Furloughed mainline pilots entitled to left seat of their regional carriers?

[chitownflyer]

As if mainline pilots would ever be willing to help us at the regionals out.

If they should be allowed to "flow back" to the regionals, the regional pilots should be able to "flow up" to mainline. Simple as that.

Don't forget who gave up the scope clause.

 

[PCL_128]

Unless your are getting ready to upgrade

This is about new growth airplanes that wouldn't even be coming if it weren't for mainline shrinking. When UAL released the plans for shrinking the mainline fleet, they simultaneously announced an increase of 10%-12% for UAL Express. You're growing at the expense of mainline, and those planes wouldn't even be coming to you if it weren't for the mainline pilots having to suffer a furlough. You shouldn't be entitled to those upgrade seats until every furloughed mainline pilot is back at mainline. Those left seats should go to the furloughed guys. If you want the upgrade slots on aircraft that aren't new growth, and just from attrition, then go for it. But the new growth aircraft should be crewed by furloughed pilots.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

This is about new growth airplanes that wouldn't even be coming if it weren't for mainline shrinking. When UAL released the plans for shrinking the mainline fleet, they simultaneously announced an increase of 10%-12% for UAL Express. You're growing at the expense of mainline, and those planes wouldn't even be coming to you if it weren't for the mainline pilots having to suffer a furlough. You shouldn't be entitled to those upgrade seats until every furloughed mainline pilot is back at mainline. Those left seats should go to the furloughed guys. If you want the upgrade slots on aircraft that aren't new growth, and just from attrition, then go for it. But the new growth aircraft should be crewed by furloughed pilots.

PCL has got is RIGHT!

I can only speak for UAL, but the 2172 pilots FURLOUGHED the last go around are much more VOCAL about how they are gonna be treated. If UAX "Brand X" does'nt allow our guys some left seat jobs then "Brand X" aint getting the new "Growth Jets"

I am hearing the ERJ-190 tossed around as well, and I am sure you understand that UAL mainline guys would PREFER to fly it rather then Express, and the company would love to let Express have them--we need to navigate this one correctly.

Food for thought....the 737-300 is MUCH more profitable $$$ than ANY 50 seat RJ. Kinda makes you wonder why UAL is parking them (along with 1450 pilots) and growing the RJ fleet.

I am 100% for ONE LIST. I am also for a flow up-or preferential hiring if a JETS-AND-JOBS type deal comes about. We will see.

All you 500 hour wonders need to stop getting your panties in a wad-

I am an ex-United Express guy.

 

[enuffalready]

I am a lifer regional guy and have no desire to move to any mainline operator but the truth is that any pilot gets what he can negotiate. If the mainline guys have leverage and negotiate left seat then so be it. On the other hand, don't be upset when I do my best to get that larger RJ at my airline and am willing to fly for less than a mainline guy. Yes, I would fly an e-190 for $100 an hour as a captain.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

I am a lifer regional guy and have no desire to move to any mainline operator but the truth is that any pilot gets what he can negotiate. If the mainline guys have leverage and negotiate left seat then so be it. On the other hand, don't be upset when I do my best to get that larger RJ at my airline and am willing to fly for less than a mainline guy. Yes, I would fly an e-190 for $100 an hour as a captain.

Management loves you! I agree with most of your post, however not feeling any love over your last sentence. If you want to fly the E-190 for $100 an hour...so be it.

 

[enuffalready]

Management loves you! I agree with most of your post, however not feeling any love over your last sentence. If you want to fly the E-190 for $100 an hour...so be it.

The thing is, I'm not concerned if i make management happy or if I make mainline upset. My point is, if the mainline guys can can negotiate it from themselves, go ahead, I certainly don't begrudge them for negotiating for what benefits them. Just like I will negotiate for what is in my best interest, or more importantly what is in my family's best interest.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The thing is, I'm not concerned if i make management happy or if I make mainline upset. My point is, if the mainline guys can can negotiate it from themselves, go ahead, I certainly don't begrudge them for negotiating for what benefits them. Just like I will negotiate for what is in my best interest, or more importantly what is in my family's best interest.

BINGO!....We have created a system that requires each of us do what is best for us...The other side, or the national union, aren't going to take care of us....We need to take care of ourselves...and the mainline folks need to take care of themselves....

Nothing personal....just business....

Mainline can push for left seats and I can push for larger airplanes....

 

[enuffalready]

PCL has got is RIGHT!

I can only speak for UAL, but the 2172 pilots FURLOUGHED the last go around are much more VOCAL about how they are gonna be treated. If UAX "Brand X" does'nt allow our guys some left seat jobs then "Brand X" aint getting the new "Growth Jets"

I am hearing the ERJ-190 tossed around as well, and I am sure you understand that UAL mainline guys would PREFER to fly it rather then Express, and the company would love to let Express have them--we need to navigate this one correctly.

Food for thought....the 737-300 is MUCH more profitable $$$ than ANY 50 seat RJ. Kinda makes you wonder why UAL is parking them (along with 1450 pilots) and growing the RJ fleet.

I am 100% for ONE LIST. I am also for a flow up-or preferential hiring if a JETS-AND-JOBS type deal comes about. We will see.

All you 500 hour wonders need to stop getting your panties in a wad-

I am an ex-United Express guy.

people keep talking about flow ups/ flow back. NO thanks... other than cargo, what airlines have hired guys in the last 10 years that have not been furloughed for a significant period of time, and those same guys are getting ready to get furloughed again. I feel for those guys.. that Yo Yo has got to be getting old

 

[JoeMerchant]

You mainline folks are going to have a harder time selling your Jets4jobs BS this time around....As you can tell most aren't falling for it this time.....

Where will you place the "growth" RJs if nobody agrees to give up their seniority?

 

[strega7]

When UAL released the plans for shrinking the mainline fleet, they simultaneously announced an increase of 10%-12% for UAL Express. You're growing at the expense of mainline, and those planes wouldn't even be coming to you if it weren't for the mainline pilots having to suffer a furlough.

How much of that 10%-12% is the previously announced replacement of 18 EMB-120's with CRJ 700's at SkyWest? 30 seats to 64 for 18 aircraft has to add up. That order took place last year and deliveries start this fall if I recall correctly. Those 18 CRJ's would not be "growth" aircraft for the pilot group as these are "replacement" airframes for the same sized pilot group. Now, if SkyWest keeps some of the EMB's, then there would be a clear agument that a few of the 700's are "growth" that furloughs may take a swing at those.

 

[Caspian27]

This is about new growth airplanes that wouldn't even be coming if it weren't for mainline shrinking. When UAL released the plans for shrinking the mainline fleet, they simultaneously announced an increase of 10%-12% for UAL Express. You're growing at the expense of mainline, and those planes wouldn't even be coming to you if it weren't for the mainline pilots having to suffer a furlough. You shouldn't be entitled to those upgrade seats until every furloughed mainline pilot is back at mainline. Those left seats should go to the furloughed guys. If you want the upgrade slots on aircraft that aren't new growth, and just from attrition, then go for it. But the new growth aircraft should be crewed by furloughed pilots.

Others may have said it better:

I see your point and feel for the guys that took the risk during this last upswing and left...But it was a RISK to leave and they knew it. Some took a risk and stayed. I just don't agree with giving up left seats out of seniority when those that left knew full-well the risk they were taking.

If the regional was wholly-owned I could see more sense in this; but I still don't think it'd be fair to the guys that stayed. But a completely separate company that contracts for the major...they have no obligation to give up seats out of seniority.

This whole oil situation sucks for everyone.

 

[chitownflyer]

Again, though the regionals may be growing at the expense of mainline, that is NOT the fault AT ALL of regional pilots. We did not "steal" anyone's flying. MAINLINE pilots refused to fly RJs way back when, relegating them to the feeder airlines. MAINLINE management went overboard by continuing to farm out flying to Express.

 

[Max Powers]

just to clarify, I think the push that is going on is for left seat jobs only in growth airplanes that result from mainline shrinking. From what I understand, the push is for the left seat positions, but still be put at the bottom of the seniority list. Therefore nobody bumps anybody.

Except a right seat FO would have no career advancement after sitting in said seat for over 8 years - same poor schlep has probably never cracked even 30 grand.

Please tell me how your moronic logic make sense in regard to fairness. And for the record I'm pilot at a major, in other words for self preservation this would help me but I have a SPINE!!!!

 

[SaturnPilot]

Except a right seat FO would have no career advancement after sitting in said seat for over 8 years - same poor schlep has probably never cracked even 30 grand.

Please tell me how your moronic logic make sense in regard to fairness. And for the record I'm pilot at a major, in other words for self preservation this would help me but I have a SPINE!!!!

hey genius,

try going back to page one of this thread and reading my post where I said I was simply passing on information I heard about this subject, not arguing one side over the other. If your non-moronic logic and your spine could support it, reading comprehension would show you that I was not promoting this.

 

[JoeMerchant]

hey genius,

try going back to page one of this thread and reading my post where I said I was simply passing on information I heard about this subject, not arguing one side over the other. If your non-moronic logic and your spine could support it, reading comprehension would show you that I was not promoting this.

Quit backpeddling Saturn...You are well known as one of the ALPA cheerleaders..along with PCL and Rez...

You jumped in this argument towing the company line regarding mainline pilots getting super-seniority at the regionals...As you can see nobody is buying the BS this downturn....

Take your snake oil and peddle it in Herndon....Someone may buy it up there....

 

[rtmcfi]

There should be no abrogation of seniority. If Yonited pilots want to fly those planes, yonited should buy those planes. The United pilots are not in a strong position here. Their airplanes are gone. It's a little late to be thinking about a flowup/down agreement. Remember your history. How were the AWAC guys treated by the United pilots years ago?

 

[JoeMerchant]

There should be no abrogation of seniority. If Yonited pilots want to fly those planes, yonited should buy those planes. The United pilots are not in a strong position here. Their airplanes are gone. It's a little late to be thinking about a flowup/down agreement. Remember your history. How were the AWAC guys treated by the United pilots years ago?

AMEN!

 

[ifly4u]

You mainline folks are going to have a harder time selling your Jets4jobs BS this time around....As you can tell most aren't falling for it this time.....

Where will you place the "growth" RJs if nobody agrees to give up their seniority?

Simple they will create a new wholly owned regional staffed exclusively by mainline pilots to fly the large RJ's, it will be called Mid Atlan... oh crap we did that already.

I don't have a problem with jets for jobs per se, but if it happens the way they want it to on the scale they're talking about most of us will be stuck as FO's for the next 5-10 years. Even with a flow up this is not a very good deal for us. I'll withhold judgement until I see the details but for now I'm skeptical.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Quit backpeddling Saturn...You are well known as one of the ALPA cheerleaders..along with PCL and Rez...

You jumped in this argument towing the company line regarding mainline pilots getting super-seniority at the regionals...As you can see nobody is buying the BS this downturn....

Take your snake oil and peddle it in Herndon....Someone may buy it up there....

Hey Joe,

Since you keep calling me an ALPA cheerleader, even though I don't work at Herndon and have nothing to do with ALPA other than being a member, I am going to start calling you the decertification fairy, since you seem to believe in this magical fairy tale of a strong independent union for Skywest and ASA that is financially next to impossible. Then together we can lower the standards of FI even more.

I'm not backpedaling on this thread because I never came out towing anybody's line to begin with. I simply mentioned more information that I HEARD people were fighting for. I never said I agreed or disagreed with it anywhere...take your snake oil and turn it into reading comprehension.

 

[PCL_128]

"Decertification fairy." I love it!. Short Bus has a new nickname! :beer:

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm not advocating for decertification at this time....We need the DFR hammer over ALPA's head....

ALPA is going to slowly fade away on it's own......

SaturnPilot...What is your opinion on superseniority for mainline pilots at the regionals? Set the record straight.

 

[strega7]

Remember your history. How were the AWAC guys treated by the United pilots years ago?

For those too young to remember, a while back AWAC was purchased by United. Air Wisconsin "owned" a number of takeoff/landing slots at ORD. United purchased AWAC to get those slots for its mainline aircraft. That part is business.

The AWAC pilots thought, "great we should now become United pilots!" (The whole merger thing) Well UALPA didn't want to use ANY negotiating capital to get its "fellow" company pilots on board. Their reasoning/excuse was that UAL Corp bought AWAC, not United Airlines, sorry. So UAL Corp and the United pilots benifited from the purchase, but the AWAC pilots were left behind.

See also Randsom pilots and Pan Am, Comair/ASA and Delta for other examples.

One wonders what would have happened if they (AWAC/ASA/Comair)would have had scope language like the current ExpressJet contract that "stopped" the SkyWest $3.50per share buy out?

(Please correct if I've mis-remembered )

 

[PCL_128]

I'm not advocating for decertification at this time....We need the DFR hammer over ALPA's head....

Typical. You think you can get what you want just by threatening people with lawsuits. Such a sad, sad, little man, Short Bus.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Typical. You think you can get what you want just by threatening people with lawsuits. Such a sad, sad, little man, Short Bus.

Just trying to keep furloughed mainline pilots out of my seat.....

ALPA and the mainline MECs made their bed....time for them to sleep in it....

How long has job security/scope been an issue? Mainline pilots don't even want to talk about it until the furloughs happen...Then they just want to come in at the top.....NO DICE.....

 

[SaturnPilot]

I'm not advocating for decertification at this time....We need the DFR hammer over ALPA's head....

ALPA is going to slowly fade away on it's own......

SaturnPilot...What is your opinion on superseniority for mainline pilots at the regionals? Set the record straight.

that's not what you have indicated in other threads, but perhaps your positions have changed.

My opinion on this issue is that I don't have the answer...if I did, I would quit flying and sell it.

But I do know that attitudes like yours, which exist on both sides of the issue, will probably prevent a mutually beneficial solution that is fair to major furloughs and regional pilots. You making comments telling furloughees (who most likely had zero say in the current scope clause at their airline) that they made their bed and they have to sleep in it probably doesn't sit well with them as they watch your airline benefit and prosper in new aircraft. Same thing goes for mainline guys who constantly bash regional pilots as though they have any say whatsoever in the size of a/c their airline flies.

From what little I know about Compass, they seem to have a good agreement there where you can choose not to flow up to NW if you don't want to, and if you choose that you cannot be bumped. That at least moves us closer to a one list scenario. Correct me if I am wrong as to how the flow program works at Compass.

 

[PCL_128]

Just trying to keep furloughed mainline pilots out of my seat.....

There's no such thing as "your seat," Joey. Until you start flying EV code, none of it belongs to you.

 

[CFIT]

If it comes down to getting new planes or bypassing seniority, United can keep the GD jets and get Mesa to fly them.

SkyWest has turned deals like this down before.

PCL and Sonny, do everyone a favor and throw yourselves down a couple flights of stairs. Blame your problems on management or maybe take some personnal responsibility, no one forced you to the Legacys.

 

[SkyNation]

PCL isn't at a Legacy. He paid a scab for a job at Gulfstream and now works at a non-ALPA airline, AirTran. Yet, he's famously stated that given the choice he'd choose to work at Mesa, because they are union, than SkyWest.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL and Sonny, do everyone a favor and throw yourselves down a couple flights of stairs. Blame your problems on management or maybe take some personnal responsibility, no one forced you to the Legacys.

I don't work at a legacy, and I'm probably not going to get furloughed from my major. But I do have some common sense, and common sense dictates that you shouldn't get the benefits of growth while the mainline pilots get furloughed as their real airline shrinks. You're only growing because they are shrinking. Sorry, but you don't deserve advancement at their expense.

 

[strega7]

There's no such thing as "your seat," Joey. Until you start flying EV code, none of it belongs to you.

Isn't he flying the stuff the DALPA didn't/doesn't want and specifically approves of in it's PWA? His seat is custom made by DALPA for him and until DALPA convices (i.e. uses massive bargining capital) management to bring it back to mainline, it's his seat at his airline until that happens. Is his seat "secure"? None of our seats are when oil and the economy are in stupid mode.