Furloughed mainline pilots entitled to left seat of their regional carriers?

[PCL_128]

Isn't he flying the stuff the DALPA didn't/doesn't want and specifically approves of in it's PWA? His seat is custom made by DALPA for him and until DALPA convices (i.e. uses massive bargining capital) management to bring it back to mainline, it's his seat at his airline until that happens. Is his seat "secure"? None of our seats are when oil and the economy are it stupid mode.

No, DALPA merely allows DAL to outsource the flying. DALPA scope doesn't assign the flying to Joey's airline. DAL gets to decide that on their own, per the PWA, so Joey owns no flying. He gets whatever scraps the mainline guys and management decide to toss to him. The only flying that he owns is EV code. Since that doesn't exist anymore, he owns nothing.

 

[CFIT]

I don't work at a legacy, and I'm probably not going to get furloughed from my major. But I do have some common sense, and common sense dictates that you shouldn't get the benefits of growth while the mainline pilots get furloughed as their real airline shrinks. You're only growing because they are shrinking. Sorry, but you don't deserve advancement at their expense.

First of all, growth at my airline will do nothing for me. Nobody forced them to go to United, if they get somebody to fly their code then it's managements fault. What if they contracted AirTran for lift would you give yor upgrade away? I know you'll say yes but deep down you wont and say you voted for it.

The pilots do not own the flying, the company does. They can do with it what they want as long as any contract provisions aren't broken, from what I can see they havn't.

You go to a airline you roll the dice.

 

[JoeMerchant]

No, DALPA merely allows DAL to outsource the flying. DALPA scope doesn't assign the flying to Joey's airline. DAL gets to decide that on their own, per the PWA, so Joey owns no flying. He gets whatever scraps the mainline guys and management decide to toss to him. The only flying that he owns is EV code. Since that doesn't exist anymore, he owns nothing.

There you have it folks....That is the position of ALPA...Is it any wonder Skywest keeps voting ALPA down...

Hard to get support for a union that doesn't believe your job belongs to you and instead belongs to other union members who fly the "real" airplanes...

Keep it up PCL....you are making a fine spokesperson for ALPA...

 

[79%N1]

Dont worry guys, this time the regionals won't be growing either. Almost all the mainline partners have announced that they are trimming their regional partners. Look at Eagle, possibly Comair, Mesa, etc...Who knows about the NWA regionals. I have heard the SH has recently said that ASA will be flying 91 jets for Delta come fall. That is quite a reduction, more if you count the ATR's. I don't think there will be regional growth or J4J this time around. Everybody will feel this pain.

 

[PCL_128]

First of all, growth at my airline will do nothing for me.

Unless you're number 1 on the seniority list, growth always helps you. It's just a matter of to what degree.

What if they contracted AirTran for lift would you give yor upgrade away?

AirTran doesn't do "contracted lift." This is a real airline, not a subcontractor. But as an MEC member at PCL, I would have agreed wholeheartedly with allowing any growth slots to go to furloughed NWA pilots. I'm always a supporter of flowthrough/flowback agreements also.

The pilots do not own the flying, the company does.

The scope clause of every union contract begs to differ. But, of course, you anti-union zealots wouldn't know anything about that.

 

[PCL_128]

There you have it folks....That is the position of ALPA

No it isn't. That's the position of PCL_128. In case you've forgotten, Short Bus, I haven't been an ALPA rep in some time, and even when I did hold a position, I didn't speak for ALPA. I only speak for myself.

 

[JoeMerchant]

No it isn't. That's the position of PCL_128. In case you've forgotten, Short Bus, I haven't been an ALPA rep in some time, and even when I did hold a position, I didn't speak for ALPA. I only speak for myself.

Your positions mirror those of ALPA's...You are two peas in a pod....

PCL_128 speaks from the book of Herndon.....

Stand proud man....You are a great ALPA spokesperson...Keep it up.....:laugh:

 

[CFIT]

Unless you're number 1 on the seniority list, growth always helps you. It's just a matter of to what degree.



AirTran doesn't do "contracted lift." This is a real airline, not a subcontractor. But as an MEC member at PCL, I would have agreed wholeheartedly with allowing any growth slots to go to furloughed NWA pilots. I'm always a supporter of flowthrough/flowback agreements also.



The scope clause of every union contract begs to differ. But, of course, you anti-union zealots wouldn't know anything about that.

That's just it there is no flowthrough/flowback provision and there never will be, SkyWest is there own airline providing lift for whatever code that wants it.

If the lift truly belongs to the pilots, via their CBA, then they can either, greive it or agree to not have the flying done at all. But they don't, it's managements flying and they can have anyone they want to do it.

If the scope clause is being breached then there is an aurgument, but we both know it not. If they want it in the next contract fine. But to come out with some BS cry that it is theirs is falling on deaf ears.

Like I said before, if it comes down to getting new planes and circumventing seniority, they can get Mesa to do it.

They're ALPO right, PFT 128?

 

[imacdog]

I can only speak for UAL, but the 2172 pilots FURLOUGHED the last go around are much more VOCAL about how they are gonna be treated. If UAX "Brand X" does'nt allow our guys some left seat jobs then "Brand X" aint getting the new "Growth Jets"

Too bad, so sad. Let me guess, if mainline favors cutting regional routes and increasing more profitable mainline flying, you are going to fight to bring on those displaced regional pilots to mainline? Riiiiiight, thought so. Regionals are "part of the family" only when it benefits mainline pilots, otherwise they can get lost. Sound like your inner voice there?

 

[Sonny Crockett]

Too bad, so sad. Let me guess, if mainline favors cutting regional routes and increasing more profitable mainline flying, you are going to fight to bring on those displaced regional pilots to mainline? Riiiiiight, thought so. Regionals are "part of the family" only when it benefits mainline pilots, otherwise they can get lost. Sound like your inner voice there?

I never said anything like that.

I prefer UAL flies the E-190 and I know that 95% of the UAL pilot group feels the same way. I am not getting furloughed--but I want to see OUR pilots who might get furloughed NOT get outsourced. GET THE PICTURE?

I wasn't at UAL in 1995 when they voted on the RJ's--I was an Express guy at the time myself, and I ALWAYS felt that ANY jet should be flown by UAL pilots.- I still feel that way.

 

[relief tube]

If there's no associated regional growth, then no, seeing theyve never given us preference.

BUT if mainline shrinking comes with regional growth then YES, Im for it. Any 23 year old regional FO that wants a quicker upgrade so some 45 yr old with 3 ids can sit behind him on the list, thats f-ing wrong and that regional dude needs to think about someone other than himself.

This job combines 0 job security with complete financial and QOL disaster in the even of a furlough. There needs to be some sort of lifeline out there.

 

[SKYWRJGUY]

Dumb post alert:

"Any 23 year old regional FO that wants a quicker upgrade so some 45 yr old with 3 ids can sit behind him on the list, thats f-ing wrong and that regional dude needs to think about someone other than himself"

Risk, reward. All pilots do is think about themselves first, and their airline collectively. All other are tangential players, and while I feel bad for the 45 y/o guy (actually, I'm closer to that than 23) with 3 kids, the airline industry is not Social Security. Risk, reward.

 

[Poahi]

If UAX "Brand X" does'nt allow our guys some left seat jobs then "Brand X" aint getting the new "Growth Jets"

My guess is that the regional pilots would politely decline if it were up to them. Ironically, it isn't up to the pilots anyway, so I suppose this thread is purely academic.

I'm for one list too, but I have to ask: If Mainline pilots didn't make the decision to park the 737's, how are they going to pull the regional growth if they don't get what they want?

Waiting until there is a disaster isn't a good plan for negotiating flow throughs/backs. I remember hearing from many of the NWA pilots that they didn't want many of the regional pilots they knew anywhere near them but for years, they teased the regionals with flow up talk. It never happened. Now, a regional pilot who fears for his job now is supposed to forego an upgrade or furlough protection out of one sided compassion? It's going to be a tough sell.

Last round is was preferential hiring, let's see what happens this time....

 

[ATRCA]

I keep hearing that mainline pilots are pushing for this to happen but it seems unlikely to me. Anyone else have an opinion or information about this subject?

Of course we deserve it..............why...??

Because we are BETTER THAN YOU!!

Give me a F%&king break. What a stupid thread. Guys get furloughed, they hit the street. Thats how it works, everyone knows it. Unless of course you have one of those fancy Flow-thru-back agreements. If you have that, your FKed!

 

[ATRCA]

Dont worry guys, this time the regionals won't be growing either. Almost all the mainline partners have announced that they are trimming their regional partners. Look at Eagle, possibly Comair, Mesa, etc...Who knows about the NWA regionals. I have heard the SH has recently said that ASA will be flying 91 jets for Delta come fall. That is quite a reduction, more if you count the ATR's. I don't think there will be regional growth or J4J this time around. Everybody will feel this pain.

Thats the truth. This will be different than 9/11. The $hit will slide downhill as well.

 

[andyd]

No double standards....if mainline are good enough to be thrown into the left seat of an RJ, then an RJ Captain is good enough to assume a possition on a mainline seniority list.

Not quite true. Most regionals don't require a BA, my interview at PCL was a total joke, 20 minutes bs'ing with the CP. My interview at GIA was 30 minutes and consisted of 1 question, the rest was bs'ing.....and they don't require a degree. My interview at DAL was 2 days, written test, psych test, psych interview, physical and 3rd party background check.

You want a mainline job.......go through the process the rest of us did. In the meantime your job isn't in jeopardy unless the carrier you work for is wholly owned and has a flow up/down agreement already in place. Word is that the JPWA just signed with DAL/NWA has such an agreement with Compass/Mesaba...part of the price of working for a wholly owned. If you work there then you knew about it before you accepted the job, along with the possibility of flowing up....and the danger of flow downs. If you worked at Mesaba before this agreement was in place, then in all likely hood you are a career Mesaba driver and are so senior that any flowdowns will not affect you in any way, shape or form.

 

[ATRCA]

Not quite true. Most regionals don't require a BA, my interview at PCL was a total joke, 20 minutes bs'ing with the CP. My interview at GIA was 30 minutes and consisted of 1 question, the rest was bs'ing.....and they don't require a degree. My interview at DAL was 2 days, written test, psych test, psych interview, physical and 3rd party background check.

You want a mainline job.......go through the process the rest of us did. In the meantime your job isn't in jeopardy unless the carrier you work for is wholly owned and has a flow up/down agreement already in place. Word is that the JPWA just signed with DAL/NWA has such an agreement with Compass/Mesaba...part of the price of working for a wholly owned. If you work there then you knew about it before you accepted the job, along with the possibility of flowing up....and the danger of flow downs. If you worked at Mesaba before this agreement was in place, then in all likely hood you are a career Mesaba driver and are so senior that any flowdowns will not affect you in any way, shape or form.

I agree with your post for the most part but I can honestly say that my interview at CoEx in 2000 was far more difficult than my interview at CAL. I also interviewed at B6 in 04 and I thought their process was very thorough.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I never said anything like that.

I prefer UAL flies the E-190 and I know that 95% of the UAL pilot group feels the same way. I am not getting furloughed--but I want to see OUR pilots who might get furloughed NOT get outsourced. GET THE PICTURE?

I wasn't at UAL in 1995 when they voted on the RJ's--I was an Express guy at the time myself, and I ALWAYS felt that ANY jet should be flown by UAL pilots.- I still feel that way.

If Eastern and others hadn't started this mess with separate regional flying we wouldn't be having this debate today and I believe things would be better...But that isn't what happened....Mainline egos didn't want to fly Beech 99s, Metros, and Bandits...Pride goeth before the fall.....

If you get the E190s at your property then you can staff them the way you want....If the E190s come to our property....We will staff them the way we want.....Fair enough?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Not quite true. Most regionals don't require a BA, my interview at PCL was a total joke, 20 minutes bs'ing with the CP. My interview at GIA was 30 minutes and consisted of 1 question, the rest was bs'ing.....and they don't require a degree. My interview at DAL was 2 days, written test, psych test, psych interview, physical and 3rd party background check.

Here we go with the essence of why there will never be a single list....Mainline pilots think they are better....At least Andy is honest...

1. I have one of those fancy 4 year college degrees and it doesn't really mean squat....I had a hell of a good time...But it didn't make me a better pilot...College is way over rated....Fun but largely a waste of time and money....

2. Some of the best guys and pilots I know flunked the stupid Delta psych. test while other strange folks made it through....Hell General Lee proves that with every post..

3. So you're another GIA and PCL vet...just like PCL_128.....imagine that.....I'm amazed at what elitist snobs you guys can be coming from carriers that by your own admission don't require much....I know you're at Delta now...The best of the best

You want a mainline job.......go through the process the rest of us did. In the meantime your job isn't in jeopardy unless the carrier you work for is wholly owned and has a flow up/down agreement already in place. Word is that the JPWA just signed with DAL/NWA has such an agreement with Compass/Mesaba...part of the price of working for a wholly owned. If you work there then you knew about it before you accepted the job, along with the possibility of flowing up....and the danger of flow downs. If you worked at Mesaba before this agreement was in place, then in all likely hood you are a career Mesaba driver and are so senior that any flowdowns will not affect you in any way, shape or form.

I don't want a "mainline" job....I have a good one now.....If furloughed mainline pilots want one of these peon regional jobs....They can apply and start over at the bottom again....If they have the superior attitude you have...I say don't hire them....

Save your flowthrough/flowback....we aren't interested....

 

[JoeMerchant]

You want a mainline job.......go through the process the rest of us did.

On the Great Lakes thread, our friend Andy here explains the process he went through....

And YES I did go to GIA academy, paid for it and cut at least 2 years off the time it took me to get to a regional. ZERO regrets and no apologies. If it weren't for GIA I wouldn't be at Delta now. I'd highly recommend GIA to anyone considering a career change or fresh out of college. Not everyone is cut out to be a CFI nor should they be. I figure that the $24,000 I paid for GIA will have added easily $250,000 in career earnings and $400,000 in my 401K balance at retirement age. Why would I trade that for 2 years of students trying to kill me and get me violated working 6 days a week? Screw that.

That's the attitude we are dealing with here....