Furloughs at Delta and Northwest

[General Lee]

I am sure that if we furlough it will be equally shared. Probably 300-350 from each side. It will not be the merger, it will be fuel. Voting No will not change this.

Which Delta planes will be parked do you think? What about the 737-700s and 777s that are coming?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

You guys keep talking about Furloughs like they have been announced. As of right now no furloughs are planned and to offset the chances of a furlough the NWA side has already established NUMEROUS plans to get some of the old guys to punch out. They did this to COA in the event of either side undermining the no furlough clauses. we have about 300-400 people with papers that are on the fence on whether to leave or not. The company knows these people are going to punch out as soon as they get their equity. Also the guys on the fence have the option of leaving pre-merger and getting their medical and dental coverage covered through retirement. If they stay they will be looking at expensive medical coverage in retirement. is DALPA looking at tne same programs? We'll see.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

More detail will be forthcoming. There are a lot of ifs general. I have realized that things are moving a lot quicker that we realize. FWIW no matter what happens there is no way to get away from this freight train.
Vote no on the JPWA and NWA will probably get what is in it and we will get LOA 19. We will be divided and that is not a good thing. The SLI will happen no matter what we or anyone else tries to do to derail it. Many may not like it, but the TFA basically spells it out.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Though vague there is a MOA that states that DAL and the association will look in to early outs. That says something guys.

 

[Superpilot92]

More detail will be forthcoming. There are a lot of ifs general. I have realized that things are moving a lot quicker that we realize. FWIW no matter what happens there is no way to get away from this freight train.
Vote no on the JPWA and NWA will probably get what is in it and we will get LOA 19. We will be divided and that is not a good thing. The SLI will happen no matter what we or anyone else tries to do to derail it. Many may not like it, but the TFA basically spells it out.

Exactly. NWA will get our own "LOA 19" but it will be the gains in JPWA. The SLI will be done in the same process regardless of the outcome with the TA. We need to take the gains and run help build this company and pilot group up so we can get the industry leading contract when our negotiating environment is better.

 

[exeagle]

You guys keep talking about Furloughs like they have been announced. As of right now no furloughs are planned and to offset the chances of a furlough the NWA side has already established NUMEROUS plans to get some of the old guys to punch out. They did this to COA in the event of either side undermining the no furlough clauses. we have about 300-400 people with papers that are on the fence on whether to leave or not. The company knows these people are going to punch out as soon as they get their equity. Also the guys on the fence have the option of leaving pre-merger and getting their medical and dental coverage covered through retirement. If they stay they will be looking at expensive medical coverage in retirement. is DALPA looking at tne same programs? We'll see.

Just curious, how do you know we have 300 to 400 guys on the fence about leaving?

 

[~~~^~~~]

.... deleted, I'm not sure.

 

[DTW320]

You guys keep talking about Furloughs like they have been announced. As of right now no furloughs are planned and to offset the chances of a furlough the NWA side has already established NUMEROUS plans to get some of the old guys to punch out. They did this to COA in the event of either side undermining the no furlough clauses. we have about 300-400 people with papers that are on the fence on whether to leave or not. The company knows these people are going to punch out as soon as they get their equity. Also the guys on the fence have the option of leaving pre-merger and getting their medical and dental coverage covered through retirement. If they stay they will be looking at expensive medical coverage in retirement. is DALPA looking at tne same programs? We'll see.

This is from the latest Council 20 update clipped from a long discussion of the pros/cons of the TA:
·

Retiree health insurance is the BIG problem. The DAL plans have NO “premium sharing” (active and retired pilots) for pre-age 60 retirees (resulting in a 250% to 400% increase in premiums); and age 60-64 retirees pay a 50% shared premium on a split risk pool limited to that age category (rather than the blended pool currently in use for the NWA plan) leading to a 200% to 300% increase in premiums.
·Pilots who retire before DCC willbe grandfathered under the NWA Plan (and premiums).

This needs to be posted on every base bulletin board/mailroom/left seat clipboard at NWA.

NWA Seniors (to me anyway): Get out now while you still can!!

 

[DTW320]

Hence the supercharged, JATO bottle assisted, Mach 3 drive to get an SLI, ASAP.

This, also from our Council 20 update:

Seniority List Integration (SLI).
In the meantime, the seniority list integration process will begin (again). On July 8, the NWA and DAL “Representatives” (as discussed earlier) will begin a 30-day process to attempt to negotiate a seniority list. The DAL “Representatives” are expected to include the DAL MEC CH and others rather than just specifically their Merger Committee. If an agreement cannot be reached on a combined seniority list by August 8, they will then submit the issues in dispute to a three-member arbitration panel. The arbitration panel will be bound to deliver a single, complete seniority list decision by November 20, 2008, with the option of writing a detailed justification NLT the December 20, 2008.

The stated goal of all parties is to create a single list that will be in place before the Date of Corporate Closing. The joint contract will not become effective without a joint seniority list (with some possible exceptions limited to a DAL management breach of the agreement or rejection of the seniority list).

 

[Superpilot92]

This is from the latest Council 20 update clipped from a long discussion of the pros/cons of the TA:
·This needs to be posted on every base bulletin board/mailroom/left seat clipboard at NWA.

Retiree health insurance is the BIG problem. The DAL plans have NO “premium sharing” (active and retired pilots) for pre-age 60 retirees (resulting in a 250% to 400% increase in premiums); and age 60-64 retirees pay a 50% shared premium on a split risk pool limited to that age category (rather than the blended pool currently in use for the NWA plan) leading to a 200% to 300% increase in premiums.
·Pilots who retire before DCC willbe grandfathered under the NWA Plan (and premiums).

NWA Seniors (to me anyway): Get out now while you still can!!

Exactly!! this will get a lot of guys. They dont want $1000+ dollars a month taken out of their retirement per month just to stick around and fly till they die.

 

[Superpilot92]

Just curious, how do you know we have 300 to 400 guys on the fence about leaving?

HR rumor TIFWIW

 

[~~~^~~~]

Wild Guess Alert​

With the rush to get the SLI done and the timing of the fleet changes and the fact that an aircraft change would be an entire training cycle....​

IF it is true that Delta is delaying their hiring THEN my guess is that there will be displaced NWA pilots on a Delta advanced entitlement bid within the next five months.​

Makes more sense than hiring to furlough. Explains the urgency and I think would be approved by the FAA, even with separate certificates. Requires an airplane change & full training cycle.​

My theory could be shot down (or confirmed) fast by someone with intricate knowledge of the NWA transition agreement. Are the bidding requirements a minimum limit, or a maximum limit? Can they do bids faster than the transition agreement? Can management be in compliance faster than agreed? I bet the answer is yes.

This seems like something that is a "nice to have" that could go either way. ACL65's comment went over my head, but I think one reason for the cancellation of the displacement was that things are moving too fast to train up pilots when the bids are going to be overcome by events.

Occam, FDJ2 (where's he been) and others - am I nuts?​

 

[Fly4hire]

Again, if there are fences and they only park the DC9s, (and the DC9s are fenced), only NWA pilots or new hires after the DCC would be sent to compass.
Bye Bye--General Lee

GL,

Again not talking fences. With a single list your seniority number determines what you fly not your pre-merger aircraft. You may well have 737 F/O's junior to DC9 F/O's. If the DC9 gets parked the senior pilots go where their seniority will let them.

Sans a SOC does not mean that a former NWA DC9 pilot could not displace into a 737 F/O ahead of a SOC. All us former NWA'ers will have to go through a DAL indoc at some point, and full training would simply be indoc + aircraft.

I know you desperately want former NWA pilots to take all the hits, but bottom line is seniority will determine where a pilot goes.

And what would you do with the DC9 Captains - furlough 12+ year NWA pilots while yesterday's DAL new hire is safe. What about a 25 year 747-200 Captain? Don't think so, and a reason I'm guessing there will be no fences.

If we start furloughing out of seniority we open a Pandora's box of problems that would make USair look tame. Even though it's inconceivable to you right now, it could cut the other way as well - the MD-88's are only marginally more efficient than the DC-9-50. IF for some reason 88's were parked and DC9's were not would you be in favor of furloughing those pilots out of seniority, or rather have them be able to bump into a more junior position, even it's a DC9?

This also supports the no hiring in the fall rumor.....

 

[clippyrip]

Wild Guess Alert​

With the rush to get the SLI done and the timing of the fleet changes and the fact that an aircraft change would be an entire training cycle....​

IF it is true that Delta is delaying their hiring THEN my guess is that there will be displaced NWA pilots on a Delta advanced entitlement bid within the next five months.​

Makes more sense than hiring to furlough. Explains the urgency and I think would be approved by the FAA, even with separate certificates. Requires an airplane change & full training cycle.​

My theory could be shot down (or confirmed) fast by someone with intricate knowledge of the NWA transition agreement. Are the bidding requirements a minimum limit, or a maximum limit? Can they do bids faster than the transition agreement? Can management be in compliance faster than agreed? I bet the answer is yes.

This seems like something that is a "nice to have" that could go either way. ACL65's comment went over my head, but I think one reason for the cancellation of the displacement was that things are moving too fast to train up pilots when the bids are going to be overcome by events.

Occam, FDJ2 (where's he been) and others - am I nuts?​

Interesting thought, it makes sense(AND CENTS) to do it that way.

 

[clippyrip]

And what would you do with the DC9 Captains - furlough 12+ year NWA pilots while yesterday's DAL new hire is safe. What about a 25 year 747-200 Captain? Don't think so, and a reason I'm guessing there will be no fences.

Exactly!!

 

[Superpilot92]

we could talk Hypothetical situations all day long but as of right now there are no plans of furloughing anyone. Hypothetically i could win the lottery this week Both NWA and DAL are setting up plans to encourage senior guys to leave in the event any over staffing did occur. Also we both have new planes coming so any furlough would be short lived and mgmt knows this. You can be assured they are counting the beans right now and would prefer not to waste money on training.

 

[clippyrip]

Even though it's inconceivable to you right now, it could cut the other way as well - the MD-88's are only marginally more efficient than the DC-9-50. IF for some reason 88's were parked and DC9's were not would you be in favor of furloughing those pilots out of seniority, or rather have them be able to bump into a more junior position, even it's a DC9?

There you go using logic....

 

[General Lee]

GL,

Again not talking fences. With a single list your seniority number determines what you fly not your pre-merger aircraft. You may well have 737 F/O's junior to DC9 F/O's. If the DC9 gets parked the senior pilots go where their seniority will let them.

Sans a SOC does not mean that a former NWA DC9 pilot could not displace into a 737 F/O ahead of a SOC. All us former NWA'ers will have to go through a DAL indoc at some point, and full training would simply be indoc + aircraft.

I know you desperately want former NWA pilots to take all the hits, but bottom line is seniority will determine where a pilot goes.

And what would you do with the DC9 Captains - furlough 12+ year NWA pilots while yesterday's DAL new hire is safe. What about a 25 year 747-200 Captain? Don't think so, and a reason I'm guessing there will be no fences.

If we start furloughing out of seniority we open a Pandora's box of problems that would make USair look tame. Even though it's inconceivable to you right now, it could cut the other way as well - the MD-88's are only marginally more efficient than the DC-9-50. IF for some reason 88's were parked and DC9's were not would you be in favor of furloughing those pilots out of seniority, or rather have them be able to bump into a more junior position, even it's a DC9?

This also supports the no hiring in the fall rumor.....

Do you really think I would say 742 Captains would displace to Compass? Really? If what you say is true, and there are no fences, then the influx of new 744 Captain slots (thanks to the new ultra long haul rules going into effect--2 Capt/2 FOs over 12 hours) could have Deltoids flying them (assuming a relative seniority SLI like USAir's). That will be fantastic. No fences around the 744s. If you did get fences around them, then you can count on fences around the DC9s, and if they somehow go first, then people not flying them will not get furloughed. That is the point here, if something is fenced to only Ex NWA pilots, then only they are penalized. Those DC9 Captains would displace only ex-NWA equipment I guess. Yes, we will be one list, but IF there are any fences (including your 747s), then there will be some around the DC9s too. IF not, then that's the way it goes. That is my point. Even in my original post, I said if there were fences around the 744s then the DC9s could have them too.

And, I guess you have never been in an MD88 or an MD90. They are a heck of a lot nicer than your DC9s, have FMS and Autothrottles (saves more fuel), carry more pax so that equals a lower CASM, and still have low lease rates (not free like the DC9s though). We use them on trunk routes that used to have 757s on them (mostly up and down the East Coast to large cities---we "right sized" the planes to the routes). Your DC9s have no fuel saving cost measures (all manual, not precise), and are old and noisy. Have you ever heard one of our MD90s? You can't really, they are quiet and go into SNA all of the time.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

do we need to argue this bs anymore? the sli and integration will happen regardless.

 

[General Lee]

do we need to argue this bs anymore? the sli and integration will happen regardless.

I hear ya man. I was just wondering if there were going to possibly be fences. If there are not, then a lot could be different.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

I hear ya man. I was just wondering if there were going to possibly be fences. If there are not, then a lot could be different.

Bye Bye--General Lee

The unofficial fences should be the time between merger and SOC. How long that will be i have no idea.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Fact is that there will be no fences and DAL has found away around the time between DCC and SOC. That in fact may save your hide Superpilot. You may in fact get to come over to that DAL operating cert by default in the first AE which has displacements on it.
It will probably be a CD for your INDOC. That way it will work fine with you showing up for 88 or 738 school here on VA ave right after the first of the year.
After reading the JPWA and all of the side letters it is very clear that they have set up a formal process for this. By canceling your displacements at NWA what they have effectively done is save money on less training events. It will either save them money shipping some out the door, or save them money as there will be displacements on the first joint AE on some NWA equipment. With openings on our you guys will get to bid what you want from day one. Fact is that in reality there will be no such thing as a fence. Both sides have gone to great pain to assure that.

 

[Superpilot92]

Fact is that there will be no fences and DAL has found away around the time between DCC and SOC. That in fact may save your hide Superpilot. You may in fact get to come over to that DAL operating cert by default in the first AE which has displacements on it.
It will probably be a CD for your INDOC. That way it will work fine with you showing up for 88 or 738 school here on VA ave right after the first of the year.
After reading the JPWA and all of the side letters it is very clear that they have set up a formal process for this. By canceling your displacements at NWA what they have effectively done is save money on less training events. It will either save them money shipping some out the door, or save them money as there will be displacements on the first joint AE on some NWA equipment. With openings on our you guys will get to bid what you want from day one. Fact is that in reality there will be no such thing as a fence. Both sides have gone to great pain to assure that.

Who knows what will happen. one thing that is for sure is the NEW DAL is going to do everything it can to reach the synergies it needs to succeed. I dont see furloughs happening especially with the 737s, 777, and 787s coming all in the next year.

Since I wasn't displaced does that mean i get to stay on the DC9?

 

[Meiguy]

With openings on our you guys will get to bid what you want from day one. Fact is that in reality there will be no such thing as a fence. Both sides have gone to great pain to assure that.

Now that is not what I wanted to hear. I guess I feel there should be at least one more bid for Delta guys to move around the system and get where they want before everything is opened up. That is if what you say happens. I'm seeing the ER FO slot I was looking at going out the window right now.

 

[Speedbird34]

There you go using logic....

Rather hit the streets than fly the DC 9. Would be easy to find work elsewhere. Maybe return when the job is worth returning to fly at

Hey you DC 9 drivers I am sure you guys enjoy the aircraft. I jumpseated on the aircraft and I found myself zoning out.

Really some of those aircrafts need to be in the Air spot for tourist in the capital.

We need to be catching up with the rest of the world and we have the desert for good reason:smash:

Sorry if anyone is offended. My sentiments.

 

[~~~^~~~]

MEI and Speedbird:

Call your Reps and call Crew Resources.

I don't think a Delta guy will see a DC9. It is a shrinking fleet and the transfer will be in the other direction. Some NWA guys will see everything from the 777 to the E175. Most likely we stagnate. Worst case 737, or MD88, until that goes away.

We are in the same boat and I even went on a job interview in preparation, but, it doesn't appear status quo will be knocked out from under us. Fuel prices are a wild card.

Not getting the "RJ" flying (CRJ900, E175) was a failure. Those airplanes will perform the majority of DC9 flying.

 

[Speedbird34]

MEI and Speedbird:

Call your Reps and call Crew Resources.

I don't think a Delta guy will see a DC9. It is a shrinking fleet and the transfer will be in the other direction. Some NWA guys will see everything from the 777 to the E175. At worst, I think you might stagnate on the 767.

We are in the same boat and I even went on a job interview in preparation, but, it doesn't appear status quo will be knocked out from under us. Fuel prices are a wild card.

Thanks for the positive feedback. I gave a buddy of mine at Northwest my word that I would never fly a DC 9 except in an emergency. I have had my fair share of old technology. Would pass on the excitement .

 

[Clacker]

Rather hit the streets than fly the DC 9. Would be easy to find work elsewhere. Maybe return when the job is worth returning to fly at

Hey you DC 9 drivers I am sure you guys enjoy the aircraft. I jumpseated on the aircraft and I found myself zoning out.

Really some of those aircrafts need to be in the Air spot for tourist in the capital.

We need to be catching up with the rest of the world and we have the desert for good reason:smash:

Sorry if anyone is offended. My sentiments.

C'mon, Speedy! Where's the love?


The 'ol DC-9 isn't that bad! You flew a Beech 18 and a King Air 90 right? Sheet, the -9 is a Cadillac by comparison! (Well, ok, a '68 Caddy)
And if you find yourself "zoning out" in a 9, then you must be absolutely comatose in the right seat of that 757.

Hell, I'd fly a lawn chair attached to a motorized hang glider if they'd keep paying me, but I'm not particular, I guess.

Not to worry, though. Like Fins pointed out, no one is going to make you fly one. Rest easy tonight...

 

[Superpilot92]

Now that is not what I wanted to hear. I guess I feel there should be at least one more bid for Delta guys to move around the system and get where they want before everything is opened up. That is if what you say happens. I'm seeing the ER FO slot I was looking at going out the window right now.

Have you read the documentation the MECS have put out?

What about you Speedbird34?

Crack a few beers, pull up the lawnchair and turn on the bug zapper and read ALL of it. BOTH MECs did a good job with this agreement considering our negotiating environment. :beer:

 

[dtfl]

Fact is that in reality there will be no such thing as a fence. Both sides have gone to great pain to assure that.

Ridiculous.
How much crap do we both have to eat to further this idea of making each other happy? I'm totally for some sort of fences. Nothing that lasts forever....a 2-3 year fence..or be very very conservative with AEs. What the company does not want nor need is lots and lots of displacements as soon as the SLI is done, the pilots are one group and the first AE comes out. Paying for those displacements...folks having to move, etc costs $. If we are going to allow both groups to start bidding like drunken gamblers, then IMO it should be limited. Limit the AEs..or...put up fences!