GPAC Is Dead and Illegitimate?

[Diesel]

HAHA i appreciate the vote of confidence but I truely don't believe I will win. Those that aren't interested in making sure their voice is heard don't cruise messageboards and believe the world will be alright if they don't stir the pot.

I believe discussion is good ideas flow and minds sometimes get changed. If not your opinion is at least out there.

I go back to my original point, "what does it hurt". There are so many things that I would have never understood unless I worked for both companies and that I believe that without that ability to see both sides of the fence a lot of misconceptions out there are brought on by lack of information.

Will GPAC do any good? I have no idea. I would be able to at least give the pilots the straight scoop. If that matches managments same information then hey you get double the information for half the price.

 

[UtahMonty]

For Gruman Fan
(quotations are your comments)

“I also informed them if they release my name as a GPAC supporter to anyone other than NJASAP, I’d sue them” So, you are going to sue an organization with no organization, no staff, no money. That will be fun to watch. Lawyers are going to line up at your door to get in on that action! But when you say it we know you are really a serious person. Throwing some scare factor into discussions always makes it seem important.

Thanks for finally saying something in public about what it is that the gpac supporters are angry about. We can all throw stones about Okatie’s misstatements over the years. Do you believe they were made with bad intention? Or were they made as a result of the best information they had at the time? We all should have seen the inevitable after the 2005 CBA and the influx of union pilots to the I side…but we didn’t. Bad on all of us. We all wonder why so many Okatie managers stood in front of the room so many times saying things which turned out to be wrong. It happens. Life can sometimes deliver lemons. Either we make lemonade and move on, or put the juice in your eye each morning so you have something to cry about. There are many of us who trust the folks who made this company great to continue making great decisions. Their past mistakes were not fatal for anyone. They are just aggravating. Until you have worked in a busy headquarters for a few years, you have no idea what it is like and what the mountains of problems are.

“Its not that I don’t trust Bill Noe, but there are things that must be done that he has no authority or influence to achieve.” This statement is so far out of your purview it is embarrassing to even address it. Since you have worked here a huge 16 months we are sure you have the complete and total knowledge of how everything works in Okatie and you have complete insight on how to integrate work groups

“The mere issue of local representation of NJI pilots through NJASAP stewards on our Operating Certificate should be enough for any NJI pilot to support GPAC. Does anyone honestly believe that Okatie Management is going to sit down with NJASAP and determine who amongst our group should be a union steward? Come on get real. I was told that the NJASAP bylaws don’t even give NJI pilots the right to run for office or hold and positions until they have been in the union for 2 years. Do you think Okatie is going to have that changed? No way! How is Okatie Management going to determine or pick who among us is best suited to work on the union safety committee, the pro standards committee, etc?” Damm good questions. But you know what, we are all smart guys and gals and can figure it out. If your hearsay words are correct it sounds like the bylaws may already answer some of the dilemma. If the laws say two years…well we wait two years. No use crying about something we have no influence over. We will figure it out.

“PS. Utah Mouthy… I wont be calling you because you have lost all credibility with me and I never even met you. I noticed you have been a member of flightinfo for two years now, and only 2 posts. That spells “Company Mole” or “Lurker” in Internet sign language.” Do you really need to call names…and you won’t take a phone call? This is a real shame. We all have life experiences to share. Information is good. More information is real good. Find an open mind to folks who disagree with you and you will be a better person. We don’t have to agree, and probably won’t. But name calling is a last resort for someone who won’t hold an intelligent discussion. Since you took time to write it down, why is the number of posts important? I see you have 33 posts. Does that make your words better than anyone else? And by the way, flightinfo will be contacting you ref breaking their rules and releasing a name. It is a problem.

Phone calls and notes to me this week are all from people who are worried about a group of pilots claiming they represent all of us. The worry is the reps will be too radical and will ultimately inject poisonous debate into the effort and hurt much more than they help. There are scenarios which you have not dreamed of which could be bad for the I side guys. If your words are indicators of the GPAC feeling, those concerns may be valid.

Diesel asked the question, “If it can’t hurt and it means another set of eyes watching the process what is the big deal.” The hurt can be caused by some with the wrong agenda. Retaliation is not a good driving force.

 

[BeeDubya]

Gruman Fan Posted:



GF, I don't think this is true. In fact I'm certain it's hearsay. That popped up on this forum and another as a proposed guideline, but that isn't in writing. I did go through the bylaws and can't find it.

The current NJASAP bylaws require candidates for the Executive Board to be continuous Active or Associate members for 24 months (see Article IV, Section 6(b)). The only requirement for participation in committees or for membership on the Steward's Council is approval by the Executive Board.

 

[Diesel]

Diesel asked the question, “If it can’t hurt and it means another set of eyes watching the process what is the big deal.” The hurt can be caused by some with the wrong agenda. Retaliation is not a good driving force.

Now I'm confused... where do you get this stuff. What wrong agenda you've already said that GPAC will have no power but now there is power to create an agenda and take down the company? Which is it?

GPAC is serving as an advisory role with NJASAP. The election is to make sure that the pilots best choose those that they feel can help NJASAP the best. You know in the democratic fashion? So everybody gets a voice.

 

[jenex]

GPACs influence will be very limited. They have no funding and no recognizable structure. This integration( AKA assimilation) will be managed by NJASAP. They have funding and orginization. There Union has absolutely no responsibility regarding NJI pilots at this time, whether there is GPAC or not. NJI pilots will be subject to what management and the union and have already agreed on. The LOA carries weight and not much else!

 

[Hogprint]

The current NJASAP bylaws require candidates for the Executive Board to be continuous Active or Associate members for 24 months (see Article IV, Section 6(b)). The only requirement for participation in committees or for membership on the Steward's Council is approval by the Executive Board.

Good catch BeeDub. I must have skipped over it, damn download!

I retract my post to Gruman Fan.

 

[BeeDubya]

Good catch BeeDub. I must have skipped over it, damn download!

I retract my post to Gruman Fan.

No worries... That's why I watch these boards.

 

[BeeDubya]

GPACs influence will be very limited. They have no funding and no recognizable structure. This integration( AKA assimilation) will be managed by NJASAP. They have funding and organization. There Union has absolutely no responsibility regarding NJI pilots at this time, whether there is GPAC or not. NJI pilots will be subject to what management and the union and have already agreed on. The LOA carries weight and not much else!

NJASAP endeavors a smooth integration with NJI. While it is true that we are not currently the bargaining agent for NJI pilots (and therefore have no Duty of Fair Representation, yet), it is not in anyone's best interest to ignore the NJI pilots throughout this process. In essence, there are two contemporaneous processes: integration under the CBA and integration within the Union. For integration under the CBA, the agreement (including side letters) will control, and what is left is implementation. For integration within the Union, while NJASAP will control, the input and participation of NJI pilots will be immensely valuable. In both cases, involvement of NJI pilots will be important, as the success of our Union has been because of the active involvement of the membership. We look forward to NJI pilots involvement.

 

[jenex]

NJASAP endeavors a smooth integration with NJI. While it is true that we are not currently the bargaining agent for NJI pilots (and therefore have no Duty of Fair Representation, yet), it is not in anyone's best interest to ignore the NJI pilots throughout this process. In essence, there are two contemporaneous processes: integration under the CBA and integration within the Union. For integration under the CBA, the agreement (including side letters) will control, and what is left is implementation. For integration within the Union, while NJASAP will control, the input and participation of NJI pilots will be immensely valuable. In both cases, involvement of NJI pilots will be important, as the success of our Union has been because of the active involvement of the membership. We look forward to NJI pilots involvement.

NJASAP’s relationship with GPAC does not change the Union’s representational duties: NJASAP is the bargaining agent for and represents the professional interests of the NJA pilots, and NJASAP does not represent NJI pilots and will not become their certified bargaining agent until the Final Integration Notice is remitted. Therefore NJASAP is no friend to NJI pilots until that time. There is no other way to see it, BW.

 

[Diesel]

Therefore NJASAP is no friend to NJI pilots until that time. There is no other way to see it, BW.

I'm sorry but you are wrong. NJASAP understands the benefits of working with GPAC to ensure that they are getting the true voice of the pilots from the beginning. They can see the big picture and understand that the support from NJI guys during the integration is far more beneficial than saying "we can do it better than you."

 

[jenex]

Diesel, I believe you are a NJA guy. The picture changes if your not represented by NJASAP.
Trust me. The union does not represent my interests until I pay dues. Sure I will be come a member in two years. Until then they have a duty only to there members like you

 

[old*art]

G Envy

I am so glad I have none, have international flying behind me, have flown truly heavy iron to which category G's do not apply (by a factor or ten), and am perfectly happy in my little airplane with NJA pay !! No dog in this fight.

 

[BeeDubya]

NJASAP’s relationship with GPAC does not change the Union’s representational duties: NJASAP is the bargaining agent for and represents the professional interests of the NJA pilots, and NJASAP does not represent NJI pilots and will not become their certified bargaining agent until the Final Integration Notice is remitted. Therefore NJASAP is no friend to NJI pilots until that time. There is no other way to see it, BW.

Technically, we will be the "bargaining agent" but not the "certified bargaining agent." However, you are correct, we do not represent NJI pilots until remission of the "final integration notice." It is not the relationship with GPAC that defines the Union's positions with regard to NJI pilots. Rather, if GPAC did not exist, we would still be looking for NJI pilots to work with us to assist in the smooth integration. By working with GPAC, we will have a better idea if the positions brought forth actually represent the group as a whole, or just the opinions of individuals. At the end of the process, NJI pilots will be represented by NJASAP and it is in our best interest to act according to that reality. We could wait until the "final integration notice" to do anything, or we can be proactive. Acting without regard for the NJI pilots in the interim is bad strategy.

 

[FL510GV]

Two things...

Jenex - Diesel is a NJA->NJI guy. So he has some (a little) perspective on the whole thing. He's represented by the Union, but he see's the NJI side of things too...

BW - The complaint is not that GPAC wants to represent us, rather that we can't find anyone we're flying with that wants GPAC to represent us. Why won't GPAC come clean and at least send out the number of pilots who have signed up for GPAC to the email addresses they have? This has nothing to do with union vs. non-union, this has already been decided, but rather it's about who should represent the NJI pilots. If GPAC has very few who've signed up (less than 50%), irregardless of their "mission statement" or "goals" they are not a legitimate rep for us.

 

[BeeDubya]

BW - The complaint is not that GPAC wants to represent us, rather that we can't find anyone we're flying with that wants GPAC to represent us. Why won't GPAC come clean and at least send out the number of pilots who have signed up for GPAC to the email addresses they have? This has nothing to do with union vs. non-union, this has already been decided, but rather it's about who should represent the NJI pilots. If GPAC has very few who've signed up (less than 50%), irregardless of their "mission statement" or "goals" they are not a legitimate rep for us.

I will not address whether or not GPAC should or should not release names or numbers. That's an internal GPAC issue. They have told us (the Union) that they plan to allow us to view their registrations and election materials. That will help us understand their legitimacy.

Even if they have less than 50% registrants, is there another group at NJI that can claim even that? I would prefer to deal with a group that can demonstrate they speak for 30% than an individual who only speaks for himself/herself when trying to discern the dispostion of a group. Do you have any suggestions? Clearly, the level of participation will determine the weight given GPAC's message.

As you point out, the integration moves forward. We (NJASAP) want to work with the NJI pilot group during this process. What becomes our mechanism if we should not listen to GPAC? (These questions are not retorical, or meant to be biased. They are serious.... please tell me how you propose we proceed if not via GPAC -- PM is fine if you prefer.)

 

[flyjetspeed]

I will not address whether or not GPAC should or should not release names or numbers. That's an internal GPAC issue. They have told us (the Union) that they plan to allow us to view their registrations and election materials. That will help us understand their legitimacy.

Even if they have less than 50% registrants, is there another group at NJI that can claim even that? I would prefer to deal with a group that can demonstrate they speak for 30% than an individual who only speaks for himself/herself when trying to discern the dispostion of a group. Do you have any suggestions? Clearly, the level of participation will determine the weight given GPAC's message.

As you point out, the integration moves forward. We (NJASAP) want to work with the NJI pilot group during this process. What becomes our mechanism if we should not listen to GPAC? (These questions are not retorical, or meant to be biased. They are serious.... please tell me how you propose we proceed if not via GPAC -- PM is fine if you prefer.)

OK I’ll take that one on.
We already have a system in place to “feel the pulse” of the NJI pilot group. The Group Leaders have been taking the complaints, concerns, fears, opinions, suggestions, comments and questions to management for as long as I’ve been here! Now before anyone flames in with their opinion of the Group Leader program, hear me out. These guys get input from us every day; Why not enhance the Group Leader Program by handing over our personal Email addresses to them and whenever a question comes up in the room with Bill O. and Billy N. they can simply ask the Group Leaders what they think? If that is insufficient the group leaders can poll the flight crews! A true democracy! If it’s the information flow that is important and the participation of us all in the process my suggestion makes GPAC unnecessary. OK all, take your best shots, the clay pigeon is in the air.

 

[BeeDubya]

OK I’ll take that one on.
We already have a system in place to “feel the pulse” of the NJI pilot group. The Group Leaders have been taking the complaints, concerns, fears, opinions, suggestions, comments and questions to management for as long as I’ve been here! Now before anyone flames in with their opinion of the Group Leader program, hear me out. These guys get input from us every day; Why not enhance the Group Leader Program by handing over our personal Email addresses to them and whenever a question comes up in the room with Bill O. and Billy N. they can simply ask the Group Leaders what they think? If that is insufficient the group leaders can poll the flight crews! A true democracy! If it’s the information flow that is important and the participation of us all in the process my suggestion makes GPAC unnecessary. OK all, take your best shots, the clay pigeon is in the air.

Were the Group Leaders elected by the pilots or appointed by management? What would prevent GPAC from polling the pilots if an issue arises? Are the Group Leaders Union supporters? Have the Group Leaders informed themselves about the CBA, LOA or Union bylaws?

If Bill O. or Bill N. have questions, they can ask whom they please. The Union's interest in forging a relationship with GPAC has nothing to do with management or their questions, but rather to inform Union positions on the issues and develop the Union within NJI (as the time comes).

 

[flyjetspeed]

Were the Group Leaders elected by the pilots or appointed by management?

Appointed by management from interested applicants. Why should that matter? You asked for a mechanism in lieu of GPAC. I gave you one!

What would prevent GPAC from polling the pilots if an issue arises?

Nothing, Here’s an idea! Why not let GPAC do a poll simultaneously with the Group Leaders and BOTH results are provided to Management AND the Union?

Are the Group Leaders Union supporters?

Some are, some are not. Is that a prerequisite? Not all of the GPAC organizers and the candidates listed so far are Union supporters, just resigned to the decision to integrate. Do not forget that most of us came to NJI instead of NJA because there was no union at NJI, at least in part.

Have the Group Leaders informed themselves about the CBA, LOA or Union bylaws?

No more or less than GPAC has. All of us have been getting educated, more or less, on these subjects since the announcement was made! Speaking for myself only, I have read the LOA carefully, the entire 2005 CBA, and the entire 2007 IBB. I have not been privy to the Bylaws, but rest assured I will read them too when I am.


If Bill O. or Bill N. have questions, they can ask whom they please. The Union's interest in forging a relationship with GPAC has nothing to do with management or their questions, but rather to inform Union positions on the issues and develop the Union within NJI (as the time comes).

Understood! Is it your point that the Union cannot converse with the NJI pilot group in any other way? I suspect that the GPAC effort may be floundering and may very well fail to reach 50% plus one. What then? It may be that the only legitimate method will be for NJASAP to communicate with the NJI pilots directly! What would be the harm in that? I have decided NOT to vote this week because I do not think that GPAC has adequately presented the candidates for the election. As it stands today my vote would be no more than a random choice.

 

[BeeDubya]

Appointed by management from interested applicants. Why should that matter? You asked for a mechanism in lieu of GPAC. I gave you one!

The question wasn't meant to be hostile. What the Union is looking for is people to express the will and concerns of the NJI pilots, particularly as they might differ from the interests of NJI management. Pilots selected by management (and paid an additional stipend from the company) may be inclined to represent the company's interests when they conflict with the pilots'.

Nothing, Here’s an idea! Why not let GPAC do a poll simultaneously with the Group Leaders and BOTH results are provided to Management AND the Union?

We do not control GPAC. Neither do we control the Group Leaders. We do expect those we work with in the interest of the NJI pilots to work via proper protocols.

Some are, some are not. Is that a prerequisite? Not all of the GPAC organizers and the candidates listed so far are Union supporters, just resigned to the decision to integrate. Do not forget that most of us came to NJI instead of NJA because there was no union at NJI, at least in part.

The Union is looking to facilitate a smooth transition to working under the negotiated agreement and to becoming Union members. Surly you can understand why we might have some hesitation working directly with folks who may intend to undermine the very efforts we are trying to work together on.

No more or less than GPAC has. All of us have been getting educated, more or less, on these subjects since the announcement was made! Speaking for myself only, I have read the LOA carefully, the entire 2005 CBA, and the entire 2007 IBB. I have not been privy to the Bylaws, but rest assured I will read them too when I am.

The Bylaws are available on the NJASAP website.

Understood! Is it your point that the Union cannot converse with the NJI pilot group in any other way? I suspect that the GPAC effort may be floundering and may very well fail to reach 50% plus one. What then? It may be that the only legitimate method will be for NJASAP to communicate with the NJI pilots directly! What would be the harm in that? I have decided NOT to vote this week because I do not think that GPAC has adequately presented the candidates for the election. As it stands today my vote would be no more than a random choice.

From the beginning, NJASAP has stated that we have wanted to speak with NJI pilots directly. If GPAC can faciliate that (by providing a singular voice and distributing messages from the Union) then that's great. We never said that GPAC would be the ONLY conduit of information. The advantage of GPAC is that they would speak for a defined group -- either a majority or plurality of NJI pilots. Communicating one-on-one is valuable, but more difficult to determine what is a "majority viewpoint" and what is a squeekly wheel.

 

[flyjetspeed]

The question wasn't meant to be hostile. What the Union is looking for is people to express the will and concerns of the NJI pilots, particularly as they might differ from the interests of NJI management. Pilots selected by management (and paid an additional stipend from the company) may be inclined to represent the company's interests when they conflict with the pilots'.

No hostility taken! That’s the problem with message boards, what may seem innocent by the writer may be taken, entirely, another way by the reader! What the union wants seems to be what we all want! We wish to be included in the process! If GPAC can produce a representative body to speak on our behalf, I’m all for it! The Group Leader Program has done a fairly good job bringing our concerns to the attention of management without bias towards management in the past however I see your point so far as appointment and compensation!


We do not control GPAC. Neither do we control the Group Leaders. We do expect those we work with in the interest of the NJI pilots to work via proper protocols.

I agree! Proper protocol would be to withdraw from the process in the absence of a simple majority after the election!


The Union is looking to facilitate a smooth transition to working under the negotiated agreement and to becoming Union members. Surly you can understand why we might have some hesitation working directly with folks who may intend to undermine the very efforts we are trying to work together on.

I understand your hesitation completely, I do not think anyone is interested, at this stage, in undermining your efforts. We also want to avoid acrimony and hope for a smooth transition! And don’t call me Shirley. (sorry, couldn’t resist)



From the beginning, NJASAP has stated that we have wanted to speak with NJI pilots directly. If GPAC can faciliate that (by providing a singular voice and distributing messages from the Union) then that's great. We never said that GPAC would be the ONLY conduit of information. The advantage of GPAC is that they would speak for a defined group -- either a majority or plurality of NJI pilots. Communicating one-on-one is valuable, but more difficult to determine what is a "majority viewpoint" and what is a squeekly wheel.

Yessir, the very point of a representative republic. My central issue with GPAC is that they have not put forward a slate of candidates, so far, that I can look at and say “they will speak for us” therefore I intend to boycott this election. You sound like a thoughtful person with good intent and I thank you for the civil exchange.