is that most of the three-day trips to the west coast are in the 11 to 12 hour range, meaning if we were paid for 15:45 we'd be having the company pay an extra 4+ hours that we didn't fly, or in other words, an extra 33% or more for the same flying. At other airlines the daily trip rig is to force the company into making the schedules as efficient as possible. What could HA do to tack on those extra 4 hours within that same trip and make it more efficient?

So here's a question for my HA friends; if we got a 33% raise on this contract would you be happy, and not push for a daily trip rig? Or if you still want one, how would you suggest HA make their schedules more efficient? Remember - the purpose of the daily trip rig is to force the company to schedule more efficiently, not to take more than you've earned.

HAL

HAL,

Looking at those LA trips to Hawaii for November (when the new 5:15 per day average takes place), the two leg trips to Hawaii with an allnighter back to LA at the end appear to be worth 15:45, even though they actually fly 11 hours or so. I thought they would add some mainland domestic to those trips to take away some of the credit time, but it doesn't appear that they have done that yet. As far as regular domestic trips in ATL or DTW, they have more city pairs to try to get that credit down, but a lot of the trips seem to have at least a couple hours credit, which is good for the pilot group. But, they may still be working on the computer program to try to get the trips as close as they can to 15:45 for a 3 day and 21 hours for a 4 day. Some bases, like DTW/MSP/SEA/SLC actually have some 5 day domestic trips, so those of course would be worth 26:15. So far, it looks good for the pilots. (Some benefit to the new agreement, more money or fewer trips needed to fill up)

In ATL, the trip to Quito (UIO) may actually go fairly senior. A 3 day with two legs that leaves late the first day, a bit more than 10 hours block after the allnighter back to ATL, with about 5 hours of credit. (15:45). Not bad.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Junkflyer]

Agree HAL, the vacation pay and training pay are bankruptcy concessions that should have been brought back to full value with no negotiating capital spent on the last contract. The scope clause is already starting affect the 717 lines.
Lots of money going around and lots of hiring of managers and directors, but labor is always short staffed.

 

[Dan Roman]

Sir, with all due respect, I disagree. The days of zero sum negotiating are past. Thank goodness. It's a new century and the airlines cant just go 911 911 911 911 911 anymore. It's time to pay up. The current contract is still full of concessionary give backs. Can you say pro-ration... No more, please.

There is no doubt in my mind that we can get a five hour DPM, AND a 20% pay raise. I'll keep voting no until we get close to that. While we're at it, don't forget about scope and the B-Plan too. Yes, I want it all, and am willing to do what ever it legally takes.

With a good DPM, the three days will take care of themselves. They will either go away, or start paying very well. We are not talking about moving the departure/arrival times around by too much. An hour in the evening and an hour in the morning will make the flight legal for part 117, and not destroy the route. It's time for an industry competitive if not industry leading contract.

Times are good. We need to take advantage of them and get what we can now. Heaven knows that when times are bad, the airlines will get what they can from us. It works BOTH ways.

Five O, I see it's your first post here. That's a good thing. We need new blood getting involved. I'm old school Hawaiian, I'm from the group that got us to where we are. Half the HA pilots have been hired in the last 6 years and we are going to double the seniority list in the next 5. You folks are the future, we need to change are mindset on the past while respecting what was accomplished, but the reality is we do need to pull together and get a good contract. I agree with a lot of what you say. We have created a very successful airline that should not just benefit management and stockholders.
We are about to enter a whole new era with the MEC change, I am cautiously optimistic we can get a good contract. But it will take a very insightful MEC that can blend a lot of different perspectives into one that can move forward, otherwise we'll just end up like USAPA.

 

[waveflyer]

Because the 767 engines and the plane itself are not made to fly 15 minute legs. It would significantly increase maintenance costs and failures. We flew 767s interisland HNL-OGG out of necessity the summer Aloha went out of business so this is not a guess but a known fact.

The reason we fly 717s interisland is because it can take this punishment. We worked with Boeing and Rolls Royce extensively when we brought them on line and RR actually made some significant engine changes to better handle the short legs.

Aloha kept getting waivers to fly 737-200s interisland for the same reason. It would have torn their 737-800s up.

But the A321Neo is a different beast and that is exactly what is planned when they start coming on line.

There are rumors of flying one of our older 767s interisland next summer instead of retiring it to the desert. In this case they figure it's getting parked anyway so why not.

Well, the neo is the future, so a contract ought to be based on that more than anything.
I do want to emphasize that you're still making management's problems your problem.

(I won't pretend to be a marketing expert or a pilot CEO - in that specific example, the bigger issue for a daily rig is the trip east where tailwinds shorten the length. Once you're on the mainland, there are plenty of 1-2 hour legs that could be possible that won't have the engine issues a 15-20 minute flight would have.

The LARGER point though is your union's involvement in creating lines, not necessarily pairings. Again, senior pilots ought not be averaging 18 days off, while junior pilots pay the same dues, and get 12.
That really shouldn't happen no matter how much you may respect dan roman "building the airline"


(Dan, has that sh/t ever flown? Please, pray tell, what you did to "make hawaiian the airline it is today?- maybe you really did - but I bet you flew your line and got awarded the easiest and best one your seniority could buy. Not a good argument to piss on your junior's QOL.)

Junior HAL pilots, I'd verify that your union is representing you as fairly as they represent your senior.

 

[Hawaiian 5-0]

Thanks Dan. I am what you would call new school HA. I got here as fast as I could though. I love it and cannot think of another airline I'd rather be at. I know you old school guys went through a lot and it is appreciated. I do however think the timing is right to get a top tier contract. I'm old school at heart and think we can all pull together and take care of the entire seniority list. Let's get it all.

 

[HAL]

Sir, with all due respect, I disagree. The days of zero sum negotiating are past. Thank goodness. It's a new century and the airlines cant just go 911 911 911 911 911 anymore. It's time to pay up. The current contract is still full of concessionary give backs. Can you say pro-ration... No more, please.

There is no doubt in my mind that we can get a five hour DPM, AND a 20% pay raise. I'll keep voting no until we get close to that. While we're at it, don't forget about scope and the B-Plan too. Yes, I want it all, and am willing to do what ever it legally takes.

With a good DPM, the three days will take care of themselves. They will either go away, or start paying very well. We are not talking about moving the departure/arrival times around by too much. An hour in the evening and an hour in the morning will make the flight legal for part 117, and not destroy the route. It's time for an industry competitive if not industry leading contract.

Times are good. We need to take advantage of them and get what we can now. Heaven knows that when times are bad, the airlines will get what they can from us. It works BOTH ways.

I certainly understand your points, and I have never suggested it was a zero-sum affair. We deserve (and will get) a good bump in pay and work rules this time. If not, I'm ready to walk the line too. My comments were to a specific subject - the daily minimum pay. I've been through a lot of contracts at various airlines, and although there have been some good (and bad) parts to most of them, the one consistent thing is that the pilots never get big gains at the cost of lower efficiency. It's just a bridge the airline negotiators will not cross, no matter how much we beg, plead, or stomp our feet. There's a lot of ways we can improve the contract, but asking the company to give us 33% more flight hours in pay for no increase in actual flying is not going to happen. If there were a way to construct more efficient pairings, then it might happen. But with the way our schedules have to work, it won't happen. There is already some poor language in the contract regarding the 321NEOs being flown on interisland tag-on legs. I'm sure that language will be adjusted to our benefit too. The problem will still remain for the 330s and 767s though, since they are not built for (and won't fly) interisland legs.

For Waveflyer, I'd ask if you know of any airline that prevents pilots that use PBS from bidding on the schedule they want because of their seniority - especially if the pairings are open, legal, and available? Some airlines (HA included) do adjust the final awards to ensure there is enough coverage on certain days, usually weekends and holidays. That is in the company's benefit because they need the flights covered. But the airline PBS systems don't prevent a senior pilot from getting a requested schedule just so a more junior pilot can have more days off. It doesn't happen here, or anywhere else.

And that is the bottom line of the argument from HA25 and others. They are asking for more days off. They could get that from more efficient schedules if they existed at their seniority, but in reality they can't get them now. If they can't get the trips that provide a better schedule, what other options are there? What should the union ask the company for, that has at least a glimmer of happening in the contract negotiations?

HAL

 

[waveflyer]

Yes, SWA. Pairings built have their rigs, but also each line created has to meet certain minimum criteria set by our contract. The result is better pairing parity than any of the 6 airlines I've worked at before.
If pbs is the excuse because no lines are built, that's just an excuse. Garbage in garbage out. Yes, your awarding of more efficient pairings ought to be limited by monthly line parameters/minimums that each pilot should get. There will always be advantages to being senior. That's no excuse for greed. Nor an excuse for not representing junior pilots fairly in the monthly bid process.
Cmon, seriously. 12 days off for junior making much less while senior make much more on 18 days off?

Seniority should buy some things, but that's way too much.
No pilot anywhere on a major airline seniority list should have a sh/t life.
That's the standard.

 

[Hawaiian 5-0]

And that is the bottom line of the argument from HA25 and others. They are asking for more days off. They could get that from more efficient schedules if they existed at their seniority, but in reality they can't get them now. If they can't get the trips that provide a better schedule, what other options are there? What should the union ask the company for, that has at least a glimmer of happening in the contract negotiations?

HAL, this is where I respectfully have to disagree. I think even you as a senior guy deserve more days off too. We work much more than any other major airline. This is too much productivity for management at OUR expense.

It's called industry standard. The NEW industry standard IS trip and duty rigs. It's not like we're asking for something earth shattering that no one else has. All of the other major/legacy carriers now have decent trip rigs. We even had them at the "regional" that I came from. This, is why imho it has much more of a glimmer of hope of happening. If the company says no, then I'll keep voting no.

It has been proven by many other airlines now that an industry standard contract will not break the bank. Yes, management will scream and kick saying we will break the back of the company... Thats their job. In the end, it will be OK. In just the few years I have been here, our stock price has more than tripled. It's our turn now to get some of the earnings.

I do see your point, but think we can do much better for ALL of us. Lets not make this a junior vs senior discussion. Instead, lets pull together and get it fixed for ALL of us. There are parts of this contract that need fixing at all seniority levels... Scope, retirement, pay and work rules... We're all in this together. Have a great day.

 

[HAL]

HAL, this is where I respectfully have to disagree. I think even you as a senior guy deserve more days off too. We work much more than any other major airline. This is too much productivity for management at OUR expense.

Being here for a while doesn't make me senior in my position. For me, I have to bid reduced days off to get a line because I'm relatively junior as an Airbus Captain. I can't get longhaul flying when I bid, even though I try, because I'm too junior. LAS, LAX, SEA, and maybe SFO are the only things within my reach. And that would come with maybe 9 or 10 days off for the month. I'd love to have more days off, but with our schedule, it doesn't happen.

I certainly understand and agree with your push for an industry standard contract. I'm only saying that what you are asking for at HA may not be industry standard because of the specifics of our route structure. For something to be 'industry standard', all parts would have to equal (roughly) what other airlines are doing. I'm all for a 5+ minimum daily credit. That is industry standard. It would make my life and schedule much, much better. The part that may not be industry standard is how much soft time that would create in our schedules. If the 'industry standard is, say, 5% extra, whereas our 5+ hour daily minimum would create a 33% extra soft time, that isn't industry standard. It is far and above, and no negotiator (or arbitrator) would allow it. You can't have one part (industry standard daily minimum) without the other (industry standard soft time). If we want to be 'industry leading', how far can we push it? Again, I'm all for asking for it. But the truth is that in the real world of contract negotiations, there are limits and boundaries that we'll run up against, and no amount of talking, picketing, or striking would change it. This is about learning the limitations we may run up against, and how we can work around them to still get the best contract possible. I just don't want to see a sizeable portion of our pilot group asking for something that we are simply not going to get, and then complaining that we 'didn't try hard enough'. If we can understand how the system works - both the good & bad - we'll be better prepared to get what is possible.

If someone comes up with a solution that would allow for 5+ minimum days, as well as taking care of the soft time it would create, then we can all shout 'Hurrah!', and sign a great contract. If there is no solution, we have to understand why, what we can do about it, and still work to improve all sections of the contract.

HAL

 

[sk00tar]

Do you guys believe that Hawaiian will see a contract on par with the big 3 or something lesser due to the nature of the company's operations. Right now HAL widebody pilots are making quite bit less than their mainland counterparts.

Thanks for your thoughts

 

[Junkflyer]

I think if you would find that our pilots fly more block hours than any other big player. The union should research the numbers and use them as a tool during negotiations.
The interisland reserrves often fly 50+ hours per month.

 

[Hawaiian 5-0]

Junk... It's not so much block hours as it is less days off. Two different pilots from two different carriers can fly the same block hours, while one guy gets a lot more days off. Think proration. Throw in soft time and it really gets confusing. One pilot can work 75 hours and get paid for 95, while the other works 95 and gets 95. Clear as mud???

 

[Hawaiian 5-0]

HAL... Good points. It ain't going to be easy.

 

[Jim]

Do you guys believe that Hawaiian will see a contract on par with the big 3 or something lesser due to the nature of the company's operations. Right now HAL widebody pilots are making quite bit less than their mainland counterparts.

Thanks for your thoughts

We had equivalency when we signed our current contract, I expect equivalency again with the next.

The problem we face now is the length of our current contract. The others have all had at least two additional contracts since we signed.