Go Jet Airlines, a reasonable option or a way to the blacklist?

[Freight Dog]

Am I the only one to read Freight Dog's post?.......end of argument. The reason this ridiculous thread has went on as long as it has is because an equal or greater amount of people disagree with the crybabies calling these GoJet crews backstabber, scabs, blah blah whatever, get over it.

Nobody should be denied a ride to work/home for a stupid reason as this, your only hurting your own cause, if you don't like it, appeal it, take some real action instead of bellyaching to the no-name trolls on FlightInfo.

Heh, that's right. Nobody would reply with a rational answer. Truth is, they can't.

This once-proud profession is doomed. I mean, seriously... need you look further than this thread to see that?

By reading this thread, you would think that GoJet pilots shattered the last bastion of high-paying wages, that TSA pilots had great career jobs with TSA, all until GoJet showed up and screwed it all up for them. You would think that these TSA/XJT/Mesaba/Mesa pilots are battling Frank Lorenzo and trying to truly defend this profession.

What you children fail to realize is that you are all fighting over $23/hour job vs. $22/hour job. You own no flying - it is all subcontracted to the rock bottom lowest bidder, and your job exists because your company put in a rock-bottom priced bid that ultimately cost mainline pilots their jobs, all in the interest of big management lining up their pockets with bonuses while you are now flying for government cheese wages.

Oh, and the jumpseat denial thing? Children... settle down. Hasn't anyone taught you that jumpseat wars produce no winners? Hasn't anyone told you about the tremendous negotiating capital spent on getting that privilege for EVERY pilot? I can understand not allowing scabs in the jumpseat. Hell, I carried a scablist too when I was a captain. But... which picket line did GoJet pilots cross? Whose strike did GoJet pilots cause to fail? Remember now... $23/hour vs. $22/hour!

If you are going to engage in being "righteous" about your jumpseat denials, you should immediately notify your mainline "partner" to remove your airline from being on their list because you grossly underbid their flying so you can work for government cheese wages and build that jet time. Let's call spade a spade. No? Don't wanna do that? It's the same damn thing. Frankly, you children should not bring jumpseats into this as it sets a really bad precedent.

Now, for the sakes of entertainment and possibly some education, maybe some passionate soul here can answer these questions for me:

1) If courts really screwed up and made such a lousy ruling with respect to TSA/GJ, why isn't there any effort to appeal and overturn that ruling?

2) If GoJet is such an abortion of an airline that screws union pilots out of work, why is there no ALPA recruitment ban?

3) If a pilot who lost his/her ALPA job with a mainline carrier goes to ALPA National for a legal opinion on whether or not to accept a position with GoJet, what will ALPA National say? Now, let's say that ALPA National says - go for it. Now what?

4) What exactly would you want GoJet pilots to do right now to "make things right in your eyes?" I'd like specific actions. How can they force one list with TSA? I'd really like to know.

Please, I'd like a normal answer, not a teenage drama queen answer.

 

[~~~^~~~]

1) NLRB ruling, different venue with different rules
2) Can ALPA enforce a "recruitment ban?"
3) They'll likely not know, or care
4) It is impossible. Can't make it right and they obviously don't care about pleasing others anyway. Some Eastern scabs did volunteer work within ALPA after getting back in and they have my respect for having realized a mistake and done their best to fix it. If I were on a recruitment panel, I'd have to look athe the individual circumstances and what kind of involvement that pilot had since he sought employment at GoJets.

Others are not as forgiving.

 

[Freight Dog]

1) NMB ruling, different venue with different rules
2) Can ALPA enforce a "recruitment ban?"
3) They'll likely not know, or care
4) It is impossible. Can't make it right and they obviously don't care about pleasing others anyway. Some Eastern scabs did volunteer work within ALPA after getting back in and they have my respect for having realized a mistake and done their best to fix it. If I were on a recruitment panel, I'd have to look athe the individual circumstances and what kind of involvement that pilot had since he sought employment at GoJets.

Thank you Fins... here's my reply:

1) What rules are those? God bless this country - we can sue each other til the cows come home. Maybe it's something worth pursuing....

2) No, but they can issue it. It's up to us to 'enforce it' through scab lists, etc. Then there would be a legitimate discrimination against GoJet pilots. Remember IFALPA's recruitment ban against Cathay Pacific? It's just a statement... yet, it's a very powerful one.

3) Well now, that speaks pretty piss poor of ALPA then doesn't it? I remember the AlterEGO issue of Air Line Pilot where they discussed GoJet. Surely, they'd have to have an opinion. What the hell is TSA ALPA paying dues for??

4) Clearly, certain RJ-flying kids here are pissed off at anyone going to GoJet because GoJet is a <insert your favorite insult here>. OK... by that token, shouldn't we get pissed off at American for stapling TWA, or leaving ALPA? Perhaps we should be furious at Continental too for having been known as the scab airline and the fact that right now they only pay newhires $2500/mo with no health insurance for 6 months. How about your current airline, Fins... Delta - you rat bastard... how could you ever go to Delta after what they did to PanAm pilots? You scab a$$hole!!!

See where I'm going with this? It's stupid, moronic, and childish. All the while the managements laugh their asses off all the way to the bank...

There is a fine line between scabbing i.e. crossing a picket line and working for a carrier like GoJet that hasn't crossed any picket lines. Like I said, the initial cadre going to GoJet might have been questionable and quite possibly construed as stabbing their fellow pilots in the back, but the courts have ruled that GoJet is a separate carrier, and as such warrants separate CBA and separate seniority list. Like it or not, that's the law of the land now. Either fight to overturn the ruling, or move on...

Bashing people making choices to go to an airline like GoJet in today's environment, 3 years after legal decisions have been handed down, while engaging in a childish jumpseat war against GoJet pilots is childish at best. Wanna shun the initial cadre of GoJet pilots? Judgment call... you can easily see who they are based on their DOH. Bashing those who go there today - stupid, immature, childish, and serves no purpose whatsoever. Time to move on and concentrate your energy on things you CAN change, not engaging in a useless bash of another pilot group to the delight of management.

 

[~~~^~~~]

1) A Single Carrier Petition goes forward to the National Labor Relations Board. It is not a civil trial. I'm no expert on NLRB/NMB procedure.
2) OK
3) I'd like to read that - I don't remember seeing it. I did just find a great quote from Woerth on the subject that I'll post below. I wasn't a Woerth fan, but if I had heard this speech, I might have been.
4) What? I was in 10th grade then, but Pan Am pilots had a pretty good run at Delta, particularly compared to the alternative.

I would like to quote part of Captain Woerth's speech to the ALPA BOD in October of 2004, which illuminated what many people believe is one of our fundamental problems, both in terms of both Jet
Feeders at home and International Alliance partners abroad.

Captain Woerth said:

(Quote) "A dynamic that our predecessors did not have to contend with was airline brand management. Regulation essentially prevented it by route authority limitations.

Today, airline brands for both passenger and all-cargo operations have developed elaborate strategies to get pilots ho work for separate companies with separate contracts and seniority lists to compete for work within the brand on a "lowest-bid" basis. Of all the challenges vexing us in the first years of the 21st Century, this may be the greatest.

The Bilateral Scope Impact Committee's report that went to the Executive Board was embraced and acclaimed for good reason. It cut to the heart of the matter and succinctly stated the obvious: job security and career progression opportunities are two sides of the same coin. Against an airline brand management strategy, only a counter strategy by the pilots within the brand to deal with both issues together has any chance of succeeding.

If we want to stop erosion of ALPA pay standards, we must deal with job security and career progression as a single issue. A combination of fences and bridges will be required. If we accept the status quo, the race to the bottom will continue.

If we stop pointing fingers and start joining hands, some group of pilots within some brand will be the first to develop a prototype model that stops the bleeding. It is said that "necessity" is the mother of invention. With all the pain, with all the bloodshed within our ranks, we should have all the "necessity" we need to invent something new to stop the whipsawing.

To steal a line from Bob Chimenti, chairman of the FedEx Negotiating Committee, 'For a collective bargaining breakthrough of this magnitude, line pilots will erect 10-foot tall statues of the negotiators who will deliver it.' He could be right - it's that important."(Unquote)

Candidly, I think a lot of the blame should be placed at the feet of the United pilots who put their flying out for bid in the first place. As their entire 737 flying is threatened they want a national list. IMHO, they should fix Chautauqua Airlines, Colgan Air, GoJet Airlines, Mesa Airlines,Shuttle America,SkyWest Airlines,and Trans States Airlines, first.

 

[Freight Dog]

1) A Single Carrier Petition goes forward to the National Labor Relations Board. It is not a civil trial. I'm no expert on NLRB/NMB procedure.
2) OK
3) I'd like to read that - I don't remember seeing it. I did just find a great quote from Woerth on the subject that I'll post below. I wasn't a Woerth fan, but if I had heard this speech, I might have been.
4) What? I was in 10th grade then, but Pan Am pilots had a pretty good run at Delta, particularly compared to the alternative.

1) Neither am I. But that's why TSA pilots are paying ALPA dues. I'm sure there's gotta be an appeal process. I imagine that's part of the due process, but just like you, I'm an ATP, not a JD.

3) I'm not a Woerth fan, but you're right... I like the idea of brand scope, though I disagreed with how RJDC went about achieving things. Woerth recognized that cat was out of the bag, and in a grand scheme of things, certain problems might be addressed in this national seniority drive that UAL pilots started, but this particular issue with GoJet is raw because these are two beggars, two feeders calling each other names, engaging in jumpseat wars, while clearly being unable to see the big picture.

4) Well, a huge number of them got hosed and weren't hired by Delta, but like you said - you were in 10th grade. This GoJet thing was over 3 years ago. At what point do you drop it and concentrate on bigger things? We aren't getting any younger...

 

[ALIMBO]

1) Neither am I. But that's why TSA pilots are paying ALPA dues. I'm sure there's gotta be an appeal process. I imagine that's part of the due process, but just like you, I'm an ATP, not a JD.

3) I'm not a Woerth fan, but you're right... I like the idea of brand scope, though I disagreed with how RJDC went about achieving things. Woerth recognized that cat was out of the bag, and in a grand scheme of things, certain problems might be addressed in this national seniority drive that UAL pilots started, but this particular issue with GoJet is raw because these are two beggars, two feeders calling each other names, engaging in jumpseat wars, while clearly being unable to see the big picture.

4) Well, a huge number of them got hosed and weren't hired by Delta, but like you said - you were in 10th grade. This GoJet thing was over 3 years ago. At what point do you drop it and concentrate on bigger things? We aren't getting any younger...

Thank you for not making me feel guilty about ever possibly going to this airline.

 

[Turtlesfly]

Thank you for not making me feel guilty about ever possibly going to this airline.

PLEASE go there. We don't want you.

 

[CX880]

1 If I were on a recruitment panel, I'd have to look athe the individual circumstances and what kind of involvement that pilot had since he sought employment at GoJets.

Others are not as forgiving.

You're a moron.

 

[CX880]

Ok, how about this.

If you guys don't have problems with other pilots:

Why do you still have separate parking in STL when every other pilot who lives in STL parks in employee parking?

Tonight when I was walking through ORD, 2 GJ FOs were walking along through F. One had he ID turned around and tucked in his shirt between the buttons. They walk by me, get all quiet and can't even bring themselves to look me in the eye. Scum.

In SYR a couple months ago, my crew and I are being brought back from Panera and the van driver says he has to swing by the airport to pick up a crew. We get there, and as we're pulling up to the crew standing at the curb, he (the van driver) realizes it's a GJ crew speeds off and takes us back to the hotel first. The GJ CA literally stood there with his stupid jaw hanging wide open. Most of van drivers know the real story about what happend, and I educate the unfortunate ones that have to pick you POS' up and stay at the same hotel we do.

Ever hear the story why there are no "GoJet Crew" bag tags and you have those orange United ones instead? The way I understand, in the begining the rampers were loyal to TSA and whenever a GJ plane would come in, since all the carryons are carried in the same location as crew luggage, all the crew luggage would be off-loaded and sent to baggage claim, so that when the crew got to the end of the night, they had no bags. I wish I was there to see that...perfection.


The countless GJers that are denied daily the jumpseat trying to commute. It happens, like it or not.


So if you guys are "ok" now with a contract and a union, why is all this stuff still happening? All GJers are scum and will always be scum no matter when you started there. Doesn't matter if you helped start it or started there last week. Enjoy your sham of a career.

Blabala, are you done with the desperate lies? Yea bout 10% of all that is true. I can't speak for others but at the end of my 4 day the last thing I want to do is a pilot relations tour around the terminal. You may be one of those guys that will go out of their way to smile at other pilots but not everyone is like you. The van issue is total BS, like the van drivers care about a pathetic little airline's fewd with their holding company, get a fukking clue. And the bag issue, I'm sure you're taking the TSA BS crewlounge story, have you thought about the fact that since some crews put their overnights in the cargo, the ramp agents forget and they put all of the bags into the ramp on accident?? Yes, because the contract workers care about TSA and GJ, assuming they even know the airlines. You're pathetic and by the way, I would look at you straight in the eye in ORD. I'm picturing a pimpled ass faced 25 year old kid. We don't have to feel sorry for anything and most out there know it, don't blame us for your fukkups. Give it up ***********************************.

 

[Flyer1015]

You're a moron.

So are you for joining GoJets. :laugh:

 

[CX880]

I know another airline that got around "the strangle-hold of american airlines" as you put it. They kept their seniority list intact. Look it up.
.

TSA could have done the same. BUT THEY DIDN"T. What, you think, RAH pilots would have made it all better if they voted NO as well? Management would have started the airlines anyways with or without their help. It's the regionals!!!! Same goes for every other airline management out there if they had to get around scope. Well I guess not Skywest... those guys would give into 737 flying. You're going to argue that the terms weren't right but TSA could have gotten more like GJs have. RAH said yes to a single seniority(because they didn't hate their management) but with $23(same as GJ) for FOs and $69 for 70 seaters(66 for 66 seaters at GJ). It's all relative. So if you look at the big picture does this all really matter? I guess if we don't have each other to bash, how would we go on?

 

[oceandude]

BRAVO!! Glad to see people with brains on this board still!

Heh, that's right.



Nobody would reply with a rational answer. Truth is, they can't.

This once-proud profession is doomed. I mean, seriously... need you look further than this thread to see that?

By reading this thread, you would think that GoJet pilots shattered the last bastion of high-paying wages, that TSA pilots had great career jobs with TSA, all until GoJet showed up and screwed it all up for them. You would think that these TSA/XJT/Mesaba/Mesa pilots are battling Frank Lorenzo and trying to truly defend this profession.

What you children fail to realize is that you are all fighting over $23/hour job vs. $22/hour job. You own no flying - it is all subcontracted to the rock bottom lowest bidder, and your job exists because your company put in a rock-bottom priced bid that ultimately cost mainline pilots their jobs, all in the interest of big management lining up their pockets with bonuses while you are now flying for government cheese wages.

Oh, and the jumpseat denial thing? Children... settle down. Hasn't anyone taught you that jumpseat wars produce no winners? Hasn't anyone told you about the tremendous negotiating capital spent on getting that privilege for EVERY pilot? I can understand not allowing scabs in the jumpseat. Hell, I carried a scablist too when I was a captain. But... which picket line did GoJet pilots cross? Whose strike did GoJet pilots cause to fail? Remember now... $23/hour vs. $22/hour!

If you are going to engage in being "righteous" about your jumpseat denials, you should immediately notify your mainline "partner" to remove your airline from being on their list because you grossly underbid their flying so you can work for government cheese wages and build that jet time. Let's call spade a spade. No? Don't wanna do that? It's the same damn thing. Frankly, you children should not bring jumpseats into this as it sets a really bad precedent.

Now, for the sakes of entertainment and possibly some education, maybe some passionate soul here can answer these questions for me:

1) If courts really screwed up and made such a lousy ruling with respect to TSA/GJ, why isn't there any effort to appeal and overturn that ruling?

2) If GoJet is such an abortion of an airline that screws union pilots out of work, why is there no ALPA recruitment ban?

3) If a pilot who lost his/her ALPA job with a mainline carrier goes to ALPA National for a legal opinion on whether or not to accept a position with GoJet, what will ALPA National say? Now, let's say that ALPA National says - go for it. Now what?

4) What exactly would you want GoJet pilots to do right now to "make things right in your eyes?" I'd like specific actions. How can they force one list with TSA? I'd really like to know.

Please, I'd like a normal answer, not a teenage drama queen answer.

 

[say again]

Blabala, are you done with the desperate lies? Yea bout 10% of all that is true. I can't speak for others but at the end of my 4 day the last thing I want to do is a pilot relations tour around the terminal. You may be one of those guys that will go out of their way to smile at other pilots but not everyone is like you. The van issue is total BS, like the van drivers care about a pathetic little airline's fewd with their holding company, get a fukking clue. And the bag issue, I'm sure you're taking the TSA BS crewlounge story, have you thought about the fact that since some crews put their overnights in the cargo, the ramp agents forget and they put all of the bags into the ramp on accident?? Yes, because the contract workers care about TSA and GJ, assuming they even know the airlines. You're pathetic and by the way, I would look at you straight in the eye in ORD. I'm picturing a pimpled ass faced 25 year old kid. We don't have to feel sorry for anything and most out there know it, don't blame us for your fukkups. Give it up ***********************************.

The mighty rationalization card being played very well by you!!!

You're calling it BS because you don't want to believe it. I'm sorry, but it does happen. When I was at ACA and Mesa was looking to buy us, van driver's from many hotels would do the same thing. They do know what is going on, well sh!t, they hear us b!tch daily.

 

[nwa_contrails]

Exactly. You're just angry because it's true, CX. Wah wah wah.

 

[Guam360]

so, are they hiring or what?

 

[RP170]

his obviously foreign sim partner

Seems to be a lot of those there at GJ (at least it sounds that way over ATC). Why is that? Do they not know any better or what? Not trying to flame, just curious.

 

[CX880]

Seems to be a lot of those there at GJ (at least it sounds that way over ATC). Why is that? Do they not know any better or what? Not trying to flame, just curious.

5% of the pilot group isn't a lot. Besides, Mesa has a lot of foreign sounding pilots over the ATC, what's your point?

 

[RP170]

5% of the pilot group isn't a lot. Besides, Mesa has a lot of foreign sounding pilots over the ATC, what's your point?

That answers my question then. Just sounded like there was more than 5%. As I said, I was just asking.

 

[ALIMBO]

CX I'm out Im not going to GJ no more I found a better place that can work around school a lot better. Sry bro..

 

[CX880]

CX I'm out Im not going to GJ no more I found a better place that can work around school a lot better. Sry bro..

Finish school, it's for the better. GJ won't be hiring low timers anyways soon, classes are being reserved by pt121 out on the street and will probably be so until next year.