Furloughs at Delta and Northwest

[Tracom]

Tracom:

Your vote is your vote and you are thinking it over. I'm not trying to convince you.

But consider the framework of the SLI and the non prejudicial agreements. If you don't have them, PM me and I'll walk you through finding them. It should be a fair SLI, which should preserve your status quo.

Displacements are unlikely unless the 767/757 fleet shrinks.

Fair enough. That it 'should' be a fair SLI is still a big "SHOULD". If I vote in favor, it will be b/c I feel that it is acceptable, not because it is the best we can hope for right now. To me, it is either acceptable or it isn't.

Problem is, that is hard to determine with so much left unknown. I would also feel much more comfortable if it was amendable in 2010 vice 2012.

We will see.

 

[PuffDriver]

If the SLI is going to go through and look the same no matter what the vote is, then I have even LESS reason to vote for it. We already have LOA 19. There is essentially nothing added by the JPWA. Do we somehow lose LOA 19 if the JPWA doesn't pass?

LOA 19 was acceptable because it meant small raises and separate lists. The JPWA is not acceptable. If I now have to accept the risk of an unfavorable SLI, then I need to be compensated more for that risk. Minimal raises locked in until the next down turn is not enough. I could very well be stuck with it anyway, but I don't have to vote for it.

I'm going to think it over some more over my next trip, but I am finding it less and less likely that I will vote in favor. If I could be assured of keeping my relative seniority, I'd most likely be in. But short of that, it's gonna take more than increasing overtime pay.

Frankly, I would rather be put on the street than lose seniority and face a displacement.

Ok, I think that I have heard enough. You are voting no, ok. So do it. In less than 6 months you will be right back where you are now, except that there will only be 1 arbitrator and a bunch of pissed off NWA pilots again.

They already had to eat crow once because of the "backstabbing" thing, which actually turned out to be a reach around--a good thing. Indeed, they got parity from day 1, and pretty much owe us. We knew it was going to happen. It HAD to happen. To have two lists under one holding company with differing pay scales would be DISASTROUS, and all incentive for the disadvantaged to "burn the house down, BOB, or whatever else their street gang minds can think up. How are they going to pay us back? Not on the SLI, that's for sure. They are going to want their cake and eat it too. In short, they aren't. You simply get to reming them from now on how wrong they all were, and how right we were.

This thing has it's best chance to end peacefully with a negotiated SLI, which comes from a yes vote from both groups. Either group voting no will be severely pounded by both the company, and eventually the arbitrator. I give arbitration in one form or the other a 99% chance. If you do it under ALPA merger policy, you turn this whole thing into a USAir/AWA bloodbath, and I don't believe either MEC will allow that.

The Delta pilots were always going to get the short end of the stick with regard to negotiating capital for the JPWA. The real potatoes come in the SLI, and every trump card is held by the Delta merger committee, short of a crooked arbitrator--or three.

 

[Superpilot92]

Yeah, I know you really want this thing to pass...got it.

i want it to pass mainly because it will allow our two pilot groups to completely integrate and become 1 solid unified pilot group. I dont want to see a USAIR mess here when it can be avoided. Both of our MECs are doing a great job to ensure that doesnt happen but voting this down gets the same results in the long run but further divides the groups when we are so close to bucking the trend. Doing so is a huge step forward in this industry. The idea is to look past your nose and look at the big picture that OUR MECs are showing us.

 

[Superpilot92]

Ok, I think that I have heard enough. You are voting no, ok. So do it. In less than 6 months you will be right back where you are now, except that there will only be 1 arbitrator and a bunch of pissed off NWA pilots again.

They already had to eat crow once because of the "backstabbing" thing, which actually turned out to be a reach around--a good thing. Indeed, they got parity from day 1, and pretty much owe us. We knew it was going to happen. It HAD to happen. To have two lists under one holding company with differing pay scales would be DISASTROUS, and all incentive for the disadvantaged to "burn the house down, BOB, or whatever else their street gang minds can think up. How are they going to pay us back? Not on the SLI, that's for sure. They are going to want their cake and eat it too. In short, they aren't. You simply get to reming them from now on how wrong they all were, and how right we were.

This thing has it's best chance to end peacefully with a negotiated SLI, which comes from a yes vote from both groups. Either group voting no will be severely pounded by both the company, and eventually the arbitrator. I give arbitration in one form or the other a 99% chance. If you do it under ALPA merger policy, you turn this whole thing into a USAir/AWA bloodbath, and I don't believe either MEC will allow that.

The Delta pilots were always going to get the short end of the stick with regard to negotiating capital for the JPWA. The real potatoes come in the SLI, and every trump card is held by the Delta merger committee, short of a crooked arbitrator--or three.

DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER!! Good post puff.

 

[123]

.. well the 9 has digital pressurization ..

AND a digital altimeter on the captain AND FO side now...

 

[Tracom]

It basically comes down to this. Too little pay for too long a time. Throw in the possibility of going backwards in seniority, and it looks even less appealing.

I completely understand the NW enthusiasm, but I would like to see them vote it down, too. I have no problem with parity, and no problem w/ a relative seniority list.

Yes, times are tough and oil is high. But I'm not going to vote for what I believe is a sub standard contract just because it is the easy thing to do or because there is no better offer right now. Just because it is the best offer, doesn't make it right.

I am still undecided, just trying to offer up a different view. Yes, the pay is better under the JPWA, but overall, it still isn't good. Not expecting contract 2000 (right now), but if there are not significant improvements soon, then this line of work is not worth it to me. Waiting until 2012 for the hope that the next offer will be reasonable is concerning.

Waiting until I'm 50 and too tired/bitter to walk is not an option either.

Just one opinion, and I may still vote yes. Just thinking out loud.

 

[123]

Frankly, I would rather be put on the street than lose seniority and face a displacement.

Wouldn't you be incurring the ultimate displacement if you were put on the street? Your statement doesn't make any sense....

 

[Tracom]

Wouldn't you be incurring the ultimate displacement if you were put on the street? Your statement doesn't make any sense....

No, I would rather be on the street than be commuting to reserve on the 9 in Detroit. It only doesn't make sense if you equate any employment with good employment.

I know lots of guys are just "happy to have a job", but I'm not one of them. I will go do something else before I start looking for crash pads at one of the NW bases.

Not trying to throw darts, just stating fact. Everyont has different priorities.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Is this before or after we get 8 777LRs next year, along with 10 more 737-700s, and a bunch of MD90s? Anything is possible I guess.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

They are single pilot A/C, back to the CRJ for you! New legislation/certification, along with open skies.
PBR

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

It's true that the pay rates provide parity.

But JPWA does NOT provide parity for the DC pension. There are some NWA guys who receive little TDC money, and have been shorted on the DB plan because of the freezing.

The JPWA ramps up DC money for NWA guys slowly (it's all back loaded). The junior guys have the TDC money, and the senior guys have the DB. Some NWA guys will have a hard time with this aspect.

The DAL training section stinks, and there are a few other stinkers in there as well, like only a $400 allowance for new uniforms.

With that said, it is still a yes for me, but don't think it was a home run for the NWA guys (I'll just have to save up for a hat).

Nu

 

[Superpilot92]

It basically comes down to this. Too little pay for too long a time. Throw in the possibility of going backwards in seniority, and it looks even less appealing.

I completely understand the NW enthusiasm, but I would like to see them vote it down, too. I have no problem with parity, and no problem w/ a relative seniority list.

Yes, times are tough and oil is high. But I'm not going to vote for what I believe is a sub standard contract just because it is the easy thing to do or because there is no better offer right now. Just because it is the best offer, doesn't make it right.

I am still undecided, just trying to offer up a different view. Yes, the pay is better under the JPWA, but overall, it still isn't good. Not expecting contract 2000 (right now), but if there are not significant improvements soon, then this line of work is not worth it to me. Waiting until 2012 for the hope that the next offer will be reasonable is concerning.

Waiting until I'm 50 and too tired/bitter to walk is not an option either.

Just one opinion, and I may still vote yes. Just thinking out loud.

All valid points, however you wont and cant be displaced the way our MECs set this up. As far as pay goes neither company was set to get pay raises this year anyway and i know DAL would have been starting negotiations soon (i think next year, correct me if i am wrong) but in all honesty its probably good you arent trying to negotiate next year with the economy and industry heading the way it is. Oil over $145 today WTF . This agreement allows us to join up, get some gains and start building our warchest while the company digs in, reaches the efficiencies it thinks it can get. That way when the time comes to get a new contract the company is set and we can get the industry leading contract. The best chance we have at EVER seeing an industry leading contract is to combine as a pilot group and start working together now. Pushing this off will get us the same SLI but further divide us as a pilot group.

thanks for your views its nice to have a decent debate instead of the common flames we often see on here.

 

[Superpilot92]

No, I would rather be on the street than be commuting to reserve on the 9 in Detroit. It only doesn't make sense if you equate any employment with good employment.

I know lots of guys are just "happy to have a job", but I'm not one of them. I will go do something else before I start looking for crash pads at one of the NW bases.

Not trying to throw darts, just stating fact. Everyont has different priorities.

You need to understand that under the JPWA and LOAs it wont be possible for you to get displaced. Read the documentation it should answer all your questions. Again you wont be Displaced. You will never see a NWA DC9 unless you choose to do so.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The DAL training section stinks, and there are a few other stinkers in there as well, like only a $400 allowance for new uniforms.

Nu

That's $400 more than the Delta pilots got. We get no uniform allowance and you get a free year of travel that we had to pay $50 to enjoy, FWIW. Those who came from ASA & CMR got to pay $100 for travel bennies.

Anyone know when buddy pass riders can standby for each other's airline? Trying to get a friend here from MNL.

 

[Superpilot92]

That's $400 more than the Delta pilots got. We get no uniform allowance and you get a free year of travel that we had to pay $50 to enjoy, FWIW. Those who came from ASA & CMR got to pay $100 for travel bennies.

Anyone know when buddy pass riders can standby for each other's airline? Trying to get a friend here from MNL.

The only reason why we are getting 400 is because we have all already paid for our uniforms. We dont get free uniforms as newhires here either. So that 400 is replacement costs for the expenses we had to pay for our NWA uniforms.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Those who came from ASA & CMR got to pay $100 for travel bennies.

You had to pay again? Why do we accept this starting all over again including paying a fee that was already paid? I guarantee you that an executive that goes from ASA or CMR to DAL doesn't pay again...We have really shot ourselves in the foot...

 

[jester757]

This might have been answered in one of the previous post (19 pages...) but what did NWA come away with as far as furlough protections? Did they get the same deal as DAL --- no furloughs as a result of a merger for 24 months after DOCC?? Do NWA guys have any protections PRIOR to the merger being completed?

 

[Superpilot92]

This might have been answered in one of the previous post (19 pages...) but what did NWA come away with as far as furlough protections? Did they get the same deal as DAL --- no furloughs as a result of a merger for 24 months after DOCC?? Do NWA guys have any protections PRIOR to the merger being completed?

Are you NWA or DAL? If NWA go to the Mergerwebsite via the alpa page it has EVERY document for the merger. NWA pilots have the No furlough clause "based on the merger" as well as a LOA signed recently with Mgmt that says no layoffs as a result of the announced cutbacks. Both DAL and NWA have adopted early out programs i believe. NWA has a number of plans available and a number of incentives to get the over 50 guys to bail.

 

[Bluto]

You had to pay again? Why do we accept this starting all over again including paying a fee that was already paid? I guarantee you that an executive that goes from ASA or CMR to DAL doesn't pay again...We have really shot ourselves in the foot...

You don't have to accept it. Nobody put a gun to anybody's head and forced them to apply to Delta. Though, the ASA and Comair guys I know would gladly pay the extra $50 rather than spend the rest of their careers as subcontractors.