Gulfstream Academy "pilot factory" SCAM Revealed By CNN

[CX880]

No one seems to care that TWO of the crashes were from the same company PINNACLE. 3701 was a Pinnacle flight. 3407 was Colgan (who is owned by Pinnaacle) Why does this not get the attention it deserves? Sure, ex GIA people were on the planes but GIA does not fly the planes they crashed, so........Who trained them on the planes they DID crash? Oh.... ok Pinnacle training. Am I the only person out there that sees this?

CRJ training is very easy, a monkey can pass it, the AP doesn't even go off if you have an engine failure. The colgan guy had it more difficult and it showed by the multiple failures. But if you pass the retake, nothing they can do about it. People slip though the cracks all the time.

 

[B52GUNNER]

CRJ training is very easy, a monkey can pass it, the AP doesn't even go off if you have an engine failure. The colgan guy had it more difficult and it showed by the multiple failures. But if you pass the retake, nothing they can do about it. People slip though the cracks all the time.

So if it is so easy a caveman can do it, and they have wrecked two CRJ airframes 3701 and the MKE incident that doesn't get talked about since no one was hurt, dont you think something should be done to increase the quality of training? Oh yeah, and there was also that Colgan crash too.

As for people slipping through the cracks..... Once again that is the responsibility of the training department and the flight standards department to take care of training problems and weed out people that can't do the job right. A single failure is not necessarily a concern but multiple failures....6..is. Where was flight standards then?

 

[Oakum_Boy]

CRJ training is very easy, a monkey can pass it, the AP doesn't even go off if you have an engine failure.

The funny thing is, the folks who say that type of thing are generally the ones who never learned how to make a proper crosswind landing. A basic skill and certainly not as easy as a stall recovery. Maybe you really are worth $16,000 a year...

 

[WSurf]

Pinnacle Flight 3701 is another example of poor airmanship. Didn't these two guys allow this plane to drift from 410 to 10,000 before they even worried about finding an airport? By then it was way too late.


How about heading towards a airport, circling it while at that point starting to trouble shoot the problem. Hard to believe they were flying around for about 14 minutes before trying to find a place to land.

 

[s3jetman]

Too bad they weren't exceptional aviators, now they have seats next to Jeffery Dahmer, John Gacy, and Ted Bundy in infamy.
Sorry to burst your bubble, they weren't accidents, these tragedies happened because they were sub-standard aviators, by definition. Did you instruct any of them?
PBR

Yes i did train some of them in groundschool. Your post is a real big boy post you must be proud. I quess the two pilots with over 25,000 between them, that crased into a side of a mountain because they put the wrong ndb in the fms, are what you say "sub-standard aviatiors". I am sure thats the case

 

[PBRstreetgang]

CRJ training is very easy, a monkey can pass it, the AP doesn't even go off if you have an engine failure. The colgan guy had it more difficult and it showed by the multiple failures. But if you pass the retake, nothing they can do about it. People slip though the cracks all the time.

Kinda like you, are you really sure that the A/P does not "kick off" when an engine fails?
Toolbag
PBR

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Yes i did train some of them in groundschool. Your post is a real big boy post you must be proud. I quess the two pilots with over 25,000 between them, that crased into a side of a mountain because they put the wrong ndb in the fms, are what you say "sub-standard aviatiors". I am sure thats the case

Nice job, and yes by definition "crashing into the side of a mountain" qualifies as sub standard airmanship, but if that's ok for your students, well....I guess that says a lot about your standards.
And I thought you were out.....of what?
PBR
P.S. Did you teach that specific form of "stall recovery"?

 

[PBRstreetgang]

This dildo in the CNN video makes some of the dumbest comments ever that show this idiot knows nothing about the pilots involved in the accidents. CNN is stupid for not doing research to before running a idiot on national tv making comments like he did.

Idiot " These accidents happened because GIA has soft training of a pilots initial pilot foundation"

Flagship - Jesse Rhodes - Off the street captain at GIA came from, i believe, American Eagle via Embrey Riddle. So its either Riddle or AE weak training. He was at Pinchanickle for over 3 years, buy the way Pinchanickle High Altitude training is very poor at best.

Colgan - Marvin Renslow - Primary training at, unnamed flight school, did 250 hours at GIA on an airplane the has neither stall safty features installed on the Q. Primary training on the Q at colgan, 3000 plus hours and 6 check rides at Colgan


GTA - Mark Whiley - Pilot on the 172 mid air, had his family with him and yes probably wasn't flying the airplane 100 percent of his attention outside. But neither was the other plane a Mutli Engine with an experienced pilot who had his CFI. Partial fault for this accident was Pompano tower and FXE tower hand off. Cant blame this on any one individual


I personally knew all of the above mentioned pilots, all were exceptional men and I take nothing from them. God rest, bless, their souls for they have all lost their lives and hopefully have taught us all something new in our experiences.

I'm out, my numbers next!

Common denominator?

 

[HA25]

CRJ training is very easy, a monkey can pass it, the AP doesn't even go off if you have an engine failure. The colgan guy had it more difficult and it showed by the multiple failures. But if you pass the retake, nothing they can do about it. People slip though the cracks all the time.

That's the kind of attitude that is some airlines might take towards CRJ training, but not where I learned it. A good airman always holds himself to a higher standard anyway.

With auto-throttle/auto-thrust, both the MD11 and to a lesser extent the Airbus can handle engine failures with even more automation than the CRJ, which I trained on back in 1998 in Montreal at CAE and where I didn't find it all that easy to be quite honest. I had 2500 hours, 600 of which was in the E120, the bust rate at that time was 25% or more for CA's, and not just because they were weak pilots, but because they took time to make sure that all of us turboprop drivers UNDERSTOOD the difference in flying a jet, as well as work on the usual "monkey" skills like ILS, VOR, NDB, and V1 cuts.. A major fail item in CRJ training back then was the enroute work believe it or not.

Just because an airplane CAN do something for you, doesn't mean you don't learn to do it also, incase all that "Gee wiz" stuff breaks.. 2 engine out approaches for example were hand flown and with most of the hydraulic power out, took significant effort and anticipation to control heading, all the while maintaining ATP standards on an ILS.

 

[PCL_128]

I'm not talking about Gulfstream Airlines. I'm talking about Gulfstream Training Academy. This is the corelation between many fatalities and that flight school.

Everyone that completes training at Gulfstream Training Academy becomes an FO at the airline. And yet, no accidents. Kinda kills your theory.

Gulfstream isn't the problem, here. Pinnacle's corporate safety culture is the problem.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Everyone that completes training at Gulfstream Training Academy becomes an FO at the airline. And yet, no accidents. Kinda kills your theory.

Gulfstream isn't the problem, here. Pinnacle's corporate safety culture is the problem.

Golfwinkie pilots display the attitude that is the common denominator, you included. You think you can wash the stink of your past off by wearing the cloak of a rabid ALPAite, guess what, the stench still leaks through though.
PBR

 

[Oakum_Boy]

yeah but i've flown with gulfstream pilots. Not the worst of worst, but definitely had that air of entitlement. Just sat there and warmed the seat without pulling out a damned chart or trying to help. That was shocking.

 

[s3jetman]

Common denominator?

Common denominator is the airline crashes were caused by pilots that had left GIA and had training elsewhere. All had ZERO accidents while at GIA. Dont you get it yet

 

[Lord Wakefield]

From Manfred on the CNN site

Manfred May 29th, 2009 4:05 pm ET
At present, GIA has a program in which First Officers pay for their training in the Beech 1900 and fly for a block of 250 hrs as a line qualified First Officer. This program undermines the airline pilot profession in the view of many, particularly union members. To gain experience, pilots with low experience often pay over $32,000.00 to ride in the right seat of turboprops in duty positions normally occupied by a paid professional; albeit one that receives very little pay. This was also the case with captains early on with candidates paying $15,000 up front starting in 1992 with Avtar International doing the recruiting and advertising. However, these pilots received compensation following successful completion of Initial Operating Experience (IOE). The Captain’s Program was initially for the CE-402B/C but later expanded to the BE-1900 and SD3-60 until the latter were repossessed. So called “Pay to work” programs started with Avtar International selling 100 hours of multi-engine time in CE-402s for $8,750 with the assurance from the Miami Flight Standard District Office that this time was loggable. Avtar International was started by Vic Johnson of New Jersey and Bill Veiga, a former Cessna Aircraft test pilot. Initially, most intern pilots were sent to GIA’s chief competitor, Airways International as Gulfstream possessed only one aircraft: N200UV, a Cessna 402B. As Gulfstream continued to grow, they took the lion’s share of Avtar pilots and the price was restructured to $8900 for 150 hours of flight time. Soon, a turbo prop program was added: $15,000 for 100 hours on a BE-C99; later increased to 200 hours and then 300 hours. Simultaneously, Avtar offered a heavy turbo prop program with Airways on their SD3-330 for $16,000. This program ended with the demise of Airways International and was only briefly restored with Gulfstream’s own SD3-360s; a program that sold for $39,500 for 500 hours. The status of the CE402 F/Os was always the most ambiguous. Non-functioning autopilots made SICs a requirement but they were left behind (bumped) if passenger loads or weight & balance considerations dictated [1]. From their outstation locations they were expected to jumpseat home on GIA or other carriers, if necessary, because no return tickets were provided. For these reasons, and the fact that the company was founded and run by strike breakers from the very acrimonious Eastern Air Lines Strike of the late eighties, a few professional pilots refuse to fly on GIA as a passenger though they frequently jumpseat [2]. After complaints of jumpseating abuse by the interning First Officers from pilots at Major Carriers, Gulfstream, to its credit, made this a punishable activity for pilots not considered employed. Interning pilots were issued unique ID badges stamped in bold red “Jumpseat NA.” Equally controversial, was the practice of using foreign nationals on student or tourist visas (including citizens of the People’s Republic of China). These crewmembers were also recruited by Avtar Int’l which operated until 1997 when Gulfstream took over the practice with a sister company: The Gulfstream Training Academy. Post 9/11, many of these programs have been cleaned up and no international First Officers have been deported or detained by U.S. Customs since. Pilots who have interned with GIA have been hired by many other airlines, including all Major Airlines. Most have not brought any negatives to their new employers, although they have been among the crews of prominent crashes[3]. See also Pinnacle Airlines Flight 3701, Comair Flight 5191 and Colgan Air Flight 3407 . Gulfstream itself has never had a fatal accident.
In 2009 U.S. Congress investigators and the Federal Aviation Administration accused Gulfstream of falsifying flight time records, making crews fly longer hours than allowed by law [4], and providing below standard aircraft maintenance. Capt. Thomas L. Cooper forbade the photocopying of aircraft logbooks done by some pilots to corroborate the times they logged in their personal logbooks.
Historically, pilots were paid “segment hours.” So called, “segment hours” were based on ideal enroute times as opposed to block times and have been suspected of being part of an inducement for under reporting. Logging of true block hours (actual enroute times plus taxi time) could be detrimental to pilot pay. Whereas, most carriers pay pilots based on block time, since it is what FAA flight time limits are based on, GIA did not. An incentive existed to under report block time by keeping it as close to segment time as possible thereby permitting pilots to get paid for the most segment hours in a week, a month, and a year. Delays that increased block times not only reduced the crewmember’s utility to GIA but also limited his pay. This under reporting was most relevant to captains. First Officers were not remunerated until 1995 when a majority of the turboprop co-pilots on the virtual seniority list with U.S. Passports or Green Cards began to be paid $8 per segment hour. Foreign copilots, who were not compensated and merely wished to return to their home countries with as much multi engine turbine time in as few months as possible, had little incentive to abide by FAA flight time limits.
In July 1997, the airline’s entire fleet of Shorts 360-300s were repossessed by the leasing company due, in part, to maintenance irregularities that included the welding of hydraulic lines according to USA Today. Gulfstream faces a civil penalty of $1.3 million U.S. dollars according to USA Today. Gulfstream’s affiliated Gulstream Flight Academy the successor to Avtar went into scrutiny since Marvin Renslow, the pilot of Colgan Air Flight 3407, trained there.[3] This is ironic because despite its status as a mere stepping stone in the minds of most pilot employees, the company was able to keep whistle blowing in check through selective disclosure of training documents mandated by the Pilot Record Improvement Act of 1996 (PRIA). PRIA came about in reaction to the crash of an American Eagle Jetstream piloted by a captain with a history of difficulties at prior airlines. It has been criticized because much of the information is subjective and the pilot waives his right to sue his former and current employers when he seeks employment with other FAR part 121 operators. Furthermore, a prospective employer is merely required to request and receive the PRIA material prior to hiring a pilot. No consideration of the material is required and the law does not apply if the applicant’s former employer is the military or a foreign operator.

 

[glasspilot]

I just threw up a little bit in my mouth.

 

[freighthumper]

I think its easy to blame GIA out of a general dislike of the type of operation that it is. I too am a strong believer that PFT is BS. It can also be said that there is reason to believe that the attitude of a person that thinks shortcuts and buying your way into a job is acceptable, is indicative of a personality type that can be dangerous in the cockpit. HOWEVER as easy as it is to blame GIA, the real blame lies with the training the pilots receive(or do not receive) after. It also lies with the operators inability to recognize and appropriately deal with a pilot that shows poor airmanship and/or judgment. For years I have been doing the EXACT SAME checkride. This is a very poor tool to judge the airmanship and judgement of a pilot. We are also trained to pass this checkride. Although we are also trained in other important areas, the main focus is training to pass the checkride. This is most likely to prevent the embarrassment of a failure and also it prevents scheduling interruptions by remedial training and people that are washed out. It is almost impossible to argue the statement that a person that repeatedly fails a checkride that they have done numerous times in the past is a competant pilot. The real failure lies in the training(and testing) system that ensures pilots are competent and remain that way.

 

[s3jetman]

I think its easy to blame GIA out of a general dislike of the type of operation that it is. I too am a strong believer that PFT is BS. It can also be said that there is reason to believe that the attitude of a person that thinks shortcuts and buying your way into a job is acceptable, is indicative of a personality type that can be dangerous in the cockpit. HOWEVER as easy as it is to blame GIA, the real blame lies with the training the pilots receive(or do not receive) after. It also lies with the operators inability to recognize and appropriately deal with a pilot that shows poor airmanship and/or judgment. For years I have been doing the EXACT SAME checkride. This is a very poor tool to judge the airmanship and judgement of a pilot. We are also trained to pass this checkride. Although we are also trained in other important areas, the main focus is training to pass the checkride. This is most likely to prevent the embarrassment of a failure and also it prevents scheduling interruptions by remedial training and people that are washed out. It is almost impossible to argue the statement that a person that repeatedly fails a checkride that they have done numerous times in the past is a competant pilot. The real failure lies in the training(and testing) system that ensures pilots are competent and remain that way.

Totally agree your statements are accurate and warranted.