Furloughs at Delta and Northwest

[Superpilot92]

If the SLI is going to go through and look the same no matter what the vote is, then I have even LESS reason to vote for it. We already have LOA 19. There is essentially nothing added by the JPWA. Do we somehow lose LOA 19 if the JPWA doesn't pass?

LOA 19 was acceptable because it meant small raises and separate lists. The JPWA is not acceptable. If I now have to accept the risk of an unfavorable SLI, then I need to be compensated more for that risk. Minimal raises locked in until the next down turn is not enough. I could very well be stuck with it anyway, but I don't have to vote for it.

I'm going to think it over some more over my next trip, but I am finding it less and less likely that I will vote in favor. If I could be assured of keeping my relative seniority, I'd most likely be in. But short of that, it's gonna take more than increasing overtime pay.

Frankly, I would rather be put on the street than lose seniority and face a displacement.

You obviously havent read anything

 

[~~~^~~~]

Tracom:

Your vote is your vote and you are thinking it over. I'm not trying to convince you.

But consider the framework of the SLI and the non prejudicial agreements. If you don't have them, PM me and I'll walk you through finding them. It should be a fair SLI, which should preserve your status quo.

Displacements are unlikely unless the 767/757 fleet shrinks.

 

[Superpilot92]

Without the JPWA Delta probably hires while NWA furloughs. IF NWA had a surplus of pilots and the F-Bomb was dropped the numerous programs we have in place now would Easily take care of any surplus. I suspect many will leave as is anyway to get grandfathered in with the current NWA medical coverage in retirement as opposed to paying DOUBLE after DCC. That makes no sense and there is no reason be vindictive because the NWA guys got more. We need the standard to improve, for everyone.

Eventually new hires and flow through pilots come on board below all of us.

As long as we get a fair SLI and the NWA guys take what they can fairly hold ... good.

Putting off the inevitable for 6 to 18 months is not going to give anyone an edge in SLI.

We are a union.

P.S. Clippy - your point is what I wrote months ago based on load factors, revenue trends and demographics. The NWA pilots castrated me and called me a liar. Now it looks like again, the numbers tell the story.

ALPA acts like the RJ's are vanquished, but that isn't true. The numbers tell the story. We need to get as many of these guys as we can on the list & capture that flying. Otherwise our 30% raise will be a 100% pay cut as they grow into our DC9 and MD88 flying.

I'm going to keep raising this alarm until someone takes notice and executes the appropriate action items.

Great post !! :beer:

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Fin you wife is going to kill you. Go do the yard work!

 

[Tracom]

You obviously havent read anything

Yeah, I know you really want this thing to pass...got it.

 

[Tracom]

Tracom:

Your vote is your vote and you are thinking it over. I'm not trying to convince you.

But consider the framework of the SLI and the non prejudicial agreements. If you don't have them, PM me and I'll walk you through finding them. It should be a fair SLI, which should preserve your status quo.

Displacements are unlikely unless the 767/757 fleet shrinks.

Fair enough. That it 'should' be a fair SLI is still a big "SHOULD". If I vote in favor, it will be b/c I feel that it is acceptable, not because it is the best we can hope for right now. To me, it is either acceptable or it isn't.

Problem is, that is hard to determine with so much left unknown. I would also feel much more comfortable if it was amendable in 2010 vice 2012.

We will see.

 

[PuffDriver]

If the SLI is going to go through and look the same no matter what the vote is, then I have even LESS reason to vote for it. We already have LOA 19. There is essentially nothing added by the JPWA. Do we somehow lose LOA 19 if the JPWA doesn't pass?

LOA 19 was acceptable because it meant small raises and separate lists. The JPWA is not acceptable. If I now have to accept the risk of an unfavorable SLI, then I need to be compensated more for that risk. Minimal raises locked in until the next down turn is not enough. I could very well be stuck with it anyway, but I don't have to vote for it.

I'm going to think it over some more over my next trip, but I am finding it less and less likely that I will vote in favor. If I could be assured of keeping my relative seniority, I'd most likely be in. But short of that, it's gonna take more than increasing overtime pay.

Frankly, I would rather be put on the street than lose seniority and face a displacement.

Ok, I think that I have heard enough. You are voting no, ok. So do it. In less than 6 months you will be right back where you are now, except that there will only be 1 arbitrator and a bunch of pissed off NWA pilots again.

They already had to eat crow once because of the "backstabbing" thing, which actually turned out to be a reach around--a good thing. Indeed, they got parity from day 1, and pretty much owe us. We knew it was going to happen. It HAD to happen. To have two lists under one holding company with differing pay scales would be DISASTROUS, and all incentive for the disadvantaged to "burn the house down, BOB, or whatever else their street gang minds can think up. How are they going to pay us back? Not on the SLI, that's for sure. They are going to want their cake and eat it too. In short, they aren't. You simply get to reming them from now on how wrong they all were, and how right we were.

This thing has it's best chance to end peacefully with a negotiated SLI, which comes from a yes vote from both groups. Either group voting no will be severely pounded by both the company, and eventually the arbitrator. I give arbitration in one form or the other a 99% chance. If you do it under ALPA merger policy, you turn this whole thing into a USAir/AWA bloodbath, and I don't believe either MEC will allow that.

The Delta pilots were always going to get the short end of the stick with regard to negotiating capital for the JPWA. The real potatoes come in the SLI, and every trump card is held by the Delta merger committee, short of a crooked arbitrator--or three.

 

[Superpilot92]

Yeah, I know you really want this thing to pass...got it.

i want it to pass mainly because it will allow our two pilot groups to completely integrate and become 1 solid unified pilot group. I dont want to see a USAIR mess here when it can be avoided. Both of our MECs are doing a great job to ensure that doesnt happen but voting this down gets the same results in the long run but further divides the groups when we are so close to bucking the trend. Doing so is a huge step forward in this industry. The idea is to look past your nose and look at the big picture that OUR MECs are showing us.

 

[Superpilot92]

Ok, I think that I have heard enough. You are voting no, ok. So do it. In less than 6 months you will be right back where you are now, except that there will only be 1 arbitrator and a bunch of pissed off NWA pilots again.

They already had to eat crow once because of the "backstabbing" thing, which actually turned out to be a reach around--a good thing. Indeed, they got parity from day 1, and pretty much owe us. We knew it was going to happen. It HAD to happen. To have two lists under one holding company with differing pay scales would be DISASTROUS, and all incentive for the disadvantaged to "burn the house down, BOB, or whatever else their street gang minds can think up. How are they going to pay us back? Not on the SLI, that's for sure. They are going to want their cake and eat it too. In short, they aren't. You simply get to reming them from now on how wrong they all were, and how right we were.

This thing has it's best chance to end peacefully with a negotiated SLI, which comes from a yes vote from both groups. Either group voting no will be severely pounded by both the company, and eventually the arbitrator. I give arbitration in one form or the other a 99% chance. If you do it under ALPA merger policy, you turn this whole thing into a USAir/AWA bloodbath, and I don't believe either MEC will allow that.

The Delta pilots were always going to get the short end of the stick with regard to negotiating capital for the JPWA. The real potatoes come in the SLI, and every trump card is held by the Delta merger committee, short of a crooked arbitrator--or three.

DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER!! Good post puff.

 

[123]

.. well the 9 has digital pressurization ..

AND a digital altimeter on the captain AND FO side now...

 

[Tracom]

It basically comes down to this. Too little pay for too long a time. Throw in the possibility of going backwards in seniority, and it looks even less appealing.

I completely understand the NW enthusiasm, but I would like to see them vote it down, too. I have no problem with parity, and no problem w/ a relative seniority list.

Yes, times are tough and oil is high. But I'm not going to vote for what I believe is a sub standard contract just because it is the easy thing to do or because there is no better offer right now. Just because it is the best offer, doesn't make it right.

I am still undecided, just trying to offer up a different view. Yes, the pay is better under the JPWA, but overall, it still isn't good. Not expecting contract 2000 (right now), but if there are not significant improvements soon, then this line of work is not worth it to me. Waiting until 2012 for the hope that the next offer will be reasonable is concerning.

Waiting until I'm 50 and too tired/bitter to walk is not an option either.

Just one opinion, and I may still vote yes. Just thinking out loud.

 

[123]

Frankly, I would rather be put on the street than lose seniority and face a displacement.

Wouldn't you be incurring the ultimate displacement if you were put on the street? Your statement doesn't make any sense....

 

[Tracom]

Wouldn't you be incurring the ultimate displacement if you were put on the street? Your statement doesn't make any sense....

No, I would rather be on the street than be commuting to reserve on the 9 in Detroit. It only doesn't make sense if you equate any employment with good employment.

I know lots of guys are just "happy to have a job", but I'm not one of them. I will go do something else before I start looking for crash pads at one of the NW bases.

Not trying to throw darts, just stating fact. Everyont has different priorities.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Is this before or after we get 8 777LRs next year, along with 10 more 737-700s, and a bunch of MD90s? Anything is possible I guess.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

They are single pilot A/C, back to the CRJ for you! New legislation/certification, along with open skies.
PBR

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

It's true that the pay rates provide parity.

But JPWA does NOT provide parity for the DC pension. There are some NWA guys who receive little TDC money, and have been shorted on the DB plan because of the freezing.

The JPWA ramps up DC money for NWA guys slowly (it's all back loaded). The junior guys have the TDC money, and the senior guys have the DB. Some NWA guys will have a hard time with this aspect.

The DAL training section stinks, and there are a few other stinkers in there as well, like only a $400 allowance for new uniforms.

With that said, it is still a yes for me, but don't think it was a home run for the NWA guys (I'll just have to save up for a hat).

Nu