HA - Latest System Bid

[HAL]

A min 5:15 per day would work with those 3 day trips. Starting Nov 1st at DL, every day of the trip (unless arrival back at base between 12 Midnight and 2am local) is credited 5:15. All 3 days worth 15:45, 4 days worth 21 hours, etc. That would help you guys, maybe one less 2 or 3 day trip at the end of the month.


Bye Bye---General Lee

General, on average, how many actual hours flight time is there on three-day trips at DL? If it is something close to 15:45, then the company has done a good job putting together schedules. The problem for us is that most of the three-day trips to the west coast are in the 11 to 12 hour range, meaning if we were paid for 15:45 we'd be having the company pay an extra 4+ hours that we didn't fly, or in other words, an extra 33% or more for the same flying. At other airlines the daily trip rig is to force the company into making the schedules as efficient as possible. What could HA do to tack on those extra 4 hours within that same trip and make it more efficient?

So here's a question for my HA friends; if we got a 33% raise on this contract would you be happy, and not push for a daily trip rig? Or if you still want one, how would you suggest HA make their schedules more efficient? Remember - the purpose of the daily trip rig is to force the company to schedule more efficiently, not to take more than you've earned.

HAL

 

[HAL]

I bet HAL, there are solutions within the union that aren't looked at so senior pilots keep their cushy schedules.
I know Hawaii brings complications
You have some good points, it's one of the reasons SWA is a good job- all the pilots fly all 650 airplanes-
I would just caution against the "not a chance" line above.
That kind of schedule fracturing within a union can severely hamper unity.

I'll ask your hypothetical a different way- do you really want a minority of your pilots having sweet schedules while the majority are on regional schedules?

15 days off isn't that much on wide body flying

Wave, the difference between SWA and HA's schedules is huge. At SWA, with one type of plane, thousands of flights to mix & match, and all flying of a similar length, the computers can put together pairings (or lines) that maximize efficiency. At HA however there are 3-day LAX trips for 11 hours, and 3-day PEK trips that are worth almost 22 hours. Are you suggesting that the union force senior pilots to not bid for the PEK trip, and fly six days of LAX trips to get the same pay? That would never happen at any airline I know of. And that is just the nature of the schedules at a small airline with a far-flung route network like HA. If you can think of a better way, let me know.

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of our people would vote against getting rid of our PBS system, because despite its faults, you still end up better off than with paper lines.

HAL

 

[Jim]

So here's a question for my HA friends; if we got a 33% raise on this contract would you be happy, and not push for a daily trip rig? Or if you still want one, how would you suggest HA make their schedules more efficient? Remember - the purpose of the daily trip rig is to force the company to schedule more efficiently, not to take more than you've earned.

HAL

We need a huge pay raise to get us back to Delta/AA/UAL average.

Plus we need a daily trip rig of at least 5 hours.

Plus we need a lot more. Pay and workrules. One is not exclusive of the other and both need improvements.

 

[waveflyer]

HAL, I agree. We can and do fly transcons followed by a 2 hour leg, or a jaunt up or down the coast once we're there.
That's not something hawaiian does at this point. But then again, isn't that the company's issue?
You all run 28 OGG-HNL flights all with 717's- why couldn't a 767 do a round trip for an extra couple of hours after you arrive? Why couldn't an east bound west coast flight do the same?
It seems that the low credit trips are all U.S. Mainland on the beginning or end, so it's not like you need permission to add shorter legs.
Why do pilots need to finance the hawaiian model?

Necessity is the mother of invention, I know it's not that simple- and it's easy for a 737 pilot to talk about that since turning one is pretty easy and it was built for the shorter flights.

As for Asia -
And the parity of pairings, that's a union issue. Why and how are lines built? That should be something the union has an active role in, and the union ought to REPRESENT ALL pilots, not just the senior.

Why are those very efficient pairings grouped together in the same line? Why give a senior pilot 88 hours on 4 PEK 3-days, while other lines get stuck with 6 LAX 3 days worth a lot less? One guy has 18 days off and the other 12?
QOL and pay, those lines could be combined so each pilot has 15 days off, right?

You don't give a junior pilot a discount on union dues, so that's what ought to happen.

Juniority should mean working weekends and holidays, not flying every last inefficient trip and completely destroying their life.

In other words, you might just have to get creative. And change your attitude towards what senior pilots "deserve".
Junior pay the same percentage in dues as the senior and ought to have equal representation in what the union actually does control.

 

[Jim]

You all run 28 OGG-HNL flights all with 717's- why couldn't a 767 do a round trip for an extra couple of hours after you arrive?

Because the 767 engines and the plane itself are not made to fly 15 minute legs. It would significantly increase maintenance costs and failures. We flew 767s interisland HNL-OGG out of necessity the summer Aloha went out of business so this is not a guess but a known fact.

The reason we fly 717s interisland is because it can take this punishment. We worked with Boeing and Rolls Royce extensively when we brought them on line and RR actually made some significant engine changes to better handle the short legs.

Aloha kept getting waivers to fly 737-200s interisland for the same reason. It would have torn their 737-800s up.

But the A321Neo is a different beast and that is exactly what is planned when they start coming on line.

There are rumors of flying one of our older 767s interisland next summer instead of retiring it to the desert. In this case they figure it's getting parked anyway so why not.

 

[Hawaiian 5-0]

When it comes down to it, every airline job is a bunch of tradeoffs. We get to know most of the people we fly with, work for an airline that is doing well, and enjoy the environment (and some of the destinations) we work in. The tradeoffs are a less-than-perfect schedule for more junior pilots and less flexibility in bidding.

Sir, with all due respect, I disagree. The days of zero sum negotiating are past. Thank goodness. It's a new century and the airlines cant just go 911 911 911 911 911 anymore. It's time to pay up. The current contract is still full of concessionary give backs. Can you say pro-ration... No more, please.

There is no doubt in my mind that we can get a five hour DPM, AND a 20% pay raise. I'll keep voting no until we get close to that. While we're at it, don't forget about scope and the B-Plan too. Yes, I want it all, and am willing to do what ever it legally takes.

With a good DPM, the three days will take care of themselves. They will either go away, or start paying very well. We are not talking about moving the departure/arrival times around by too much. An hour in the evening and an hour in the morning will make the flight legal for part 117, and not destroy the route. It's time for an industry competitive if not industry leading contract.

Times are good. We need to take advantage of them and get what we can now. Heaven knows that when times are bad, the airlines will get what they can from us. It works BOTH ways.

 

[General Lee]

General, on average, how many actual hours flight time is there on three-day trips at DL? If it is something close to 15:45, then the company has done a good job putting together schedules. The problem for us is that most of the three-day trips to the west coast are in the 11 to 12 hour range, meaning if we were paid for 15:45 we'd be having the company pay an extra 4+ hours that we didn't fly, or in other words, an extra 33% or more for the same flying. At other airlines the daily trip rig is to force the company into making the schedules as efficient as possible. What could HA do to tack on those extra 4 hours within that same trip and make it more efficient?

So here's a question for my HA friends; if we got a 33% raise on this contract would you be happy, and not push for a daily trip rig? Or if you still want one, how would you suggest HA make their schedules more efficient? Remember - the purpose of the daily trip rig is to force the company to schedule more efficiently, not to take more than you've earned.

HAL

HAL,

Looking at those LA trips to Hawaii for November (when the new 5:15 per day average takes place), the two leg trips to Hawaii with an allnighter back to LA at the end appear to be worth 15:45, even though they actually fly 11 hours or so. I thought they would add some mainland domestic to those trips to take away some of the credit time, but it doesn't appear that they have done that yet. As far as regular domestic trips in ATL or DTW, they have more city pairs to try to get that credit down, but a lot of the trips seem to have at least a couple hours credit, which is good for the pilot group. But, they may still be working on the computer program to try to get the trips as close as they can to 15:45 for a 3 day and 21 hours for a 4 day. Some bases, like DTW/MSP/SEA/SLC actually have some 5 day domestic trips, so those of course would be worth 26:15. So far, it looks good for the pilots. (Some benefit to the new agreement, more money or fewer trips needed to fill up)

In ATL, the trip to Quito (UIO) may actually go fairly senior. A 3 day with two legs that leaves late the first day, a bit more than 10 hours block after the allnighter back to ATL, with about 5 hours of credit. (15:45). Not bad.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Junkflyer]

Agree HAL, the vacation pay and training pay are bankruptcy concessions that should have been brought back to full value with no negotiating capital spent on the last contract. The scope clause is already starting affect the 717 lines.
Lots of money going around and lots of hiring of managers and directors, but labor is always short staffed.

 

[Dan Roman]

Sir, with all due respect, I disagree. The days of zero sum negotiating are past. Thank goodness. It's a new century and the airlines cant just go 911 911 911 911 911 anymore. It's time to pay up. The current contract is still full of concessionary give backs. Can you say pro-ration... No more, please.

There is no doubt in my mind that we can get a five hour DPM, AND a 20% pay raise. I'll keep voting no until we get close to that. While we're at it, don't forget about scope and the B-Plan too. Yes, I want it all, and am willing to do what ever it legally takes.

With a good DPM, the three days will take care of themselves. They will either go away, or start paying very well. We are not talking about moving the departure/arrival times around by too much. An hour in the evening and an hour in the morning will make the flight legal for part 117, and not destroy the route. It's time for an industry competitive if not industry leading contract.

Times are good. We need to take advantage of them and get what we can now. Heaven knows that when times are bad, the airlines will get what they can from us. It works BOTH ways.

Five O, I see it's your first post here. That's a good thing. We need new blood getting involved. I'm old school Hawaiian, I'm from the group that got us to where we are. Half the HA pilots have been hired in the last 6 years and we are going to double the seniority list in the next 5. You folks are the future, we need to change are mindset on the past while respecting what was accomplished, but the reality is we do need to pull together and get a good contract. I agree with a lot of what you say. We have created a very successful airline that should not just benefit management and stockholders.
We are about to enter a whole new era with the MEC change, I am cautiously optimistic we can get a good contract. But it will take a very insightful MEC that can blend a lot of different perspectives into one that can move forward, otherwise we'll just end up like USAPA.

 

[waveflyer]

Because the 767 engines and the plane itself are not made to fly 15 minute legs. It would significantly increase maintenance costs and failures. We flew 767s interisland HNL-OGG out of necessity the summer Aloha went out of business so this is not a guess but a known fact.

The reason we fly 717s interisland is because it can take this punishment. We worked with Boeing and Rolls Royce extensively when we brought them on line and RR actually made some significant engine changes to better handle the short legs.

Aloha kept getting waivers to fly 737-200s interisland for the same reason. It would have torn their 737-800s up.

But the A321Neo is a different beast and that is exactly what is planned when they start coming on line.

There are rumors of flying one of our older 767s interisland next summer instead of retiring it to the desert. In this case they figure it's getting parked anyway so why not.

Well, the neo is the future, so a contract ought to be based on that more than anything.
I do want to emphasize that you're still making management's problems your problem.

(I won't pretend to be a marketing expert or a pilot CEO - in that specific example, the bigger issue for a daily rig is the trip east where tailwinds shorten the length. Once you're on the mainland, there are plenty of 1-2 hour legs that could be possible that won't have the engine issues a 15-20 minute flight would have.

The LARGER point though is your union's involvement in creating lines, not necessarily pairings. Again, senior pilots ought not be averaging 18 days off, while junior pilots pay the same dues, and get 12.
That really shouldn't happen no matter how much you may respect dan roman "building the airline"


(Dan, has that sh/t ever flown? Please, pray tell, what you did to "make hawaiian the airline it is today?- maybe you really did - but I bet you flew your line and got awarded the easiest and best one your seniority could buy. Not a good argument to piss on your junior's QOL.)

Junior HAL pilots, I'd verify that your union is representing you as fairly as they represent your senior.