Furloughs at Delta and Northwest

[Superpilot92]

Ridiculous.
How much crap do we both have to eat to further this idea of making each other happy? I'm totally for some sort of fences. Nothing that lasts forever....a 2-3 year fence..or be very very conservative with AEs. What the company does not want nor need is lots and lots of displacements as soon as the SLI is done, the pilots are one group and the first AE comes out. Paying for those displacements...folks having to move, etc costs $. If we are going to allow both groups to start bidding like drunken gamblers, then IMO it should be limited. Limit the AEs..or...put up fences!

Have you read any documentation in regards to this subject? The MECs have made it clear there WONT be displacements or a bump and flush with the SLI. There is a Wealth of information on every aspect of the merger and SLI process.

 

[Noserider76]

Have you read any documentation in regards to this subject? The MECs have made it clear there WONT be displacements or a bump and flush with the SLI. There is a Wealth of information on every aspect of the merger and SLI process.

It's not about no bump/flush. That should be a given. It's about senior F/Os upgrades indefinitely delayed. Junior Capt lineholders suddenly being on reserve etc. There is not going to be a mass movement to MSP or DTW. It'll be DL people that pay the price. 3-5 year fences should be the minimum requirement. Period.

 

[Meiguy]

It's not about no bump/flush. That should be a given. It's about senior F/Os upgrades indefinitely delayed. Junior Capt lineholders suddenly being on reserve etc. There is not going to be a mass movement to MSP or DTW. It'll be DL people that pay the price. 3-5 year fences should be the minimum requirement. Period.

You have to make it to the seat before not being bumped out..

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Fact is that even voting this down will not give you the protection you desire. DAL will not give us a fence. That has been a requirement from day one. Basically I was told it was nonnegotiable.

 

[123]

I hear ya man. I was just wondering if there were going to possibly be fences. If there are not, then a lot could be different.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I think they took care of the fence problem for the 744 with making the payrates the same as the 777.

 

[Superpilot92]

It's not about no bump/flush. That should be a given. It's about senior F/Os upgrades indefinitely delayed. Junior Capt lineholders suddenly being on reserve etc. There is not going to be a mass movement to MSP or DTW. It'll be DL people that pay the price. 3-5 year fences should be the minimum requirement. Period.

DAL MGMT are the ones who actively said there wont be fences because they need the flexibility and synergies to make this merger viable thus giving us the best chance at survival considering the current events. Voting it down wont change that and will likely get you less money. Also dont forget that just because "NWA" pilots might move around to different bases it will likely be because "our" planes will be moved to "DAL" Bases thus making positions not already accounted for with "your" dal. Also there are DAL pilots that will want to eventually move to "NWA" bases.

If we can get DFW back open i am all over it!!

 

[Noserider76]

Fact is that even voting this down will not give you the protection you desire. DAL will not give us a fence. That has been a requirement from day one. Basically I was told it was nonnegotiable.

If it's nonnegotiable then we haven't applied enough leverage. This is the one thing that can disrupt all of our lives more than any other. There is nothing stopping the company from flying any equipment from anywhere with fences except a little credit/ deadhead time. Without any guarantee of what's in store the longer we can put this potential furball off, the better.

 

[Superpilot92]

If it's nonnegotiable then we haven't applied enough leverage. This is the one thing that can disrupt all of our lives more than any other. There is nothing stopping the company from flying any equipment from anywhere with fences except a little credit/ deadhead time. Without any guarantee of what's in store the longer we can put this potential furball off, the better.

Its going to happen regardless of how you vote on the TA thats ACL65s point. The company is doing everything it can to ensure of it because that was their point of the merger (freedom to adjust the airline as it needs to stay a viable company in this mess of an industry). The SLI will get done the SOC will get done and things will change, voting down the TA doesnt change that and just loses the gains that are in the JPWA. Read the documentation most of your concerns will be answered.

 

[Noserider76]

Its going to happen regardless of how you vote on the TA thats ACL65s point. The company is doing everything it can to ensure of it because that was their point of the merger (freedom to adjust the airline as it needs to stay a viable company in this mess of an industry). The SLI will get done the SOC will get done and things will change, voting down the TA doesnt change that and just loses the gains that are in the JPWA. Read the documentation most of your concerns will be answered.

I've read it, talked with reps and in a nutshell, I'm more concerned than ever we're giving the company free reign to F up our lives.

 

[Rough67]

have FMS and Autothrottles .


Bye Bye--General Lee

.. well the 9 has digital pressurization ..

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Oh I think that the next few years are going to be painful with or with out this JPWA. With it we will be taking NWA guys on over here before the SOC. If there is no JPWA things will get ugly.

Remember when the CMR MEC wanted the DAL guys to give up their numbers to come over there. Look at it this way. If the JPWA is voted down, there is no effective way to get the displaced NWA guys over to our certificate. Their only option is a flow down to Compass or a street. Knowing that if we vote this in they could come over to our Operating Certificate and keep their main line jobs, is a big plus. (Read good juju for all) If any one of them gets furloughed by us voting this down, I am sure that the 25 year olds will still have ill will towards each other in 30 years.
Suffice to say, even if you do not think that the JPWA is a great deal, there are many good parts of the deal. You must take the good with the bad. Wait until the financials start pouring out in a few weeks. WE are getting PAY RAISES and a an equity stake when others are loosing their jobs. Get some perspective of what world economic environment this was negotiated in.
Actions that you make today as a pilot group will effect the rest of your career here. Make sure you vote yes or no for the correct reasons. There is a lot in pay here that many have not even considered.

 

[clippyrip]

It's about senior F/Os upgrades indefinitely delayed. Junior Capt lineholders suddenly being on reserve etc. There is not going to be a mass movement to MSP or DTW. It'll be DL people that pay the price. 3-5 year fences should be the minimum requirement. Period.

If we have fences then MGMT cant move around equipment to best utilize them and become more efficient. It would negate the merger and make this almost pointless.

You may be getting more of our equipment in your bases anyway.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Without the JPWA Delta probably hires while NWA furloughs. That makes no sense and there is no reason be vindictive because the NWA guys got more. We need the standard to improve, for everyone.

Eventually new hires and flow through pilots come on board below all of us.

As long as we get a fair SLI and the NWA guys take what they can fairly hold ... good.

Putting off the inevitable for 6 to 18 months is not going to give anyone an edge in SLI.

We are a union.

P.S. Clippy - your point is what I wrote months ago based on load factors, revenue trends and demographics. The NWA pilots castrated me and called me a liar. Now it looks like again, the numbers tell the story.

ALPA acts like the RJ's are vanquished, but that isn't true. The numbers tell the story. We need to get as many of these guys as we can on the list & capture that flying. Otherwise our 30% raise will be a 100% pay cut as they grow into our DC9 and MD88 flying.

I'm going to keep raising this alarm until someone takes notice and executes the appropriate action items.

 

[Tracom]

If the SLI is going to go through and look the same no matter what the vote is, then I have even LESS reason to vote for it. We already have LOA 19. There is essentially nothing added by the JPWA. Do we somehow lose LOA 19 if the JPWA doesn't pass?

LOA 19 was acceptable because it meant small raises and separate lists. The JPWA is not acceptable. If I now have to accept the risk of an unfavorable SLI, then I need to be compensated more for that risk. Minimal raises locked in until the next down turn is not enough. I could very well be stuck with it anyway, but I don't have to vote for it.

I'm going to think it over some more over my next trip, but I am finding it less and less likely that I will vote in favor. If I could be assured of keeping my relative seniority, I'd most likely be in. But short of that, it's gonna take more than increasing overtime pay.

Frankly, I would rather be put on the street than lose seniority and face a displacement.

 

[Superpilot92]

I've read it, talked with reps and in a nutshell, I'm more concerned than ever we're giving the company free reign to F up our lives.

If we dont get the efficiencies and synergies of the merger the state of the economy+oil will F up our lives more. According to BOTH MECs we need this merger to ensure our lives dont get F'ed up. This is the lesser of the 2 evils. At least this way we have the opportunity of success and allowing the company to dig in. This will get done eventually and pushing it off will only waste valuable cash WE need.

Just because NWA and DAL aircraft get shuffled around doesnt necessarily mean anything is getting messed up. If anything it might give you more options. There is a reason why BOTH MECs Unanimously ratified this based on the Facts they were given. Could it have been better? Yes IF the entire industry wasnt on the verge of COLLAPSE.

 

[Superpilot92]

If the SLI is going to go through and look the same no matter what the vote is, then I have even LESS reason to vote for it. We already have LOA 19. There is essentially nothing added by the JPWA. Do we somehow lose LOA 19 if the JPWA doesn't pass?

LOA 19 was acceptable because it meant small raises and separate lists. The JPWA is not acceptable. If I now have to accept the risk of an unfavorable SLI, then I need to be compensated more for that risk. Minimal raises locked in until the next down turn is not enough. I could very well be stuck with it anyway, but I don't have to vote for it.

I'm going to think it over some more over my next trip, but I am finding it less and less likely that I will vote in favor. If I could be assured of keeping my relative seniority, I'd most likely be in. But short of that, it's gonna take more than increasing overtime pay.

Frankly, I would rather be put on the street than lose seniority and face a displacement.

You obviously havent read anything

 

[~~~^~~~]

Tracom:

Your vote is your vote and you are thinking it over. I'm not trying to convince you.

But consider the framework of the SLI and the non prejudicial agreements. If you don't have them, PM me and I'll walk you through finding them. It should be a fair SLI, which should preserve your status quo.

Displacements are unlikely unless the 767/757 fleet shrinks.

 

[Superpilot92]

Without the JPWA Delta probably hires while NWA furloughs. IF NWA had a surplus of pilots and the F-Bomb was dropped the numerous programs we have in place now would Easily take care of any surplus. I suspect many will leave as is anyway to get grandfathered in with the current NWA medical coverage in retirement as opposed to paying DOUBLE after DCC. That makes no sense and there is no reason be vindictive because the NWA guys got more. We need the standard to improve, for everyone.

Eventually new hires and flow through pilots come on board below all of us.

As long as we get a fair SLI and the NWA guys take what they can fairly hold ... good.

Putting off the inevitable for 6 to 18 months is not going to give anyone an edge in SLI.

We are a union.

P.S. Clippy - your point is what I wrote months ago based on load factors, revenue trends and demographics. The NWA pilots castrated me and called me a liar. Now it looks like again, the numbers tell the story.

ALPA acts like the RJ's are vanquished, but that isn't true. The numbers tell the story. We need to get as many of these guys as we can on the list & capture that flying. Otherwise our 30% raise will be a 100% pay cut as they grow into our DC9 and MD88 flying.

I'm going to keep raising this alarm until someone takes notice and executes the appropriate action items.

Great post !! :beer:

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Fin you wife is going to kill you. Go do the yard work!

 

[Tracom]

You obviously havent read anything

Yeah, I know you really want this thing to pass...got it.

 

[Tracom]

Tracom:

Your vote is your vote and you are thinking it over. I'm not trying to convince you.

But consider the framework of the SLI and the non prejudicial agreements. If you don't have them, PM me and I'll walk you through finding them. It should be a fair SLI, which should preserve your status quo.

Displacements are unlikely unless the 767/757 fleet shrinks.

Fair enough. That it 'should' be a fair SLI is still a big "SHOULD". If I vote in favor, it will be b/c I feel that it is acceptable, not because it is the best we can hope for right now. To me, it is either acceptable or it isn't.

Problem is, that is hard to determine with so much left unknown. I would also feel much more comfortable if it was amendable in 2010 vice 2012.

We will see.

 

[PuffDriver]

If the SLI is going to go through and look the same no matter what the vote is, then I have even LESS reason to vote for it. We already have LOA 19. There is essentially nothing added by the JPWA. Do we somehow lose LOA 19 if the JPWA doesn't pass?

LOA 19 was acceptable because it meant small raises and separate lists. The JPWA is not acceptable. If I now have to accept the risk of an unfavorable SLI, then I need to be compensated more for that risk. Minimal raises locked in until the next down turn is not enough. I could very well be stuck with it anyway, but I don't have to vote for it.

I'm going to think it over some more over my next trip, but I am finding it less and less likely that I will vote in favor. If I could be assured of keeping my relative seniority, I'd most likely be in. But short of that, it's gonna take more than increasing overtime pay.

Frankly, I would rather be put on the street than lose seniority and face a displacement.

Ok, I think that I have heard enough. You are voting no, ok. So do it. In less than 6 months you will be right back where you are now, except that there will only be 1 arbitrator and a bunch of pissed off NWA pilots again.

They already had to eat crow once because of the "backstabbing" thing, which actually turned out to be a reach around--a good thing. Indeed, they got parity from day 1, and pretty much owe us. We knew it was going to happen. It HAD to happen. To have two lists under one holding company with differing pay scales would be DISASTROUS, and all incentive for the disadvantaged to "burn the house down, BOB, or whatever else their street gang minds can think up. How are they going to pay us back? Not on the SLI, that's for sure. They are going to want their cake and eat it too. In short, they aren't. You simply get to reming them from now on how wrong they all were, and how right we were.

This thing has it's best chance to end peacefully with a negotiated SLI, which comes from a yes vote from both groups. Either group voting no will be severely pounded by both the company, and eventually the arbitrator. I give arbitration in one form or the other a 99% chance. If you do it under ALPA merger policy, you turn this whole thing into a USAir/AWA bloodbath, and I don't believe either MEC will allow that.

The Delta pilots were always going to get the short end of the stick with regard to negotiating capital for the JPWA. The real potatoes come in the SLI, and every trump card is held by the Delta merger committee, short of a crooked arbitrator--or three.

 

[Superpilot92]

Yeah, I know you really want this thing to pass...got it.

i want it to pass mainly because it will allow our two pilot groups to completely integrate and become 1 solid unified pilot group. I dont want to see a USAIR mess here when it can be avoided. Both of our MECs are doing a great job to ensure that doesnt happen but voting this down gets the same results in the long run but further divides the groups when we are so close to bucking the trend. Doing so is a huge step forward in this industry. The idea is to look past your nose and look at the big picture that OUR MECs are showing us.

 

[Superpilot92]

Ok, I think that I have heard enough. You are voting no, ok. So do it. In less than 6 months you will be right back where you are now, except that there will only be 1 arbitrator and a bunch of pissed off NWA pilots again.

They already had to eat crow once because of the "backstabbing" thing, which actually turned out to be a reach around--a good thing. Indeed, they got parity from day 1, and pretty much owe us. We knew it was going to happen. It HAD to happen. To have two lists under one holding company with differing pay scales would be DISASTROUS, and all incentive for the disadvantaged to "burn the house down, BOB, or whatever else their street gang minds can think up. How are they going to pay us back? Not on the SLI, that's for sure. They are going to want their cake and eat it too. In short, they aren't. You simply get to reming them from now on how wrong they all were, and how right we were.

This thing has it's best chance to end peacefully with a negotiated SLI, which comes from a yes vote from both groups. Either group voting no will be severely pounded by both the company, and eventually the arbitrator. I give arbitration in one form or the other a 99% chance. If you do it under ALPA merger policy, you turn this whole thing into a USAir/AWA bloodbath, and I don't believe either MEC will allow that.

The Delta pilots were always going to get the short end of the stick with regard to negotiating capital for the JPWA. The real potatoes come in the SLI, and every trump card is held by the Delta merger committee, short of a crooked arbitrator--or three.

DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER!! Good post puff.

 

[123]

.. well the 9 has digital pressurization ..

AND a digital altimeter on the captain AND FO side now...

 

[Tracom]

It basically comes down to this. Too little pay for too long a time. Throw in the possibility of going backwards in seniority, and it looks even less appealing.

I completely understand the NW enthusiasm, but I would like to see them vote it down, too. I have no problem with parity, and no problem w/ a relative seniority list.

Yes, times are tough and oil is high. But I'm not going to vote for what I believe is a sub standard contract just because it is the easy thing to do or because there is no better offer right now. Just because it is the best offer, doesn't make it right.

I am still undecided, just trying to offer up a different view. Yes, the pay is better under the JPWA, but overall, it still isn't good. Not expecting contract 2000 (right now), but if there are not significant improvements soon, then this line of work is not worth it to me. Waiting until 2012 for the hope that the next offer will be reasonable is concerning.

Waiting until I'm 50 and too tired/bitter to walk is not an option either.

Just one opinion, and I may still vote yes. Just thinking out loud.

 

[123]

Frankly, I would rather be put on the street than lose seniority and face a displacement.

Wouldn't you be incurring the ultimate displacement if you were put on the street? Your statement doesn't make any sense....

 

[Tracom]

Wouldn't you be incurring the ultimate displacement if you were put on the street? Your statement doesn't make any sense....

No, I would rather be on the street than be commuting to reserve on the 9 in Detroit. It only doesn't make sense if you equate any employment with good employment.

I know lots of guys are just "happy to have a job", but I'm not one of them. I will go do something else before I start looking for crash pads at one of the NW bases.

Not trying to throw darts, just stating fact. Everyont has different priorities.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Is this before or after we get 8 777LRs next year, along with 10 more 737-700s, and a bunch of MD90s? Anything is possible I guess.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

They are single pilot A/C, back to the CRJ for you! New legislation/certification, along with open skies.
PBR

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

It's true that the pay rates provide parity.

But JPWA does NOT provide parity for the DC pension. There are some NWA guys who receive little TDC money, and have been shorted on the DB plan because of the freezing.

The JPWA ramps up DC money for NWA guys slowly (it's all back loaded). The junior guys have the TDC money, and the senior guys have the DB. Some NWA guys will have a hard time with this aspect.

The DAL training section stinks, and there are a few other stinkers in there as well, like only a $400 allowance for new uniforms.

With that said, it is still a yes for me, but don't think it was a home run for the NWA guys (I'll just have to save up for a hat).

Nu