Furloughees not Welcome?

[HA25]

Re: With over 1000 rjs and...

more to be ordered by USAirways and United, that will be the plane most pilots will retire flying making $70,000.

Talking to a Delta pilot and he is worried that the MD-80's will be gone in a couple of years due to the 700's and soon to be 900's flown by Comair and ASA. Smaller planes but more frequency. Look at what Delta is doing in DFW.

Delta has 300 more rjs on order or option for Comair and ASA pilots to fly.

We can only hope the Comair and ASA pilots keep up their good work in inching their contracts up to "major airline" quality..... I think over time, when they are making what they deserve on CRJ-700/900 (150,000/180,000K) and when they have a pention style retirement, Useless Air and Delta will have to re-think their business plan, and maybe they'll try to run an airline again, instead of a bank or walmart....

 

[stb]

Don't hold your breath....

Delta is changing their pension program along with the rest of the airlines. It will look like Southwest's and JetBlue's. The exact same as what the major airline pilots were laughing about.

With pilots lining up to take $17,000 a year jobs, flying 20 days, paying for training, paying for hotels during training, not getting paid for training etc. the future doesn't look promising.

The majors are not finished furloughing and will each furlough 100's (Except SW, JBLU and Cargo) more when the war with Iraq starts again.

What was once known as the commuter airlines will be the backbone of the industry.

I'm sure the foreign airlines will push for Caboge again (point to point service in the US) in the near future.

 

[hogdriver00]

Unions

First of all, if you look at my profile you'll see that I don't work for any airline, but I have been a student of the industry for many years.
Second, I agree that unions have a place in the industry in matters of safety and training. When I speak of unions I include all the unions in the industry (pilots, FA's, Machinists, etc.).
My position centers on the facts and the fact of the matter is that the industry is in a state of change and the change is monumental in its history.
Airlines with unions can and do make money. Look at SW and many of the so-called regionals. What do they have that the majors do not? They have control of their labor costs. What do they share with the majors? They all have no pricing power. The majors especially are hit hard by this fact. Fares remain low and that affects revenue. Why doesn't McDonalds charge $10 for a Big Mac? Because no one will buy them, other issues aside. Why don't the airlines raise fares? No one will pay them. That fact even effects SW.

but ALPA and APA have been nothing but professionals thru the good times and bad. Case study: United ALPA and their leadership in helping UAL recover from the economic troubles their management got them into with large debts structured such that they need boom times just to make their payments

I would have to disagree. Fortune Magazine did a story back in December in which they reported some of the details in the ALPA proposal for wage concessions. The six year plan had cuts in the first years but at the end of the six years had wages back above the levels of the current contract. As for the Machinists, did the bankruptcy court have to order them to accept the cuts?
I do agree that United's management is partly to blame. Management agreed to huge wage increases when it knew that there was no way to pay them without layoffs. They buckled under the pressure of the work slowdowns.

What kind of warped crack-logic is that?

Let's try to be professional here.

We can only hope the Comair and ASA pilots keep up their good work in inching their contracts up to "major airline" quality..... I think over time, when they are making what they deserve on CRJ-700/900 (150,000/180,000K) and when they have a pention style retirement, Useless Air and Delta will have to re-think their business plan, and maybe they'll try to run an airline again, instead of a bank or walmart

I agree that there needs to be more equality between the two but coupled with that there needs to be more portability between companies. There are too many barriers to movement from one company to another. Case in point: UAL is contracting but ACA for example is growing. If pilots had the ability to move without having to start at the bottom much of ACA's growth could have come for furloughed United pilots.

You are also correct about business plans. UAL didn't get the loan because they had no plan. That brings me back to my original point. The industry is changing. We need to change with it and not resist it. The change is going to happen. The question is whether the future is full of Eastern's or not.


Hog

 

[HA25]

The industry is changing, but not as much as the spin meisters want you to believe.

People are going to travel, and there is going to be more and more of them.... there is going to be more and more freight, and there is going to be more and more airline hiring in the future when this economy returns to health..

People always get panic(ie) when the economy is down and start to talk about fundamental change, then the good time return and all is forgotten...

Bush inherited this economy and is doing all he can to get it back on it's feet, when that happens (not if, but when), things will return to the status quo..

NOW!

The question is, do we as pilots, let our profession go down the drain, or do we hold the line and ride it out.... That is up to each and every individual here to decide on his own.

I for one, will not go back to making $20000 as a FO at a "airline"... I'd sooner go work at Starbucks and make coffee!


BTW..... who ever that was that said that Delta is changing their retirement.... it's not up to Delta to change anything.... there is a process called section 6, and that is where the changes will come, and I doubt they'll be what you're talking about.

 

[KDA or DEATH]

Certain Disadvantages

UAL,

First of all, Good Luck, and let's hope United pulls through and you are reinstated at least close to your current position and/or pay.....although that may be unlikely with the caveats that have been placed on UAL by the financiers who loaned the 1.5 bil to continue ops during bankruptcy.

You may, in fact, be disadvantaged in the hiring process for the following reasons:

1) Will you resign Seniority? If not, a prospective Employer may see you as a temporary employee who is not worth the time/effort/expense to train.

2) Having enjoyed a premiere, Industry Leading Contract...Will you be HAPPY working for anything less? Most likely SIGNIFICANTLY less as regards work rules, wages, schedules etc. Probably not, and rightfully so. But management wants HAPPY, shining faces.

3) Let's say I am an employer: JetBlue, AirTran, ATA, Alaska, Atlas, Polar etc... Why would I hire a furloughed UAL/UsAir pilot before a furloughed Vanguard Pilot (for example)?

The Vanguard Pilot may have comparable jet experience, views the job as a step up and is happy to be here. The United/UsAir furloughee (most likely) will feel slighted, as if he/she is doing something beneath him or her, and will be waiting to get back to their previous employer (God willing).

From a business management / economic point of view I think we all know the answer...Unfortunate and unfair, but reality.

Good Luck to you though, Sir or Ma'am...This is a strange and fickle business BUT:

"It's STILL good part-time work if you can get it!!"

YKW

 

[G4G5]

Re: Re: With over 1000 rjs and...

We can only hope the Comair and ASA pilots keep up their good work in inching their contracts up to "major airline" quality..... I think over time, when they are making what they deserve on CRJ-700/900 (150,000/180,000K) and when they have a pention style retirement, Useless Air and Delta will have to re-think their business plan, and maybe they'll try to run an airline again, instead of a bank or walmart....

Your pension plan information is incorrect. Delta has not changed any of the ALPA pilots pensions. What they did do was change to a cash out plan for all non union employees.

 

[HA25]

Re: Re: Re: With over 1000 rjs and...

Your pension plan information is incorrect. Delta has not changed any of the ALPA pilots pensions. What they did do was change to a cash out plan for all non union employees.

Q4G5, I think you inteded to quote someone else, as I never said anything about the pention at Delta, other than the fact that it will only change with the joint agreement between ALPA and DAL.

 

[hogdriver00]

Pretty weak

The industry is changing, but not as much as the spin meisters want you to believe.

Wake up!

Bush inherited this economy and is doing all he can to get it back on it's feet, when that happens (not if, but when), things will return to the status quo..

This is the status quo. Low cost high efficienty.

 

[HA25]

Re: Pretty weak

Wake up!





This is the status quo. Low cost high efficienty.

With all due respect to you, I am quite awake.. I understand more about this subject that you know, I hold a degree in Finance and an MBA from UCLA, I wasn't born yesterday.

The economy goes in cycles.... that is never gonna change and they tend to be 10 years in duration... We are now in a valley and nothing more...

The airline industry had gone thru many changes over the last 80 years and every time it comes out fine. Pilots wages have held steady for the past 40 years and they will hold steady for the next 40 unless people like you get their way.... This is why we have a union. I am a proud member and look forward to being a member for a long time to come...

Low cost / high efficiency is relative to competition, and if you think that SWA and JB are gonna replace American, NorthWest, Delta, and Continental than you haven't read their business plan.... they are a niche carrier and they have a focused business plan that can only overlap with that of the other major carriers... yes this overlap is a pain for the big airlines, but it's not enough to be their end..

The problem for the airlines isn't so much SWA and JB.... it's that there is one or two too many of them....

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

Opinions are like....

Hey!

A guy asks about a personal thing. Wants help or advice about getting a job. So throw him a bone.

No one cares what your un-expert opinion is. This isn't CNN, no one wants pundits and commentary.

So maybe you should stick to the topic. It isn't unions, pay, etc. It is can a furloughed UAL pilot get a decent flying job?



SO Fly767 what are your qualifications? You have 3,000 hours, but how much PIC in jets/turbo-prop? When did you get hired by UAL and how much time did you have then?

Have you considered overseas or cargo? Becoming an instructor at a flight school or a sim instructor?

Think long term. It is bad now, but in ~5 years it should recover. So do whatever you need to do to stay current. I used my time in the SWA pool getting my civilian instructor (CFI) rating. I am staying current teaching students to fly at the local community college. Hopefully you can find a decent job and a way to stay current as well.

I wonder if you are still reading this thread after all the lame posts.

In any case, Good Luck to you.

 

[fandango]

hiring of furloughees

I am an FO at ACA, did't hit 2nd year pay till april, and made just shy of 50K. I worked my but off trading, etc, and still had a decent number of days off. We are actively hiring, and have heard we don't ask you to give up your seniority number. Its a good company thats making a profit. Hard to argue with. I have met a few guys layed off from other carriers, and most have a great attitude. Some slipped through, and talk incessantly about how much better it was back at XYZ. They have there in house probs getting along like anywhere, but overall, I would recommend it,, if you feel you really need to stay in this godawful business!

 

[HA25]

Re: hiring of furloughees

I am an FO at ACA, did't hit 2nd year pay till april, and made just shy of 50K. I worked my but off trading, etc, and still had a decent number of days off. We are actively hiring, and have heard we don't ask you to give up your seniority number. Its a good company thats making a profit. Hard to argue with. I have met a few guys layed off from other carriers, and most have a great attitude. Some slipped through, and talk incessantly about how much better it was back at XYZ. They have there in house probs getting along like anywhere, but overall, I would recommend it,, if you feel you really need to stay in this godawful business!

$50K in year two as an FO??? Wow! I didn't make that as an ATR Captain!

 

[fandango]

money

Like I said. I worked my but off, live in domicile, pick stuff up and have a contract with lots of soft money.

 

[hogdriver00]

V70T5

Check your PM's

 

[CR7CAP]

ASA was hiring furloughees. I had 2 US Airways pilots, 2 UAL, and 1 Delta pilot in my class. None of them were required to give up their seniority numbers. Flying a CR200, -700 is not a bad gig until you get your recall letter. Although, I guess with the EMB-120 leaving I'm not quite sure how the hiring stands at this point.

 

[Caveman]

"Management has seen the willingness of some people to fly for nothing, so don't be suprised when management finds out that there are pilots out there that will fly a 767 for $80/hour."

They already found out. America West FO's work for less than $80/hour and National pilots used to. Yeah I know they fly 75's, but the comparison is close enough to be legitimate.

 

[HA25]

"Management has seen the willingness of some people to fly for nothing, so don't be suprised when management finds out that there are pilots out there that will fly a 767 for $80/hour."

They already found out. America West FO's work for less than $80/hour and National pilots used to. Yeah I know they fly 75's, but the comparison is close enough to be legitimate.

Amen to that bro..

That's why I'd like to see more ALPA involvement in issues like Freedumb airlines and the stigma that they are attaching to the pilots that will whore themselves out..

All be it, Amwest is not anywhere the same as Freedumb, as they are doing their best to improve their contract to their credit.

 

[flybrowntails]

BLZR you make a good and interesting point.

There are still many companies hiring, may not have UAL pay or schedule.

(sorry i can't agree with a national airline union)

 

[HA25]

BLZR
(sorry i can't agree with a national airline union)

Ok then, what do we do about $80/hr 767 Captains?

 

[dlredline]

furloughees

Dear YKW,

You said:

"Let's say I am an employer: JetBlue, AirTran, ATA, Alaska, Atlas, Polar etc... Why would I hire a furloughed UAL/UsAir pilot before a furloughed Vanguard Pilot (for example)?
The Vanguard Pilot may have comparable jet experience, views the job as a step up and is happy to be here. The United/UsAir furloughee (most likely) will feel slighted, as if he/she is doing something beneath him or her, and will be waiting to get back to their previous employer (God willing)."

As a U furloughee with 15 years juniority there, you obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about. I have no illusion of returning to what's left of USAirways and (like most other furloughees) would rather work for a quality firm with a business plan for the future (and some semblence of retirement, 401k,etc., which U will not have shortly). I don't feel "slighted", but rather fortunate for the quality experience I gained and can now provide to another company. Working for JetBlue or SW is defintely not "beneath" any of us (I would personally consider it honorable work and a privledge to perform), and to say so speaks volumes to the ignorance one has to the views shared by those furloughed from a "major" airline.

dl