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GPAC Is Dead and Illegitimate?

UtahMonty

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Over the past months I and others have tried to obtain a list of NJI pilots who have signed up to be represented by GPAC. The organizers have refused to reply much less offer the names of the pilots who support the effort. There are a substantial group of NJI pilots who feel that the company management can represent all of us as work rules and scope are ironed out.

Basic work rules are established in the 2007 CBA and LOA 13. Can anyone give just three things which cannot be handled by the managers at Okatie? What is it which requires another group of pilots sitting at the table? A group of pilots who have no power!

Until there is a published list of pilots who have agreed to be represented, the GPAC effort is NULL AND VOID. If the latest press release is correct, more than 247 pilots have signed up. Well, until we see the names of these folks, we say the effort is dead and certainly not legitimate to represent all the Gulfstream drivers.

Is there any reason to keep the list of names private? Maybe I am missing something very important? But in the private emails amongst ourselves, why can't we all know who is in support of our action committee?

The secrecy screams out for truth. No one is comfortable with organizations that operate in the dark, especially when they advertise to "represent" you.

#2278
 

Buckeye

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Monty I am confused? Are trying to say something, make a statement or give your opinion? I can only assume you might one the management golden boys pushed forward by okatie to talk to NJASAP or "represent" the pilots. I think GPAC are pilots whom have concerns and want to know the facts of whats ahead and how it will affect them. They helping to make sure information is passed unobstructed or self interrepted. I would say Monty there is probably a fairly good reason that you are being denied access, the question is do you know why......I have a feeling they know why.
 

FL510GV

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I and many others, have flown with several co-NJI pilots in the past months and, collectively, we can come up with 16 pilots who are either on the "nominee list" or admit to joining the GPAC. Only one, has mentioned even more than passing interest. Is everyone "afraid" of admitting they joined, or have they really not joined?

We live in a world of instant information. When there is no information, the rumor mill (online/out-on-the-line) quickly fills that vacuum; some true, some mostly true and some not true at all. Who knows? We at NJI know that as well as anyone. The great weakness of the leadership at Okatie has been communication. I personally believe that the leadership in the swamp is a victim of circumstances/position and that Woodbridge is actually the information culprit. The swamp is looking out for our best interest…. PM me if you want some examples.

I actually think having reps "at the table" is a good idea; but, aren't the boys down south our reps? I just don't trust the (current) tactics, secrecy and the tone of the GPAC. It has to change. Look, all I am asking for is some transparency. Exactly how many pilots have joined? What are their names? Release it privately. If this information is not released, GPAC is dead on arrival, and as the first poster stated, illegitimate. If it is released, I'll back the elected reps.

#2070
 

BeeDubya

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... There are a substantial group of NJI pilots who feel that the company management can represent all of us as work rules and scope are ironed out.

Basic work rules are established in the 2007 CBA and LOA 13. Can anyone give just three things which cannot be handled by the managers at Okatie? What is it which requires another group of pilots sitting at the table? A group of pilots who have no power!

#2278,

What do you think has to be ironed out at some table? The Basic 2007 Agreement and LOA 01-013 are negotiated and ratified agreements, binding on both NetJets and NJASAP, and cover the integration. The work rules and scope are already defined by those documents.
 
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BeeDubya

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We live in a world of instant information. When there is no information, the rumor mill (online/out-on-the-line) quickly fills that vacuum; some true, some mostly true and some not true at all. Who knows?

#2070

2070,

Another great way to get accurate information is to update your contact information with NJASAP on their website so you can receive information directly from the Union.
 

BeeDubya

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Much like you did with the emails from Olsen and Brian Ward.

To be fair, I gave permission for my email to be shared with others, knowing full well that it would likely be "blasted."

Brian (#1790 -4th Q)
 
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FL510GV

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The GPAC has my email. I have sent emails asking questions and have received the standard line answer each time.

GPAC, just send me a number, forget the names; as of today, how many people have joined? Use the gpac gmail account. Do not send me "more and more every day", "everyone is really excited and you need to join", "membership is rapidly increasing", "well more than 50%,60%,75% of pilots"... that's all nonsense guys!

I think that NJI has about 330 "off the street guys" and about 35 "A-side guys" on the property. Not counting the A-guys, there needs to be 166 GPAC members for me to think there's any sort of weight to the claims that the GPAC is our rep at the table, like it or not.


____________________________________________
PS: Regarding "A guys", I've flown with at least 10 of them and I can't say enough good about each one I've flown with -- first class, the whole lot! Why isn't anyone asking them what they think? They've seen "both sides" and might have the best perspective of us all.

___________added
VSL(4q08)#2065
 
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BeeDubya

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Why isn't anyone asking them what they think? They've seen "both sides" and might have the best perspective of us all.

___________added
VSL(4q08)#2065

First, we have asked some of the NJA-to-NJI crossovers. We have talked to one who is going to help us "translate" A-to-I and I-to-A.

Second, as far as perspective, part of what we need input on is the viewpoints of pilots who are not currently represented who will later be represented by NJASAP. The NJA-to-NJI crossovers already have a bargaining agent.
 

CA1900

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Is there any reason to keep the list of names private? Maybe I am missing something very important? But in the private emails amongst ourselves, why can't we all know who is in support of our action committee?

Word of friendly advice: on a message board, or even a "private" mailing list of any significant size, you're going to run into moles who will go running to management with copies of your words. I don't recommend writing anything on a mailing list like that (or a union board, down the road) that you wouldn't say with management sitting in the room.
 

Diesel

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As a crossover and also one of the pilots running (not to hard to figure that out) I truely believe that the only way to get a clear idea of what is going on is to have worked for both companies and have seen the good and the bad of both companies. I think that we can incorporate the good of both companies while maintaining the QOL that long haul international flying requires and we have a history of.

I think straight talk from the pilots of NJI to the pilots of NJI will go a long way. Some may not like what they are going to hear but at least its not "spun" because they serve a different masters. Thats not a bad thing just a fact.

I do agree that if you're going to stand up you better stand up all the way and put your name on the line if you believe in it and making a difference or at least giving a group a voice.
 

UtahMonty

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Reply:

BW: Thanks for the acknowledgement. And yes I encourage everyone to sign up on the NJASAP site so we can all get good information. I and others do not think there are many things to be ‘ironed’ out. So ,bottom line is some of us feel that Okatie managers can work with you to figure out details. Thus comes the concept that GPAC is not needed and only creates another un-needed layer. It is nice that NJASAP offered to talk to them…but in reality what else could have been done?

GF: I have sent to you via PM my phone number so we can talk. Please call as I need you to explain how I am irrational and don’t understand what is going on and what it is I need to keep low for. Seriously, be a man (or woman) and stop hiding behind screen names and call. We can talk civilly. Over the last few months I have sent emails to as many gulfstream drivers as I know. Everyone who reads this thread now knows my name and what I stand for. Since you write so caustically and are so passionate, tell us who you are and what you represent. Each and every one of my notes are 100% accurate. All words of Bill Olsen and Brian Ward are 100% accurate and releasable. If you want to attack words or concepts in those notes, then do so and please be specific. But attacking the messenger is pathetic if you can’t articulate what it is that bothered you. Your words of my “attack” on a fellow pilot are short sighted. Here is the history since obviously you have not heard the entire story. GPAC put out a ‘press release’ and called me and Bill Olsen liars, so yes I responded to as many people as I could reach. Anyone would have done the same. If those e-mails hurt someone’s feelings, I apologize but they were 100% accurate.

I am not a renegade on the question of GPAC legitimacy. Many others are asking the same thing, but I am just the first to say it out loud. There are ~330 NJI street hire pilots. All we are asking for is the EXACT number of sign ups with some proof. We more or less live in a democracy, and so if ~165 have signed up then so shall it be and I wish GPAC all the best.

One last thought: Hiding behind the ‘secrecy’ of the on-going 'labor relation' discussion is disingenuous. We are a very small work force and all of the big questions are already spelled out. Okatie and Woodbridge are well aware we are very uneasy about being adopted into a union which we did not get a vote and it is common sense we are concerned. Our talks and discussions should not be in secret. Management at Okatie (and Columbus) have built the greatest corporate operation any of us could wish for. Those managers are also line pilots and I trust them to make fair decisions.

My pledge: As soon as someone proves of all the sign ups, I will contribute $250 to the GPAC operating fund. It ain’t going to be cheap to send four representatives to meetings.
 

BeeDubya

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Reply:

BW: It is nice that NJASAP offered to talk to them…but in reality what else could have been done?

Quite frankly, we could have chosen not to talk to anyone at NJI. We do not represent NJI pilots yet and therefore have no DFR of NJI pilots. That said, we want a smooth transition and we want a unified pilot group at the end of the process. We know that the only way to do that is to be involved with NJI pilots earlier rather than later. It seemed (and frnakly still does) that GPAC's motives are consistent with ours and because they want to use a democratic process of electing members, they would have more weight in and be more representative of "speaking for the NJI pilots" than if we simply chose random individuals. Also, because of their contacts, they became a mechanism for the Union to communciate with NJI pilots. (I still encourage NJI pilots to register with the Union on the website.)

All words of Bill Olsen and Brian Ward are 100% accurate and releasable. If you want to attack words or concepts in those notes, then do so and please be specific.

I will stand behind what I wrote. I did not verify (nor did I see beforehand) any of your notes attached to my comments.

Here is the history since obviously you have not heard the entire story. GPAC put out a ‘press release’ and called me and Bill Olsen liars, so yes I responded to as many people as I could reach.

Without defending or commenting on GPAC, I saw their "press release" (as you call it) which commented on your email. I did not read it as calling you a liar. Rather, I read it as stating that the GPAC organizers could not verify the information or source. I do not view that statement as calling you a liar. In much the same way, while I believe that UtahMonty is Dave Montgomery I cannot verify it, I have to take your word on it.

One last thought: Hiding behind the ‘secrecy’ of the on-going 'labor relation' discussion is disingenuous. ... Okatie and Woodbridge are well aware we are very uneasy about being adopted into a union which we did not get a vote and it is common sense we are concerned. Our talks and discussions should not be in secret. ...

NJASAP does not operate in secret. There are discussions between the Integration Team and GPAC. We also understand that many NJI pilots are uneasy about the upcoming process, which is why we have devoted a team to addressing this. We have endeavoured to distribute information and created a mechanism to ask questions and get correct asnwers. As this process moves forward, we will continue in these efforts, with more in planning stages already.

Comments above in red.
 

Cavpilot

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Over the past months I and others have tried to obtain a list of NJI pilots who have signed up to be represented by GPAC. The organizers have refused to reply much less offer the names of the pilots who support the effort. There are a substantial group of NJI pilots who feel that the company management can represent all of us as work rules and scope are ironed out.

Basic work rules are established in the 2007 CBA and LOA 13. Can anyone give just three things which cannot be handled by the managers at Okatie? What is it which requires another group of pilots sitting at the table? A group of pilots who have no power!

Until there is a published list of pilots who have agreed to be represented, the GPAC effort is NULL AND VOID. If the latest press release is correct, more than 247 pilots have signed up. Well, until we see the names of these folks, we say the effort is dead and certainly not legitimate to represent all the Gulfstream drivers.

Is there any reason to keep the list of names private? Maybe I am missing something very important? But in the private emails amongst ourselves, why can't we all know who is in support of our action committee?

The secrecy screams out for truth. No one is comfortable with organizations that operate in the dark, especially when they advertise to "represent" you.

#2278

...FUD
 

Gruman Fan

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My last and final comments.

I sent an email to the organizers and asked them to please release the number of NJI pilots who have registered with GPAC, hopefully they will. I also informed them if they release my name as a GPAC supporter to anyone other than NJASAP, I’d sue them, :laugh:. I also told them to expect a check from DM for $250.00.


NJASAP will speak for me once the integration is complete. Until that time, I want a group of NJI line pilots inside this little circle of meetings, LOA's, integrations, etc. etc. For nothing else to serve as a watchdog. Its not that I don’t trust Bill Noe, but there are things that must be done that he has no authority or influence to achieve. The mere issue of local representation of NJI pilots through NJASAP stewards on our Operating Certificate should be enough for any NJI pilot to support GPAC. Does anyone honestly believe that Okatie Management is going to sit down with NJASAP and determine who amongst our group should be a union steward? Come on get real. I was told that the NJASAP bylaws don’t even give NJI pilots the right to run for office or hold and positions until they have been in the union for 2 years. Do you think Okatie is going to have that changed? No way! How is Okatie Management going to determine or pick who among us is best suited to work on the union safety committee, the pro standards committee, etc? These are internal, union matters that need to be addressed from within the ranks of the pilot groups. We, the line pilots through GPAC can address some of these issues and work with NJASAP to make the integration a smooth process in which we had a voice.

The time has clearly come to recognize that senior NetJets management feels it is in the best long-term interest of the company for NJA/NJI pilots to be integrated into a single list and a collective bargaining agreement. That goes 180 degrees from what every NJI pilot was ever told. (“Mr. Santulli would never sell us out, we make too much money for the company”… “So and so told me that our lawyers already have this thing taken care of”… “I was just in recurrent and the D.O. came in and told me we have nothing to worry about, the union is NOT coming to NJI”… “NJA pilots will never fly the Gulfstreams”)… Any of those comments sound familiar?

The last time I check, pilots bargain on behalf of pilots, and management bargains on behalf of the Corporate Board. The sooner we find a way to board the U.S.S. NJASAP, the quicker we can all sail off into the sunset!

PS. Utah Mouthy… I wont be calling you because you have lost all credibility with me and I never even met you. I noticed you have been a member of flightinfo for two years now, and only 2 posts. That spells “Company Mole” or “Lurker” in Internet sign language.
 

G200_PILOT

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The last time I check, pilots bargain on behalf of pilots, and management bargains on behalf of the Corporate Board. The sooner we find a way to board the U.S.S. NJASAP, the quicker we can all sail off into the sunset!

Gruman, that's what I've been asking for quite a while now. What "bargaining" power do you guys have? OK, you say you want to sit in on the round table meetings. What authority do you have to stand up and tell the rest of the group (management and NJASAP) that you don't agree with certain things and that you want them changed? I still don't get the whole GPAC concept. At the end of the day, you're going to be subject matter experts in how pilots handle things on the road on a day-to-day basis. You're going to be there to answer questions but that's not the way you've come across to a lot of pilot on the road. I just ran into one of your guys that's been at NJI for a long time. He seemed like a great guy and he told us that there were many, just like him, that are still confused of GPAC's role.
 

Diesel

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At the end of the day, you're going to be subject matter experts in how pilots handle things on the road on a day-to-day basis. You're going to be there to answer questions but that's not the way you've come across to a lot of pilot on the road. I just ran into one of your guys that's been at NJI for a long time. He seemed like a great guy and he told us that there were many, just like him, that are still confused of GPAC's role.

I'll have to make this quick my flight is boarding soon but maybe I can shed some light.

GPAC will be in an advisory roll to help along NJASAP in understanding the needs and the wants of the NJI pilots. Who better to help NJASAP understand what is more important for the the NJI pilots than those that are actually on the line. Especially those that have worked for both sides of the fence. There are a lot of things I didn't understand till I came here.

My view on this is simple. We should do everything we can to make sure the line pilots have a voice. Is that a bad thing? Nope. Pretty much everything is set in stone but there are small QOL details that can affect this pilot group for a long time coming.

NJASAP have accepted GPAC with open arms because they know that they need the information that it can provide when it comes down to put everything in motion.

People keep thinking there is something sinister going on. I truely don't believe that is the case but I can see how people think that because only a few people have put their names to some communications. This will/has to change so that we as pilots are all on the same page.

Here is my simple view. If it can't hurt and it means another set of eyes watching the process what is the big deal?
 

flyjetspeed

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Just sent a message to GPAC informing them of my intention to NOT vote!


I have only flown with a handful of these guys and cannot claim to know any of them well, with a few exceptions and those are the guys that I inadvertently nominated.

Early on I sent in 4 names that I stated I would trust to speak for me. Now they are on the so called list! I have attempted to correct that error and hope the names are removed if I was the only one doing the nominating. If not I am going to call each of them and apologize for the mistake.

Unless GPAC comes clean and each nominee is identified as willing to serve AND introduces himself AND expresses WHY he should be elected I have NO interest in legitimizing the effort! I hope this all happens because I DO support the idea of having someone to speak for the line pilots as the few small details are ironed out prior to the final integration.
 

FL510GV

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Wow, this discussion has taken an interesting turn. I thought it was about adding some transparency to the process and/or how many NJI pilots have joined the GPAC effort?

GrummanFan:
1. Did you get the number of pilots that have joined GPAC from the GPAC?
2. I am disappointed in your assessment of UtahMonty. He offered to talk you, privately on the phone, and you threw dirty in his face? You admitted you don't even know him, why not call him? I read his offer as a peace offering.
 

G200_PILOT

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I'll have to make this quick my flight is boarding soon but maybe I can shed some light.

GPAC will be in an advisory roll to help along NJASAP in understanding the needs and the wants of the NJI pilots. Who better to help NJASAP understand what is more important for the the NJI pilots than those that are actually on the line. Especially those that have worked for both sides of the fence. There are a lot of things I didn't understand till I came here.

My view on this is simple. We should do everything we can to make sure the line pilots have a voice. Is that a bad thing? Nope. Pretty much everything is set in stone but there are small QOL details that can affect this pilot group for a long time coming.

NJASAP have accepted GPAC with open arms because they know that they need the information that it can provide when it comes down to put everything in motion.

People keep thinking there is something sinister going on. I truely don't believe that is the case but I can see how people think that because only a few people have put their names to some communications. This will/has to change so that we as pilots are all on the same page.

Here is my simple view. If it can't hurt and it means another set of eyes watching the process what is the big deal?

G, I can understand why we need something like GPAC around to assist in the transition but with all the "elections" and "voting?" Elections for what? A guy like you would be perfect for what GPAC's role should be.

Look, the way I see it is that for years, certain things have remained a mystery as to how things are done at NJI. Not on purpose, just because it didn't matter. Now that both sides are coming together, those mysteries need to be figured out. A guy like yourself that's been on both sides of the fence would be a great guy for the job. You know how it's done here as well as over there.

Can I vote for you??????:0
 

Hogprint

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Gruman Fan Posted:

I was told that the NJASAP bylaws don’t even give NJI pilots the right to run for office or hold and positions until they have been in the union for 2 years.

GF, I don't think this is true. In fact I'm certain it's hearsay. That popped up on this forum and another as a proposed guideline, but that isn't in writing. I did go through the bylaws and can't find it.

I encourage everyone not to spread disinformation during this integration. Good luck and see you on the line.
 
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