Furloughed mainline pilots entitled to left seat of their regional carriers?

[Flyer1015]

Originally Posted by andyd
And YES I did go to GIA academy, paid for it and cut at least 2 years off the time it took me to get to a regional. ZERO regrets and no apologies. If it weren't for GIA I wouldn't be at Delta now. I'd highly recommend GIA to anyone considering a career change or fresh out of college. Not everyone is cut out to be a CFI nor should they be. I figure that the $24,000 I paid for GIA will have added easily $250,000 in career earnings and $400,000 in my 401K balance at retirement age. Why would I trade that for 2 years of students trying to kill me and get me violated working 6 days a week? Screw that.

LOL! You gotta love it.

 

[Flyer1015]

On the Great Lakes thread, our friend Andy here explains the process he went through....



That's the attitude we are dealing with here....

JoeMerchant - 1
Andyd - 0

 

[Salukipilot4590]

...and some people got mad at those 20 year old wunderkidz with their sense of entitlement...

Ugh...

GIMME GIMME GIMME!

 

[Soverytired]

Anyone who doesn't like this arrangement should go work for an actual airline, instead of a contracted lift company that incorporates this into their lift contracts.

You knew (or should have) that this could happen when you took the job at a contract lift provider. This is one reason many pilots ultimately strive to work for actual airlines.

 

[Smarta$$]

Anyone who doesn't like this arrangement should go work for an actual airline, instead of a contracted lift company that incorporates this into their lift contracts.

You knew (or should have) that this could happen when you took the job at a contract lift provider. This is one reason many pilots ultimately strive to work for actual airlines.

Very condiscending.

 

[Captain Morgan]

What if some of us like working for "contracted lift" companies? I don't want to go anywhere else. I wish I could start and retire in a turboprop like guys in the 80's because that's what I am into. It's not my fault that mainline was too good to fly a 37-50 seat jet. They don't want them, we got'em. Just as it was said before, don't be so condicending. You assume everybody wants a mainline job when maybe they don't. Maybe they need the time to go corporate or to a fractional and you can get a job quicker at a regional than practically anywhere else.

CM

 

[Smarta$$]

Again, No F'n way. Part of the decision to leave your seniority behind and go to major is the gamble of a possible furlough. That is just part of the job change. You weigh the possibilty of being furlough foder against the better pay and bennies of the new job. You can not have your cake and eat it too.

You made the choice to gamble in the face of an economic recession and record oil prices. Oil has been breaking records for three years! You gambled by going to a big airline. It was your gamble, you knew the risks and it is no one elses responcibility to give up their seniority to bail you out.

If you don't like it, then you need only look up your own seniority list and tell the A-holes that voted away your jobs and your scope for their own short sighted personal gain.

If your shrinking comes at the gain of a regional partner, so be it. I don't like it either. But again, look up your own seniority list to assign blame where it is deserved. You took the job KNOWING what and how your scope was writen. You know that capacity cuts at mainline could contractually be followed by connection growth. It sucks. It is the world we have all been handed by the gummers at the big six carriers. But again, nothing has changed since most of the future furloughs were newly hired at their new dream job. You knew the risks.

Like someone else said above. If mainline were to grow and shrink a connection carrier, those furloughed connection pilots would not be entitled to growth seats at the company that caused their furlough. It has to work both ways.

Sorry, you will have to come to the bottom of our seniority list, just the same as you would make us do. Or find a non-aviation job during your furlough.

 

[rhino3040]

We all gotta go somewhere not the left seat of a regional airplane

 

[MJ42]

Again, No F'n way. Part of the decision to leave your seniority behind and go to major is the gamble of a possible furlough. That is just part of the job change. You weigh the possibilty of being furlough foder against the better pay and bennies of the new job. You can not have your cake and eat it too.

You made the choice to gamble in the face of an economic recession and record oil prices. Oil has been breaking records for three years! You gambled by going to a big airline. It was your gamble, you knew the risks and it is no one elses responcibility to give up their seniority to bail you out.

If you don't like it, then you need only look up your own seniority list and tell the A-holes that voted away your jobs and your scope for their own short sighted personal gain.

If your shrinking comes at the gain of a regional partner, so be it. I don't like it either. But again, look up your own seniority list to assign blame where it is deserved. You took the job KNOWING what and how your scope was writen. You know that capacity cuts at mainline could contractually be followed by connection growth. It sucks. It is the world we have all been handed by the gummers at the big six carriers. But again, nothing has changed since most of the future furloughs were newly hired at their new dream job. You knew the risks.

Like someone else said above. If mainline were to grow and shrink a connection carrier, those furloughed connection pilots would not be entitled to growth seats at the company that caused their furlough. It has to work both ways.

Sorry, you will have to come to the bottom of our seniority list, just the same as you would make us do. Or find a non-aviation job during your furlough.

As a mainline pilot, I agree with your post. We chose to leave our last job and took a risk. I don't want to see regionals grow, especially at the expense of mainline jobs, because that hurts everyone. Even if a major is not your career goal, a shift of flying from a major to regional hurts the masses.

If NWA furloughs, I stand to benefit from the flow down. I don't want to gain at the expense of a Compass pilot, but this is different from my above statement. Everyone knew this was a possibility and chose to go to NWA or Compass anyway. I hope there are flow-ups instead of going backwards!

FWIW, I don't think NWA/DAL will furlough. I may be too optimistic but, I hope for everyones sake I'm correct. NWA put out a memo about no furloughs expected. Not that I trust that memo to be truthful, however, it will make DOJ approval harder if furloughs are announced. Also, in the new TA there is a "no furlough" clause (we'll see if it works???).


Flyer 1015...what do you mean by JM-1, andyd-0? You do know JM was a PFT'er also? Why are the most vocal posters(JM, andyd and PCL128 etc...) on morality in this industry the same pilots who did their part to violate their (new found) code of ethical behavior they preach about? Where were their ethics and morals as they handed over that $10K check to buy a job? Kinda ironic, huh?

 

[Stifler's Mom]

My interview at GIA was 30 minutes and consisted of 1 question

Let me guess...."what does your bank account look like?"

 

[Soverytired]

What if some of us like working for "contracted lift" companies? I don't want to go anywhere else. I wish I could start and retire in a turboprop like guys in the 80's because that's what I am into. It's not my fault that mainline was too good to fly a 37-50 seat jet. They don't want them, we got'em. Just as it was said before, don't be so condicending. You assume everybody wants a mainline job when maybe they don't. Maybe they need the time to go corporate or to a fractional and you can get a job quicker at a regional than practically anywhere else.

CM

It was not my intent to be condescending. In point of fact, I would have written much the same as you 5 years into my first regional "airline" job as you have. Why not stay? Why not retire here? Big fish in a small pond and all that, and heck, the money was more than good enough for me.

Make no mistake: the difference between an actual airline and a contract lift provider is HUGE. I'm not talking salary, or work rules, or unions, etc. I'm talking about long term job security and viability. A contracted lift company cannot determine its own destiny, really.

Its only as good as its next contract, which are highly competitive and tend to restrict long term profitability at the expense of short-term security. In exchange, they have to agree to things that are not good for you, the pilot. They might have a guarnteed profit (short term), but will never truly make big $$$ . . . so neither will you, either $$-wise or QOL-wise. A real airline might not want your services in the future (likely in today's market ), or they might impose conditions that are grossly unfair to the line pilot (flow-back).

Contract lift is what it is. But generally speaking, its not a very good place to plan on hanging ones hat for the next 25 years.

Nor would I hesitate to "flow-back" if the need arose. In this instance, your company agreed as terms of said contract to accept this. It is a benefit negotiated (dictated to?) by an actual airline to a contracted party. It was done for the benefit of a career airline pilot, not a short-term contracted pilot. It sucks for the contract pilot, but he knew (or should have known) going in that this was what he was getting into.

 

[PCL_128]

It was not my intent to be condescending. In point of fact, I would have written much the same as you 5 years into my first regional "airline" job as you have. Why not stay? Why not retire here? Big fish in a small pond and all that, and heck, the money was more than good enough for me.

Make no mistake: the difference between an actual airline and a contract lift provider is HUGE. I'm not talking salary, or work rules, or unions, etc. I'm talking about long term job security and viability. A contracted lift company cannot determine its own destiny, really.

Its only as good as its next contract, which are highly competitive and tend to restrict long term profitability at the expense of short-term security. In exchange, they have to agree to things that are not good for you, the pilot. They might have a guarnteed profit (short term), but will never truly make big $$$ . . . so neither will you, either $$-wise or QOL-wise. A real airline might not want your services in the future (likely in today's market ), or they might impose conditions that are grossly unfair to the line pilot (flow-back).

Contract lift is what it is. But generally speaking, its not a very good place to plan on hanging ones hat for the next 25 years.

Nor would I hesitate to "flow-back" if the need arose. In this instance, your company agreed as terms of said contract to accept this. It is a benefit negotiated (dictated to?) by an actual airline to a contracted party. It was done for the benefit of a career airline pilot, not a short-term contracted pilot. It sucks for the contract pilot, but he knew (or should have known) going in that this was what he was getting into.

Well said!

 

[Sonny Crockett]

It was not my intent to be condescending. In point of fact, I would have written much the same as you 5 years into my first regional "airline" job as you have. Why not stay? Why not retire here? Big fish in a small pond and all that, and heck, the money was more than good enough for me.

Make no mistake: the difference between an actual airline and a contract lift provider is HUGE. I'm not talking salary, or work rules, or unions, etc. I'm talking about long term job security and viability. A contracted lift company cannot determine its own destiny, really.

Its only as good as its next contract, which are highly competitive and tend to restrict long term profitability at the expense of short-term security. In exchange, they have to agree to things that are not good for you, the pilot. They might have a guarnteed profit (short term), but will never truly make big $$$ . . . so neither will you, either $$-wise or QOL-wise. A real airline might not want your services in the future (likely in today's market ), or they might impose conditions that are grossly unfair to the line pilot (flow-back).

Contract lift is what it is. But generally speaking, its not a very good place to plan on hanging ones hat for the next 25 years.

Nor would I hesitate to "flow-back" if the need arose. In this instance, your company agreed as terms of said contract to accept this. It is a benefit negotiated (dictated to?) by an actual airline to a contracted party. It was done for the benefit of a career airline pilot, not a short-term contracted pilot. It sucks for the contract pilot, but he knew (or should have known) going in that this was what he was getting into.

SPOT ON!

 

[buscap]

Ya know...

I've always liked the way things have stood here at ASA. We've never had a flow up or flow down. Everyone who wanted to make a move up or down, did so at the mercy of seniority. And we always treated Dl furloughs as well as we could.

I have flown with DL furloughs as my Capatin and then as my FO. No problem. Every single one of them were grateful for the job and benefits at ASA. A job which their pilot group repeatedly negotiated off Delta property.

I just don't see a need to skull-screw the seniortiy system we have all come to 'love".

 

[Captain Morgan]

It was not my intent to be condescending. In point of fact, I would have written much the same as you 5 years into my first regional "airline" job as you have. Why not stay? Why not retire here? Big fish in a small pond and all that, and heck, the money was more than good enough for me.

Make no mistake: the difference between an actual airline and a contract lift provider is HUGE. I'm not talking salary, or work rules, or unions, etc. I'm talking about long term job security and viability. A contracted lift company cannot determine its own destiny, really.

Its only as good as its next contract, which are highly competitive and tend to restrict long term profitability at the expense of short-term security. In exchange, they have to agree to things that are not good for you, the pilot. They might have a guarnteed profit (short term), but will never truly make big $$$ . . . so neither will you, either $$-wise or QOL-wise. A real airline might not want your services in the future (likely in today's market ), or they might impose conditions that are grossly unfair to the line pilot (flow-back).

Contract lift is what it is. But generally speaking, its not a very good place to plan on hanging ones hat for the next 25 years.

Nor would I hesitate to "flow-back" if the need arose. In this instance, your company agreed as terms of said contract to accept this. It is a benefit negotiated (dictated to?) by an actual airline to a contracted party. It was done for the benefit of a career airline pilot, not a short-term contracted pilot. It sucks for the contract pilot, but he knew (or should have known) going in that this was what he was getting into.

I'll buy that for a dollar. However what I was referring to was that there are people who like flying the smaller aircraft on shorter legs to podunk airports. I am one of these people and I know it's hard to believe but I grew up around these airplanes and airports and the majors and larger aircraft just don't appeal to me all that much. I live a modest life that I'm happy with and in my little corner of the world. I'm not trying to belittle everyone for going to a major or anything like that. I can certainly appreciate the zeal for moving up the career ladder. But for some of us our favorite thing is piloting a B1900 or Brasilia or ERJ and we accept everything that goes with it. I just interjected my thought into this topic because it seems everyone thinks that everyone wants to go fly a 737 and above. Not always the case. I do wish luck to those that want it though. Good luck to us all in whatever we want!

 

[PCL_128]

I'll buy that for a dollar. However what I was referring to was that there are people who like flying the smaller aircraft on shorter legs to podunk airports. I am one of these people and I know it's hard to believe but I grew up around these airplanes and airports and the majors and larger aircraft just don't appeal to me all that much. I live a modest life that I'm happy with and in my little corner of the world. I'm not trying to belittle everyone for going to a major or anything like that. I can certainly appreciate the zeal for moving up the career ladder. But for some of us our favorite thing is piloting a B1900 or Brasilia or ERJ and we accept everything that goes with it. I just interjected my thought into this topic because it seems everyone thinks that everyone wants to go fly a 737 and above. Not always the case. I do wish luck to those that want it though. Good luck to us all in whatever we want!

I have no problem with guys like you. My problem is with guys like JoeyMerchant who want to stay at the regionals, but aren't happy just flying small airplanes to small airports. They want to steal the big airplanes from the majors. If it was up to Joey, ASA would be able to "bid" on Delta's 767 flying and start flying to Paris as a contractor.

 

[outtahere]

Thats alright pcl when Airtranny fourloughs your high and mighty ass we will let you come to work at ASA! You will probably be in for quite a shock when you open your dumbass mouth and get a boot shoved up your ass, but you will learn. There is nobody getting left seats at ASA, I don't care if we grow by 100 planes at Delta pilots expence. You want a job, apply and good luck. If you want the left seat you will have to try and convince our MEC and the rest of the membership that it is good for them. Good luck with that!! PCL you are a PFT scumbag that found ALPA religion and now want all of your prior sins forgiven. Well sorry for your luck, but this ain't church and you will always be a PFT scumbag!!!!

 

[PCL_128]

Thats alright pcl when Airtranny fourloughs your high and mighty ass we will let you come to work at ASA! You will probably be in for quite a shock when you open your dumbass mouth and get a boot shoved up your ass, but you will learn. There is nobody getting left seats at ASA, I don't care if we grow by 100 planes at Delta pilots expence. You want a job, apply and good luck. If you want the left seat you will have to try and convince our MEC and the rest of the membership that it is good for them. Good luck with that!! PCL you are a PFT scumbag that found ALPA religion and now want all of your prior sins forgiven. Well sorry for your luck, but this ain't church and you will always be a PFT scumbag!!!!

Unlikely that I'll be getting furloughed, little man. But thanks for the job offer. I'm not interested.

 

[MJ42]

Unlikely that I'll be getting furloughed, little man. But thanks for the job offer. I'm not interested.

I don't blame you, who wants to make a lateral move?

 

[outtahere]

Well here's to hoping, you sound like you could use a good sound dose of reallity. MJ42, that was good!

 

[PCL_128]

I don't blame you, who wants to make a lateral move?

NWA DC-9 driver, huh?

12 year AirTran 717 (DC-9) CA - $153/hr
12 year NWA DC-9 CA - $126/hr

If you'd like to move up the ladder, you can always apply here. :laugh:

 

[MJ42]

NWA DC-9 driver, huh?

12 year AirTran 717 (DC-9) CA - $153/hr
12 year NWA DC-9 CA - $126/hr

If you'd like to move up the ladder, you can always apply here. :laugh:

Hired there...turned it down.

Just wait....we'll see who laughs at the new joint payscale.

BTW what's that come out to per hour when you subtract your PFT?

 

[PCL_128]

Just wait....we'll see who laughs at the new joint payscale.

Already seen it: $145/hr. Still $8/hr less. :laugh:

 

[MJ42]

Already seen it: $145/hr. Still $8/hr less. :laugh:

You've seen wrong...if you have access to it then tell me what it is on: 1/1/09, 1/1/10, 1/1/11, 1/1/12?

 

[PCL_128]

You've seen wrong...if you have access to it then tell me what it is on: 1/1/09, 1/1/10, 1/1/11, 1/1/12?

Don't have the numbers past 1/1/09 in front of me. I believe it was 4% increases, if I remember right.

 

[MJ42]

Don't have the numbers past 1/1/09 in front of me. I believe it was 4% increases, if I remember right.

Exactly! :laugh:

 

[Freight Dog]

Here's an idea:

If you lost your job at an ALPA carrier - you go to any regional and have ALPA make up the difference between first and second year FO pay so the furloughee can at least survive/make better cash than unemployment. You start as a bottom-of-the-list FO for bidding purposes.

Or.... if you have a "flow-back" option, you go to the bottom of the list as an FO and get paid years of service from the carrier from which you are coming from. In other words, if you are a 2nd year NWA FO, you go to the bottom of the list for bidding purposes, but make 2nd year FO pay.

But in any case, it's not right for any mainline guy to go back to regionals and displace anyone already there.

 

[outtahere]

NWA DC-9 driver, huh?

12 year AirTran 717 (DC-9) CA - $153/hr
12 year NWA DC-9 CA - $126/hr

If you'd like to move up the ladder, you can always apply here. :laugh:

And uhhh what are you making????

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Regional Pilot : You want our jobs?
Mainline Pilot : I think I'm entitled.
Regional Pilot : You want our jobs?
Mainline Pilot : I want the left seat!
Regional Pilot : You can't handle our payrates!

Son, we work at a lift provider that has no work rules, and those work rules have to be flown by men at low pay. Whose gonna do it? You, Mr. Deltoid? You, Marvin Mainliner? I have more fatigue here than you could possibly fathom. You weep for your gutted CBA, and you curse the regionals. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That my CBA, while tragic, probably provides jobs. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, provides jobs. I know deep down in places you don’t talk about on 20 hour layovers, you don't want me on reduced rest, you need me on reduced rest. We use words like carpet dance, ALPA sucks, maybe one day. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent flying fatigued. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a prima donna who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very contract lift I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a turboprop manual and do a real V1 cut. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

Mainline Pilot: Did you pay for training?
Regional Pilot : I did the job I was hired to do!
Mainline Pilot: Did you go to Gulfstream International!
Regional Pilot : Your god damn right I did!

 

[centralpilot]

Regional Pilot : You want our jobs?
Mainline Pilot : I think I'm entitled.
Regional Pilot : You want our jobs?
Mainline Pilot : I want the left seat!
Regional Pilot : You can't handle our payrates!

Son, we work at a lift provider that has no work rules, and those work rules have to be flown by men at low pay. Whose gonna do it? You, Mr. Deltoid? You, Marvin Mainliner? I have more fatigue here than you could possibly fathom. You weep for your gutted CBA, and you curse the regionals. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That my CBA, while tragic, probably provides jobs. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, provides jobs. I know deep down in places you don’t talk about on 20 hour layovers, you don't want me on reduced rest, you need me on reduced rest. We use words like carpet dance, ALPA sucks, maybe one day. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent flying fatigued. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a prima donna who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very contract lift I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a turboprop manual and do a real V1 cut. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

Mainline Pilot: Did you pay for training?
Regional Pilot : I did the job I was hired to do!
Mainline Pilot: Did you go to Gulfstream International!
Regional Pilot : Your god damn right I did!

Nice! :laugh: