HA - Latest System Bid

[BentOver]

Can't for the life of me figure out why more guys don't bid reserve??

Lose maybe 9 hrs of pay, but get to be channel surfing for 20-25 days a month depending on how you bid..... And in my case maybe lose a few hundred bucks...

The way our trips are made, being a junior line holder offers no QOL in terms of days off... It's basically either do 9-12 straight days of work... Or do 3 on 1-2 off for the month....

I got tired of getting 3-4 back-to-back 3 days....

Next contract needs to improve in this area.15-18 days off would be the norm, not the exception

 

[HA25]

Can't for the life of me figure out why more guys don't bid reserve??

because 12 days off sucks and now with the 330 being so low on pilots you get short called out near midnight... But I agree, 15-18 days off is what should be the center of gravity on a widebody not 9-12... (guys waiving days off to get a bidline)

 

[HAL]

But I agree, 15-18 days off is what should be the center of gravity on a widebody not 9-12

You and I have discussed this before, but for the others... Just remember the differences you get when you work for a small airline. We have far fewer trips to work with in order to get a good line. It's not like a huge mega-carrier where scheduling can manipulate the trips to get a difference of a few minutes here and there to make the schedule more comfortable. For us, it's really bidding in blocks of 5+ hours, with very little ability to lengthen or shorten a layover. Since so many of our destinations are single-flight airports, you can't juggle your schedule to leave whenever you want - you have to wait until the next flight. And that is driven by marketing, not by crew scheduling. Having 15 to 18 days off would be great - and it can be done by the senior guys bidding SYD or JFK or PEK etc. But after those trips are snapped up we're left with some very unproductive 3-day LAX, LAS, etc. Do we force the senior guys to pick up those trips too, to spread the wealth? Not a chance. Do we force the airline to change the departure times so the trips are more productive for us? Not unless you want all our passengers to head to another airline. Do you want the airline to pay us for 85 hours when we actually flew only 40? Not unless you want the airline to go bankrupt again. There are of course things we can work on during this contract cycle, including the usual suspects that help QOL.

When it comes down to it, every airline job is a bunch of tradeoffs. We get to know most of the people we fly with, work for an airline that is doing well, and enjoy the environment (and some of the destinations) we work in. The tradeoffs are a less-than-perfect schedule for more junior pilots and less flexibility in bidding.

HAL

 

[waveflyer]

I bet HAL, there are solutions within the union that aren't looked at so senior pilots keep their cushy schedules.
I know Hawaii brings complications
You have some good points, it's one of the reasons SWA is a good job- all the pilots fly all 650 airplanes-
I would just caution against the "not a chance" line above.
That kind of schedule fracturing within a union can severely hamper unity.

I'll ask your hypothetical a different way- do you really want a minority of your pilots having sweet schedules while the majority are on regional schedules?

15 days off isn't that much on wide body flying

 

[HA25]

The solution isn't changing anything with the airline schedule. The solution is trip rigs so my 3 day trip pays more than 11 hours.

 

[General Lee]

That's why the company is always complaining about sick leave being so high. They fail to realize that little things like allowing more schedule flexibility will decrease sick leave. Most of our managers, particularly those involved in scheduling, are absolutely clueless.

The solution isn't changing anything with the airline schedule. The solution is trip rigs so my 3 day trip pays more than 11 hours.

A min 5:15 per day would work with those 3 day trips. Starting Nov 1st at DL, every day of the trip (unless arrival back at base between 12 Midnight and 2am local) is credited 5:15. All 3 days worth 15:45, 4 days worth 21 hours, etc. That would help you guys, maybe one less 2 or 3 day trip at the end of the month.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[HA25]

A min 5:15 per day would work with those 3 day trips. Starting Nov 1st at DL, every day of the trip (unless arrival back at base between 12 Midnight and 2am local) is credited 5:15. All 3 days worth 15:45, 4 days worth 21 hours, etc. That would help you guys, maybe one less 2 or 3 day trip at the end of the month.


Bye Bye---General Lee

that is the plan General.....

btw, does your rig pay the greater of? or an average of?

i.e. .. if you do a 3 day trip that has a 10 hours on day 1, hotel sit for 24 hours, then fly back for 8 hours.. do you get 18? or do you get the 18+ 5.15 = 23.15??

 

[General Lee]

that is the plan General.....

btw, does your rig pay the greater of? or an average of?

i.e. .. if you do a 3 day trip that has a 10 hours on day 1, hotel sit for 24 hours, then fly back for 8 hours.. do you get 18? or do you get the 18+ 5.15 = 23.15??

That is a good question. I believe it will be the average, a 4 day will be worth 21. Each day is worth at least 5:15, and the average will be 21. There are plenty of 4 day trips now that end early on day 4 worth 18 or 19 hours, so that will change that. All of the ATL to South America ER long trips (GRU, SCL, and EZE are worth a bit less than 20 hours), so those will be bumped up to 21, and those end with an allnighter back in ATL by 630am or so. Those have 35-37 hour layovers down there.

Maybe Bill Lumberg or NWAF16 will correct me.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Mercyful Fate]

That is a good question. I believe it will be the average, a 4 day will be worth 21. Each day is worth at least 5:15, and the average will be 21. There are plenty of 4 day trips now that end early on day 4 worth 18 or 19 hours, so that will change that. All of the ATL to South America ER long trips (GRU, SCL, and EZE are worth a bit less than 20 hours), so those will be bumped up to 21, and those end with an allnighter back in ATL by 630am or so. Those have 35-37 hour layovers down there.

Maybe Bill Lumberg or NWAF16 will correct me.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Yea, ask a real pilot that can correct you

 

[General Lee]

that is the plan General.....

btw, does your rig pay the greater of? or an average of?

i.e. .. if you do a 3 day trip that has a 10 hours on day 1, hotel sit for 24 hours, then fly back for 8 hours.. do you get 18? or do you get the 18+ 5.15 = 23.15??

Those trips that I mentioned, to GRU/SCL/EZE, have 35-37 hours on the ground and I don't think they will add 5:15 to the total because of the new rule. It will average 21 hours minimum for a 4 day trip. That's an additional 2 hours of pay on one of those trips, or an extra 8 hours of pay per month if you do four of those, not bad. The 3 day Hawaii trips from LA with an allnighter attached on the end (arriving at 6am day 3) used to be worth normal block pay, maybe 11 or so hours. In the last contract it went to 13:30 min for a 3 day trip, so that was about a 2:30 raise. According to an LAX based pilot I know, that same trip would be worth 15:45 in November, and that's not good for that LAX base, since the scheduling computer doesn't like giving a lot of credit time for trips, and will either add those Hawaii flights onto 4 day trips that first go somewhere in the mainland (like LAX-MSP-SLC) the first day, and then onto Hawaii (SLC-LAX-OGG etc), or give that flying to another base (like ATL or NYC) and have that flying mixed into one of their trips. It might be bad for the LAX guys, because the extra credit is not something the airline wants to "give away."



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[HAL]

A min 5:15 per day would work with those 3 day trips. Starting Nov 1st at DL, every day of the trip (unless arrival back at base between 12 Midnight and 2am local) is credited 5:15. All 3 days worth 15:45, 4 days worth 21 hours, etc. That would help you guys, maybe one less 2 or 3 day trip at the end of the month.


Bye Bye---General Lee

General, on average, how many actual hours flight time is there on three-day trips at DL? If it is something close to 15:45, then the company has done a good job putting together schedules. The problem for us is that most of the three-day trips to the west coast are in the 11 to 12 hour range, meaning if we were paid for 15:45 we'd be having the company pay an extra 4+ hours that we didn't fly, or in other words, an extra 33% or more for the same flying. At other airlines the daily trip rig is to force the company into making the schedules as efficient as possible. What could HA do to tack on those extra 4 hours within that same trip and make it more efficient?

So here's a question for my HA friends; if we got a 33% raise on this contract would you be happy, and not push for a daily trip rig? Or if you still want one, how would you suggest HA make their schedules more efficient? Remember - the purpose of the daily trip rig is to force the company to schedule more efficiently, not to take more than you've earned.

HAL

 

[HAL]

I bet HAL, there are solutions within the union that aren't looked at so senior pilots keep their cushy schedules.
I know Hawaii brings complications
You have some good points, it's one of the reasons SWA is a good job- all the pilots fly all 650 airplanes-
I would just caution against the "not a chance" line above.
That kind of schedule fracturing within a union can severely hamper unity.

I'll ask your hypothetical a different way- do you really want a minority of your pilots having sweet schedules while the majority are on regional schedules?

15 days off isn't that much on wide body flying

Wave, the difference between SWA and HA's schedules is huge. At SWA, with one type of plane, thousands of flights to mix & match, and all flying of a similar length, the computers can put together pairings (or lines) that maximize efficiency. At HA however there are 3-day LAX trips for 11 hours, and 3-day PEK trips that are worth almost 22 hours. Are you suggesting that the union force senior pilots to not bid for the PEK trip, and fly six days of LAX trips to get the same pay? That would never happen at any airline I know of. And that is just the nature of the schedules at a small airline with a far-flung route network like HA. If you can think of a better way, let me know.

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of our people would vote against getting rid of our PBS system, because despite its faults, you still end up better off than with paper lines.

HAL

 

[Jim]

So here's a question for my HA friends; if we got a 33% raise on this contract would you be happy, and not push for a daily trip rig? Or if you still want one, how would you suggest HA make their schedules more efficient? Remember - the purpose of the daily trip rig is to force the company to schedule more efficiently, not to take more than you've earned.

HAL

We need a huge pay raise to get us back to Delta/AA/UAL average.

Plus we need a daily trip rig of at least 5 hours.

Plus we need a lot more. Pay and workrules. One is not exclusive of the other and both need improvements.

 

[waveflyer]

HAL, I agree. We can and do fly transcons followed by a 2 hour leg, or a jaunt up or down the coast once we're there.
That's not something hawaiian does at this point. But then again, isn't that the company's issue?
You all run 28 OGG-HNL flights all with 717's- why couldn't a 767 do a round trip for an extra couple of hours after you arrive? Why couldn't an east bound west coast flight do the same?
It seems that the low credit trips are all U.S. Mainland on the beginning or end, so it's not like you need permission to add shorter legs.
Why do pilots need to finance the hawaiian model?

Necessity is the mother of invention, I know it's not that simple- and it's easy for a 737 pilot to talk about that since turning one is pretty easy and it was built for the shorter flights.

As for Asia -
And the parity of pairings, that's a union issue. Why and how are lines built? That should be something the union has an active role in, and the union ought to REPRESENT ALL pilots, not just the senior.

Why are those very efficient pairings grouped together in the same line? Why give a senior pilot 88 hours on 4 PEK 3-days, while other lines get stuck with 6 LAX 3 days worth a lot less? One guy has 18 days off and the other 12?
QOL and pay, those lines could be combined so each pilot has 15 days off, right?

You don't give a junior pilot a discount on union dues, so that's what ought to happen.

Juniority should mean working weekends and holidays, not flying every last inefficient trip and completely destroying their life.

In other words, you might just have to get creative. And change your attitude towards what senior pilots "deserve".
Junior pay the same percentage in dues as the senior and ought to have equal representation in what the union actually does control.

 

[Jim]

You all run 28 OGG-HNL flights all with 717's- why couldn't a 767 do a round trip for an extra couple of hours after you arrive?

Because the 767 engines and the plane itself are not made to fly 15 minute legs. It would significantly increase maintenance costs and failures. We flew 767s interisland HNL-OGG out of necessity the summer Aloha went out of business so this is not a guess but a known fact.

The reason we fly 717s interisland is because it can take this punishment. We worked with Boeing and Rolls Royce extensively when we brought them on line and RR actually made some significant engine changes to better handle the short legs.

Aloha kept getting waivers to fly 737-200s interisland for the same reason. It would have torn their 737-800s up.

But the A321Neo is a different beast and that is exactly what is planned when they start coming on line.

There are rumors of flying one of our older 767s interisland next summer instead of retiring it to the desert. In this case they figure it's getting parked anyway so why not.