HA - Latest System Bid

[sk00tar]

Delta is starting their new round of contract talks. Hal is already a cycle behind. Is parity for the last set of industry standard contracts or the what is being negotiated in 2015 by Delta.

If you were to speculate what are the top 3 items the Hawaiian pilot group wants to address in the next contract.

Thanks

 

[Jim]

Delta is starting their new round of contract talks. Hal is already a cycle behind. Is parity for the last set of industry standard contracts or the what is being negotiated in 2015 by Delta.

If you were to speculate what are the top 3 items the Hawaiian pilot group wants to address in the next contract.

Thanks

Whatever is in effect or will be in effect when we sign.

Top 3?
Pay, workrules and retirement..... We haven't even had openers yet and have to get our new union reps in place before anyone can narrow it down for you anymore than that.

 

[Microclimates]

1. SCOPE! a much tighter leash on ohana. not just a minimum block guarantee for HAL, but also a max block to ohana. ensuring that inter-island growth doesn't go to them only.

2. Pay (not just captain's pay rate, also FO rate-- our pay as a percentage of captains' pay is well below industry standard... )

3. soft time: a. minimum daily guarantee so that junior line holders don't have to give up days off just to get a line. b. training pay. c. vacation pay d. no proration bullsht

4. QOL: e.g. long call reserve (commuting policy is not realistic-- long call is),

 

[mdanno808]

For the guys who were here during the bankruptcy, Retirement is going to be number one. We have captains hired in 99-01 who's company contribution is 6-7%.

 

[Microclimates]

yes but they also have a defined benefits package to go with it.

 

[mdanno808]

Yes we do. So how much would it take in the db package to make up for a company contribution less than half of industry standard? Remember, those in the b plan getting less than 15% were the youngest & most junior with at most 5 years longevity when this plan was created, so we all have very little in our db fund. I can tell you my a fund payout is calculated at just over $600/month. I would gladly forfeit that minuscule amount to more than double my company contribution & receive what the new hires (and the rest of the industry) are getting.

 

[HA25]

HAL is a good friend, a wonderful instructor and a great captain by all accounts but I have to disagree with his view about our route structure being an obstacle to getting rigs.. I sit here and type this from ICN on a 5 day trip where if I had the Delta current rig, I'd be making another 4 hours pay.. Delta is staying at the same hotel, as is American, UPS, and foreign carriers.. we ALL do the same thing.

There are pocket bases at all of the major carriers with route structures much like ours.. I will also remind HAL that the secondary bidlines that the COMPANY wanted to keep and that the union finally revoked paid a pilot 75 hours of credit, for about 60 hours of flying.. 13-14 days off... Proof that they can afford it.

We don't need to go to the table with the white flag raised, talking about "what are you willing to give up" when we have nothing TO give up (maybe except industry leading per diem)... the fact remains, Hawaiian is a Legacy Airline, like Alaska, like Delta and like Amerian... those our our peers.. and those are the guys by which our CBA must be measured.

The tide has turned, the MEC recall that took place was a shot across the bow of defeatism and "we'll we can't afford to be like Delta"... those are the kinds of slogans that Mark D as programmed many of our pilots to believe, but thankfully most of us don't.

 

[fly4surf]

^^^like^^^

Think you are right and I am also starting to think it's going to be quite a fight for those increases.

 

[HA25]

Yes we do. So how much would it take in the db package to make up for a company contribution less than half of industry standard? Remember, those in the b plan getting less than 15% were the youngest & most junior with at most 5 years longevity when this plan was created, so we all have very little in our db fund. I can tell you my a fund payout is calculated at just over $600/month. I would gladly forfeit that minuscule amount to more than double my company contribution & receive what the new hires (and the rest of the industry) are getting.

it's simple, you should be able to opt out, give back the frozen A portion and join us at 15%.. full stop.

 

[Microclimates]

HA25 +1 on all counts!
regarding b plan: I didn't mean to belittle the issue, and I know that the 'junior' b planners got a mediocre deal (then again, in this industry 'junior' is synonymous with 'mediocre deal')... opting out seems to be the easiest fix, I would imagine.

as far as trip rig, also a hearty +1. If anything, this will be an incentive for more efficient pairings! so it's a win win for everyone: pilots get to work when they are at work, and be home when they are not working. the company gets better crew utilization, and not burning reserves on 5 day trips when people call in sick.

Also, from my perspective the issue isn't very much the 5 day international stuff (which is a function of non-daily flight schedules), it's the stupid 3 day lax, or 4 day vegas that, frankly, are inefficient because the company has no incentive to tweak the schedules to make them efficient.

 

[HAL]

Also, from my perspective the issue isn't very much the 5 day international stuff (which is a function of non-daily flight schedules), it's the stupid 3 day lax, or 4 day vegas that, frankly, are inefficient because the company has no incentive to tweak the schedules to make them efficient.

When did it become the pilot's job to tell the airline when to schedule its flights?

Again, this isn't me being in favor of the management's side, but rather dealing with reality. Is the company purposely scheduling the flights like this to mess with the pilot's lifestyles? Or are they scheduling the flights to maximize passenger interest, thereby filling more seats and paying our salaries? If the union can show that a few minutes difference in schedules can increase pilot efficiency, then go for it. But if the company shows that the same schedule change results in decreased loads and less profit, then why are we asking for it?

I've been around this industry long enough to remember when unions asked for the sky, and in some cases got it. In all of those cases the contract was quickly followed by bankruptcy, furloughs, and sometimes liquidation. The common thread in all those negotiations was a lack of reality on both sides. The pilots just wanted more - period - and to heck with the consequences. The airlines thought the good times would never end, and the big bucks would never stop rolling in. Today, the airlines have taken a forced course in fiscal reality. If we don't do the same, we're bringing a boxing glove to a gun fight. We need to be prepared by knowing EXACTLY what is possible, then push for every cent of that. It's called being prepared, informed, and smart. Push for something that isn't possible, no matter how much you want it, and you're setting yourself up for bitter disappointment and a fractured pilot group.

For HA25, yes, other airlines pay a daily minimum on ICN trips. And again I'll ask, what percentage of the total paid pilot time is soft time for those airlines? If it is in line with the rest of the industry, fine. If we can show that our schedules don't have a higher percentage of soft time, we should have it too. If we're at a much higher percentage, we need to find out if an arbitrator might be willing to consider giving it to us. If the answer is yes, again, go for it. If not however, we have to face the reality of it and move on to something we can get. These are the questions an arbitrator WILL ask, and if we haven't prepared ourselves with the answer already, there is no point in asking it in the first place. That is how negotiations work in today's economy.

HAL

 

[Hawaiian 5-0]

HAL, with all due respect, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

It's not the unions job to tell the airline WHEN to schedule the flights... It's the unions job to tell the company when and what to PAY the pilots. Once we're paid for our hotel days, the new economics will sort out the flight schedules.

If the company wants to send us on 3-5 day trips where we're sitting in hotels, fine. The company can PAY us for those 3-5 days we are sitting in the hotels. Per-diem is not pay, it's expense reimbursement. We need to be paid like everyone else is.

You have been around here for a long time and have my respect for that. Please understand though that many of us newer guys have been around the block at other airlines before coming here. It's not the 9-11 era anymore. the economy has recovered and all of the airlines, including ours, are doing well. This is not my first rodeo either.

This won't go to arbitration, because it's a slam dunk. All of the other major/legacy airlines are getting paid for their days in hotels. We are not. Again, per-diem is not pay. those other guys are getting per-diem AND pay. I think the NMB would flat out release us over the lack of duty rigs... No arbitration needed. Our contract is that deficient.

IMHO, it is not an unreasonable request to actually be paid for a day that you are forced not to be home. Everyone else in our industry, and pretty much every other industry gets paid for days when they are on company assignment. A day sitting in a hotel is a company assignment, thus a work day. It should be paid.

Sir, it's not the 9-11 era anymore. Everyone else is making gains. There is no reason that we cannot make the same gains.

Sir, I am well familiar with the famous United contract that helped the Golden Goose to death... I don't even want to choke the Golden Goose... I just expect the Golden Goose to to be industry competitive with our next contract. Again, our stock price has tripled in the few years I have been here. It's time we got a part of that.

Hey... I'm not saying it's going to be an easy fight. We are going to have to pull out all the stops to make this happen.

Again, you have my complete respect as you are a senior Captain. We are just looking at this differently. I hope I get a trip with you some day and we can discuss this going over the pond. Have a good night.

 

[HA25]

^^^like^^^

Think you are right and I am also starting to think it's going to be quite a fight for those increases.

You're damn right it will. I've got my body armor on, you?

 

[HA25]

I think if you would find that our pilots fly more block hours than any other big player. The union should research the numbers and use them as a tool during negotiations.
The interisland reserrves often fly 50+ hours per month.

the reserve staffing formula (even when it's actually being applied) is a joke here... they rely on overtimers, double time and reserves to fly all the time... It might on balance be cheaper than hiring a few pilots more, but the cost to the stress it brings to both middle managers / schedulers and pilots is unwarranted.... I'm in my 7th day of reserve and I've yet to sit ... 2 back to back international trips, and looking at the open time, I'm sure I've got one waiting for me when I get back.

There is going to be a reckoning when we sit at the table for section 6 to discuss rigs, staffing, minimum guarantee (many of us want to bid below 75).... etc..

btw, our FA's are always running fat... and can bid down to 40 hours a month.. On balance, they've got far better work rules than we do.

 

[HA25]

For HA25, yes, other airlines pay a daily minimum on ICN trips. And again I'll ask, what percentage of the total paid pilot time is soft time for those airlines? If it is in line with the rest of the industry, fine. If we can show that our schedules don't have a higher percentage of soft time, we should have it too. If we're at a much higher percentage, we need to find out if an arbitrator might be willing to consider giving it to us. If the answer is yes, again, go for it. If not however, we have to face the reality of it and move on to something we can get. These are the questions an arbitrator WILL ask, and if we haven't prepared ourselves with the answer already, there is no point in asking it in the first place. That is how negotiations work in today's economy.

HAL

My friend, if you think paying the pilots an additional $1500-$2000 for a LAX or LAS 3 day trip is going to break the bank on the 330 you're wrong. The money made on a round trip with domestic loads of 92% plus not to mention the cargo the 330 carries is stupidly higher than that.. the margins will go down, and the share holders and management will simply have to take smaller bonuses and dividends, that's all. Why is it our place to subsidize their income?? Moreover, the number of days off pilots get here (especially on the junior side) is a complete joke... the worse schedule at DAL on the 330 is 15-16 days off... 20+ on the senior side. Reserve at 12 days off is also a joke... Allegiant like.. Or as one FO calls us "The Mesa of the majors" .. sigh.

I've flown with captains who fly .84 on LAS turns where the additional fuel burn is over $2000 ... nobody says a thing.

And what about those secondary bid lines that Brad O was absolutely in love with?? 60 hours of flying 13-14 days off with 75 hours of pay, clearly the lower productivity isn't a bank breaking hardship..