Gulfstream First Officer Program

[AlohaFlyer]

Re: Apache54:

As a former GIA student and employee, I have some reservations about the company. However, in your case I would say that the First Officer Program is just what you need. After you finish your 250 hours in the 1900 you will most likely get an interview with Pinnacle (Northwest Airlink). With your experience you will almost certainly get the job unless you say something really stupid. Six or eight months from when you start at GIA you could be training in the CRJ. It would work great for you.

The people on here that blast those that PFT are the minority in this business. They are a very vocal minority, but a minority none the less. As B190Captain said earlier, GIA grads have gone on to jobs at just about every major and regional airline there is. Even CoEx, which is very partial to CFI experience, hired many GIA grads before 9/11. It is highly unlikely that you will ever be denied a job because you went to GIA.

Thanks PCL_128.... Thanks to this thread I have decided that GIA is also the right think for me as well. It is good to hear from an ex-GIA grad. I think that these guys have a very professional program, and for someone like me that studies best in an envirnment like that where I can focus on the task on a full time basis, I think it will serve me well...

Thanks Again,

Ryan

 

[airbaker]

Pilot877,

Of course I'm biased, but PFT'ing brought about the same negativities back then as it does now. There's no doubt about it, it was a tough environment back then. Just to meet the average hiring mins at most non-PFT airlines, you needed at least 2500 -3000 tt and 500 - 1000 multi. If memory serves me correctly, Comair, Coex, ACA and ASA were some of the biggest offenders. I used to be based on the East Coast, and can remember numerous occasions where mixed crews would bump into each other (in a terminal, getting a coffee, waiting for a hotel van, etc...). I'm not in any way trying to come across as arrogant, but there was a tangible sense of pride when you'd look at their ID's, and then they'd look at yours...coversations usually became sterile after that.

I know everyone has choices to make. I also in no way think that a PFT'er has inferior flying skills vs. a non-PFT'er. I'd just hope that the bulk of our pilot group won't marginalize pilot compensation in the hopes of "living the dream".

 

[climbhappy]

paid for training

there is no difference in someone doing the PFT thing, and having a friend walk a resume in.

the good ol boy network preferentially excludes those who might be more qualified.

what about all those women Us air and united hired two years ago, from cc air and piedmont and allegany?

they were mostly FO's, and hired instead of more qualified captains.


what bobbymsand and some others fail to realize here is that there is a double standard. They use the checkbook as their sole argument, but deny or discount the value,prevalence and role that buddies walking in resumes play, and hiring quotas.

i have flown with some gulstreamers and they're as good as the kid who instructed.

all the 172 time in the world doesn't mean jack..... and since when do rules in corporate america and this society, except drive 55, apply?

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T v. Contacts

there is no difference in someone doing the PFT thing, and having a friend walk a resume in.

the good ol boy network preferentially excludes those who might be more qualified.

That's preposterous. Think again about what've you've written and you'll see that there's no comparison to having someone walk in a resume for you and paying for a job!!!!!!

For one thing, with P-F-T forking over cash to the company is a condition of employment. In other words, no check, no job. Moreover, walking in resumes is no guarantee of consideration. I know. I tried to get SkyWest's attention for six years. I had a student who had gotten on at Skywest who offered to walk in fresh materials for me. I took her up on it, and even included another $15 application fee check. My check was returned. I was never called.

what about all those women Us air and united hired two years ago, from cc air and piedmont and allegany?

they were mostly FO's, and hired instead of more qualified captains.

That is neither a P-F-T issue or an inside reference issue. That's a subject for another discussion, on affirmative action or whatever.

what bobbymsand and some others fail to realize here is that there is a double standard. They use the checkbook as their sole argument, but deny or discount the value,prevalence and role that buddies walking in resumes play, and hiring quotas.

You cannot say there is a double standard. P-F-T and the old boy network are separate, distinct and mutually exclusive issues. I agree that is unfair that someone may have a father who is friends with a Chief Pilot while others may not, but such advantages are not comparable in any way to P-F-T. Few people decry the value of inside references, but as I learned not even inside references will guarantee you consideration. Sure as shootin', though, your checkbook will.

 

[climbhappy]

nice rebuttal..bobbysamd

i do think the two are closely related in this way. I see your point, but I don't think it is preposterous...

the corellation is as follows: to be hired ahead of anyone for any reason is to bring to light the argument of qualifications versus shortcuts....we'll lump everything that could go into the shortcut pile here, and it would include

1)PFT
2)buddie walks in a resume... (for the record ,I support this and do it all the time)
3) pencil whipping the log book
4) father was a captain, knows all the right people....
5) affirmative action
6) buy a type rating

these all qualify as shortcuts if we define one as any vehicle which accelerates or propels another pilot into a position ahead of one who is and has taken conventional means to their career
(i.e. flight instruct, part 135 freight/pax, regional, major. we'll include fractional here as well.

there you have it, bobby! my case for the point made.

as far as the double standard, a system that uses minimums qualifications as benchmarks , then picks up low timers and PFTrs' to hold down training costs is a double standard. hiring female who'll never upgrade because they can't is a double standard.

the good ol boy network ,although alive and well, still excludes otherwise more qualified applicants.

Have you ever had a freind remark...."there is no rhyme or reason" for the interview result that either failed to produce a job or gave one to a friend....

these are companies pursuing business in the same way many other ones do in corporate america....if you have the gold you make the rules....


that's all I can offer for my case.... your witness. if you defeat my shortcut theory...I'm toast

 

[bobbysamd]

Shortcuts v. shortcuts

Originally posted by climbhappy
the corellation is as follows: to be hired ahead of anyone for any reason is to bring to light the argument of qualifications versus shortcuts

Now that you put it that way, we agree more than we disagree.

Let's define "cutting ahead in line." I regard cutting-ahead primarily as someone less qualified than you using a shortcut to get ahead of you. So, let's analyze each of your shortcuts and put them on an odious v. benign v. "sigh" scale; the latter being throwing your hands up in the air, asking what can you do, and heaving a sigh.

1)PFT

Highest on the odious scale. Used primarily by the 500-hour wonders who whine that they don't wanna be flight instructors, etc.

2)buddie walks in a resume... (for the record ,I support this and do it all the time)

I never saw that that many people walking-in resumes of unqualified friends. There's no money changing hands, no moral or ethical issues. Benign, but more on the "sigh" scale for those who have no one who can walk in a resume for them. In other words, it's not quite fair and sucks if you don't know anyone who can help you. On the other hand, I had four regional airline interviews and was invited to one cattle call without knowing anyone at any of these places.

3) pencil whipping the log book

I think we know where that one belongs.

4) father was a captain, knows all the right people....

Definitely a "sigh." If I had succeeded, became captain, and encountered a new FO who employed that method, my reaction to that person would be icy, at best. And so would most people's.

5) affirmative action.

That is institutionalizing reverse discrimination. Unless you can get Congress to change the law and/or the Supreme Court to rule against affirmative action or favoritism (there is a case now before the Court that deals with favoritism in certain University of Michigan admissions procedures), there's nothing you can do but "sigh." You can also read one of the first Supreme Court cases to deal with reverse discrimination, University of California Regents v. Bakke, 438 U.S. 265 (1978).

Finally,

6) buy a type rating

I don't feel that buying a type rating gives that much of an advantage and really lets one cut in line, unless one already has time in type. If you're driving at the SW B737 type requirement, after reading this board for nearly two years I've gathered that most people aren't bothered especially by that requirement. I'm not. If you want to play ball with Herb, you have to play by his rules. Moreover, you cannot really call it P-F-T because the type is yours. It is on your pilot certificate. You can shop it to anyone who requires a B737 type rating.

as far as the double standard, a system that uses minimums qualifications as benchmarks , then picks up low timers and PFTrs' to hold down training costs is a double standard. hiring female who'll never upgrade because they can't is a double standard.

Agreed on both points, but you shouldn't single out females.

if you have the gold you make the rules....

I see that you, too, have learned The Golden Rule.

Good discussion.

 

[T-Gates]

Nicely Put. But, My point about the furloughees is that some of the folks that would be getting the job at Pinnacle, for example, are not able to b/c of pfters.

I agree with you that, what is done is done and you cant change anything. I am glad that you see who you did and did not effect. I would just like to educate those who are considering it about the pros and cons of it all. Thanks for your input.

No Problem. Not many give the opinion from the "other side" of the fence. (PFT'ing) Which is what I try to do.

--03M

 

[BankAccount=0$]

Not to get too far off the topic here, but after reading these boards for awhile it seems that no matter where one may go to work somebody is going to have bad things to say about it. I'm currently looking for a job....just like 10,000 other guys as qualified or more qualified than myself. So far I've found out that if I went to GulfScream I'm forever branded as a PFT scumbag...... If I go to Mesa I'm whoring myself out for working for a company who's pilots signed a contract that may not have been the cat's meow of all agreements.......I could always buy my time in a turbine from somebody like Eagle Jet Intl. for a boatload of cash, but then I would be displacing a qualified pilot from being hired into that seat right??........ I think the biggest problem with the whole industry is that not enough people tell it like it is when asked about the biz. I'm still teaching, and some of my students come up to me with stars in their eyes and tell me they want to be an airline pilot. I don't try and sugarcoat the way the airline biz works, instead I tell them to go out and buy a copy of Pete Fusco's book "Moondogs Academy of the Air and other Disasters" If after reading the book they still want to go ahead with it then they really can't say they haven't been properly warned.
In the end I guess it doesn't really matter to me what route you choose to get to your dream job, but you have to make your choices very carefully. In my opinion you can buy a job or flight time in just about anything under the sun. But you can never buy the respect of your fellow pilots, and in the end that's all that should really matter..........
TJ

 

[d.fitz]

BankAccount=0$........

Good post!

I saw your signature. Do you still think after all this that a flyin job is better than a non-flyin job?

I am on the extended CFI route with a little corporate experience on the side - recently layed-off. Now I am starting to get the fleeting glimpses of "I wonder if my old career still sucks - the money was sure great!".... knowing that there are 15,000 resumes at every airline right now... back to renting a multi tomorrow for currency...

That might be a topic for a new post however.....

Anyone want to weigh in on that?

Blue Skies...

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Apply at Mesa. You probably can skip the whole Pay For Training thing, get into the right seat of a Jet and look for upgrade in about two years.

Contact Lori Clark over there. 888-634-6372, press 0 and ask the operator to direct your call.

Good luck.