GPAC Is Dead and Illegitimate?

[Diesel]

Yessir, the very point of a representative republic. My central issue with GPAC is that they have not put forward a slate of candidates, so far, that I can look at and say “they will speak for us” therefore I intend to boycott this election. You sound like a thoughtful person with good intent and I thank you for the civil exchange.

Jetspeed a question to you is did you nominate someone that you thought would "best speak for you"? I don't mean it harsh just a question. If you didn't then you only have yourself to blame as to why the slate is so thin. (by your standards)

What you will see soon is the candidates will be presenting a short bio... Take a look see what you like what you don't. My contact info will be on it.

You might not like what I have to say but you'll get my view, and the view of what the NJI pilots are telling me as I do my job on the road.

 

[flyjetspeed]

Jetspeed a question to you is did you nominate someone that you thought would "best speak for you"?


I did, although at the time I did not realize it. I named 4 friends that I would trust to speak for me. Little did I know that they would appear on "the list". I have attempted to rectify that misunderstanding and hope it has been corrected. Only one name remains of that 4. Hint....He is an expert on BBQ! You on the other hand I have not met! Only here on FI have I been able to read your postings. I do know your name and look forward to reading your email from GPAC. So far the silence is deafening. Best of luck in your efforts. I have flown with most of the other pilots from the A side and have found them quite professional and interesting to be on the road with. Looking forward to flying with you as well! Best Regards, FJS

 

[BeeDubya]

We do expect those we work with in the interest of the NJI pilots to work via proper protocols.

I agree! Proper protocol would be to withdraw from the process in the absence of a simple majority after the election!

And don’t call me Shirley. (sorry, couldn’t resist)

First, I love the joke! Great movie, great line! :laugh:

Second, to my view, if less than a simple majority of NJI pilots vote, I do not think it necessiates GPAC's withdraw, but it will indicate the amount of weight we can give their opinions (clearly, we would give their opinions more weight if more vote). Right now, there is no other elected bodies, and any other voices speak for themselves alone. Whoever we (the Union) end up working with, we will make their names public so that NJI pilots will know where to voice their concerns. As always, NJI pilots are welcomed and encouraged to talk to the Union directly, via the contact information provided on the website.

The participation of GPAC was never intended to be controversial. When they contacted the Union leadership, we had few contacts within the NJI ranks (spare the NJA-to-NJI transfers). As this process moves forward, we want the NJI pilots involved. For some issues, the outcome is already determined, for others, not so much. Regardless, the more NJI pilots know, the more they are educated and the more they are involved, the better all will be.

Also, thanks for the kind words and civil discussion.

 

[FL510GV]

Great exchange of info from NJASAP (BW, Diesel, et al) and NJI pilots... oops, where's GPACs input? As JetSpeed said, "the silence is deafening".

 

[wolfpackpilot]

oops, where's GPACs input? As JetSpeed said, "the silence is deafening".

That's a cheap shot.

 

[FL510GV]

WolfPack -- No cheap shot intended... All I am asking for is a number. Where is it?

 

[Flightbag]

Diesel, I believe you are a NJA guy. The picture changes if your not represented by NJASAP.
Trust me. The union does not represent my interests until I pay dues. Sure I will be come a member in two years. Until then they have a duty only to there members like you

You are mistaken. By law the union must represent all the members of a bargaining unit regardless of membership or dues paying status.

The only question to be resolved is, are you a member of the bargaining unit?

Hope this helps.

F

 

[BeeDubya]

You are mistaken. By law the union must represent all the members of a bargaining unit regardless of membership or dues paying status.

The only question to be resolved is, are you a member of the bargaining unit?

Hope this helps.

F

NJASAP is not the bargaining agent for NJI pilots until the remission of the "final integration notice" -- the courts take a very black-or-white approach to this issue. NJA-to-NJI transfers, per the applicable LOAs, are still memebrs of the "craft and class" ("bargaining units" do not exist under the RLA -- that's an NLRA term). Consequently, NJASAP has no DFR to NJI pilots until they become members of the "craft and class." Under our negotiated agreement, covered pilots may elect to be fee payers rather than members. The election of such does not affect our DFR to them, but does not grant them other rights of membership.

Hope that helps.

 

[Flightbag]

NJASAP is not the bargaining agent for NJI pilots until the remission of the "final integration notice" -- the courts take a very black-or-white approach to this issue. NJA-to-NJI transfers, per the applicable LOAs, are still memebrs of the "craft and class" ("bargaining units" do not exist under the RLA -- that's an NLRA term). Consequently, NJASAP has no DFR to NJI pilots until they become members of the "craft and class." Under our negotiated agreement, covered pilots may elect to be fee payers rather than members. The election of such does not affect our DFR to them, but does not grant them other rights of membership.

Hope that helps.

So BeeDubya,

I guess that for the purpose of this discussion, NJI and NJA are two separate groups. One (NJA) is represented by a union while the other (NJI) is not.

Representation is one thing, membership rights are another. Even in an open shop the union is obligated to represent all members of the class & craft regardless of membership or dues paying status.

It sounds like NJA has an agency shop in place. That's a wholly separate point from the duty of fair representation. One has do do with union security while the other deals with the representation obligation of the union.

F

 

[Gruman Fan]

Well I guess it doesn't matter anymore. I hope somebody steps up and explains this one.

Either the company or union had something to do with this I'm sure. And once again, the NJI pilots are left holding the bag.

 

[flyjetspeed]

I am sorry to hear GPAC is withdrawing! I think they just did not have the numbers. Gotta take my hat off to them for having the guts to try! RIP GPAC.

 

[Mountain Troll]

One of the GPAC Key Organizers is a close friend. They had the numbers, the Union knows it as well. Why doesn't somebody ask them. Let me ask you something, Does the Democratic or Republican National Committees release their member lists so you can talk to the people on the list??? Does your your State Election Board release who voted which way to you??? WTF??!! Are you people MORONS??

Look, you had the opportunity to vote to pick a committee to communicate for you and try to educate everyone. Thats right, they were trying to help you. You people created the controversy.

Think about this. If everyone on the list were to call your company President or the Union President, it would take two weeks for either one to field a 10 minute call from everyone. Just what have you done by creating this mess? The opportunity to really know what is happening just died. My hats off to the Key Organizers, they went out on a long thin limb for you guys and you stabbed them in the back. Nice job, especially to the person who publicly accused them of lying. Or the jerks who threatened to pursue them legally. Hope you all enjoy taking your dinner in a plastic bucket along with you to the hotel. Let me ask one more thing.... what have you done to help this situation? That's what I thought.

 

[Gruman Fan]

I just got off the phone with someone close to the GPAC. He wouldn't say a cotton pick'n thing other than:

• NJASAP had nothing to do with this.

• Potential "personal" legal/liability issues precluded this decision.

Are you happy now Montgomery? Are you happy that you helped bring down an honest effort that took months to build, and opened trust and communication avenues that would have otherwise stayed shut?

You can read every post I've ever made on this website and you will wont find one that shows me to be an irrational, arrogant person. So I say this after contemplating the effects it will have on my character, but I don't care...

Way to go you IDIOT...

 

[JetsRfun]

Well, it is a sad day for me, not because GPAC is gone or not, but because we at NJI have managed to get split up. And we did it to ourselves. I don't want to hear whose fault it is, there are always at least two sides to every story. The names calling and the dirty laundry on a public forum, that was unthinkable a few years ago. I never thought this would happen but I guess it's the end of an era. Maybe the happy family feeling is now gone. We too will have guys riding in the hotel van without making eye contact or saying a word to each other. That really sucks.
Things will never be the same from now on in my humble opinion, but I hope to be proven wrong.

I hope everyone flies safely and enjoys their time off with their families, as in the end, it is what really matters.

 

[BeeDubya]

So BeeDubya,

I guess that for the purpose of this discussion, NJI and NJA are two separate groups. One (NJA) is represented by a union while the other (NJI) is not.

NJA (nee EJA) pilots were Uninoized in the mid-70's When NJI (nee EJI) came into existence, an exception to the scope clause was written and they operated non-Union. Through the negoations of 2005 and 2007, and the "recognition notice" of last September, that loophole has been closed. We are now in the midst of the negotiated integration (ending our representational dispute or "single-carrier" dispute). While NJA/NJLA pilots are currently represented by NJASAP, NJI pilots are not yet, but will be after the "final integration notice" is sent.

Representation is one thing, membership rights are another. Even in an open shop the union is obligated to represent all members of the class & craft regardless of membership or dues paying status.

Very true. But we have no legal obligation to pilots who are not currently members of the "class and craft."

It sounds like NJA has an agency shop in place. That's a wholly separate point from the duty of fair representation. One has do do with union security while the other deals with the representation obligation of the union.

F

True again. We are an agency shop. As the bargaining agent for non-members we still have a DFR towards them. As some reading may not be familiar with all the applicable rules and their effect, I thought it was important to be specific (even though, clearly, Flightbag is well aware!).

 

[BeeDubya]

Either the company or union had something to do with this I'm sure. And once again, the NJI pilots are left holding the bag.

The Union agreed to continue communications with the NJI pilots, but neither encouraged nor discouraged GPAC's formation or dissolution. Those decisions were GPAC's alone.

NJASAP continues to encourage NJI pilots to register with us on our website. We will continue to distribute accurate and timely information as we move towards welconing our NJI brothers and sisters as NJASAP members.

 

[RustyFan]

All I am asking for is a number. Where is it?

176... Happy now?

 

[Flightbag]

True again. We are an agency shop. As the bargaining agent for non-members we still have a DFR towards them. As some reading may not be familiar with all the applicable rules and their effect, I thought it was important to be specific (even though, clearly, Flightbag is well aware!).

Thanks for the explanations.

Now here comes the knuckle ball(s).

As I understand it, pilots may transfer from NJA to NJI.

What happens when something bad happens to a mixed crew with wherein one pilot is from NJA and one from NJI and they both get fired. Am I to understand that the union pilot from NJA is entitled to union representation while the the pure NJI pilot is not?

BTW does the pilot who transfers from NJA to NJI still pay union dues? If he pays dues may he run for union office?

F

 

[BeeDubya]

What happens when something bad happens to a mixed crew with wherein one pilot is from NJA and one from NJI and they both get fired. Am I to understand that the union pilot from NJA is entitled to union representation while the the pure NJI pilot is not?

BTW does the pilot who transfers from NJA to NJI still pay union dues? If he pays dues may he run for union office?

F

NJA-to-NJI transfers still pay dues and are NJASAP members in good standing. As such, they may run for office, if they choose.

As for what happens when "something bad happens," the procedures are laid out in LOA 01-013. The NJI pilot would be handled through the internal NJI established procedures. In cases of "serious discipline," the NJA pilot may grive the discipline through the NJI Grievance-Arbitration procedure. If the outcome is adverse to the grievant, the NJA pilot has retreat rights to NJA and if the company elects to take disciplinary action, the pilot has the right to Union protection under Sections 21 and 22 of the CBA (minor dispute process).

After the "final integration notice" is sent, Sections 21 and 22 (minor dispute process) will apply to all NJI pilots.

 

[UtahMonty]

Gruman Fan: On Jan15 you state you just got off phone with someone close to GPAC. And you say they say stopped the effort because of, “potential ‘personal’ legal/liability issues preclude this decision”. I refer everyone back to YOUR post on Jan10 WHERE YOU WRITE: “I also informed them if they…I’d sue them”. Now, who is the idiot?

Rusty Fan: This discussion began with one basic question. Did a majority of the NJI pilots (50% of 384 pilots [minus 10 management] equals about 187) join GPAC? If the answer is yes, then there is a majority and so shall it be. If the real sign up number is 176, then it seems the threshold was not met. But, words and actions mean things so here is your problem. On Jan 1 GPAC sent out an UPDATE which stated “we are very close from having 75% of our group participate”. 75% of 374 pilots is 280. So, do we believe your 176 number or the number implied on the GPAC official release?