Frontier reaches TA with pilots

[AAflyer]

Once again TP you've made an A$$ of yourself in public! STFU. Go back to your unit, wait for another interview chance with fed-ex or SWA, and hope they forgot what a tool you are. Don't worry about what is going on back here in the world. Thanks for offering to enlighten us with all your knowledge, but I think we'll be just fine.

Thomas didn't act alone. There were junior guys represented on the negotiating committee.

FYI - Under the TA:

The FOs on property don't take ANY hit. Fourth year FOs are only bested by SWA ,AA (MD-80) ,DAL(737-800) ,and NWA(A320) ,AND they'll get a retirement they don't have now.

The new 1st year FO rate puts F9 right in the middle of the pack of our major competitors. I'm not crazy about lowering it, but it is currently the highest in the pax industy, and FAPA doesn't represent pilots who haven't been hired yet.

The "B scale" you are talking about will go away in a little over one year when the pay frozen captains meet back up with the reduced scale.

The reduced scale still puts year six captain's pay ahead of NWA(A320),AWA(All),Air Tran,UAL(A320/319),Jet Blue,Spirit,UsAirways(319),ATA,and Midwest.

Our top captain's pay is only exceeded by SWA.

Per diem goes up to meet or exceed all but SWA and UsAir by 18 months after signing.

The retirement (401k % + DC %) meets or exceeds SWA, AA, ALK, UsAir, NWA(?), ATA, AirTran, Spirit, and Midwest.

No, I don't think your retirement trumps my A and B fund. We did not get rid of it, nor have we filed for BK.

AAflyer (Still very intact, and very well funded DB plan)

 

[StaySeated]

Who is Everyone?

Why won't anybody post the details? Is it that bad? You guys don't want to be taking a pay hit right as everyone else is negotiating a payraise....

The contract language is more important than the pay rates in my opinion. With that being said, who is "everyone else" considering...

American contract is amendable in may 2008. Frontier's current and TA rates are lower than AA in both seats compared to their narrow body rates.

Continental contract is amendable in Dec. 2008. Frontier current and TA rates are higher than Continental's FO rates and higher than Continentals CA rates in most years compared to Continental's Small Narrow body rates.

DAL contract is amendable in Jan. 2010. Frontier current and TA rates are Lower in the right seat (but pretty close) than DAL's narrow body rates and higher in the CA seat compared to the MD88 and Lower than DAL's 737NG.

Northwest contract is amendable in Dec. 2011. Frontier current and TA rates are higher in the CA seat compared to NWA's A320 rate and very similiar to NWA's FO rate.

United contract is amendable May 2009. Frontier current and TA rates are higher in both seats compared to UAL's A320 rate.

USAIR/AWA are amendable in Dec 2009 and Jan 2007 respectively. Who knows what is going to happen with these contracts but, Frontiers current and TA rates are higher than USAirways in both seats and higher than AWA in both seats compared to their A320 rates.

NOT one legacy has even started Section 6 openers, and Frontier's current and TA rates are right in the middle or above everyone.

On to the LCC's...

Airtran is in negotiations. Frontier's current and TA rates are higher than Airtran's FO rates. Frontier's current CA rates are higher than Airtrans captain rates, and the TA rates are higher up until year 10, I think.

Alaska contract is amendable in May 2007. Frontier's current and TA rates are the same as Alaska's in the FO seat. The captain seat is currently higher than Alaska and the TA rates are slightly lower in some years.

Aloha contract is amendable in April 2009. Frontiers curent and TA rates are higher in both seats.

Hawaiin contract is amendable in June 2007. Frontiers current and TA rates are higher in the FO seat and the current CA rate is higher than Hawaiin. The CA TA rate is slighly lower in some years.

Jetblue has no contract, and they have to clean the cabin!!Just kidding. The Frontier current and TA rates are higher in both seats.

Midwest contract is amendable in 2008, not sure of the month. The Frontier current and TA rates are higher in both seats. Midex goes out 16 years so the highest end is higher than Frontier but we don't have a 16 year rate.

SWA is in negotiations. Frontiers current and TA are a lot lower than SWA's.

So, when you include the LCC's, we have a grand total of two airlines in negotiations. Frontier's current and TA rates are higher or very similiar to every airline mentioned above with the usual exception to every rule in aviation.

I have not reviewed the entire TA yet, but I have read some items that I like a lot and some that I am not excited about. I am quite surprised, but then again this is flighinfo, by the amount of excitement this has generated. How can you get so positive or negative when you have no information whatsoever regarding the TA?

 

[F9 Driver]

No, I don't think your retirement trumps my A and B fund. We did not get rid of it, nor have we filed for BK.

AAflyer (Still very intact, and very well funded DB plan)

Sorry - My bad. I was comparing apples to apples, and should have stated as much by saying something like (401K% + DC%)

 

[AAflyer]

Sorry - My bad. I was comparing apples to apples, and should have stated as much by saying something like (401K% + DC%)

No Problem. It certainly isn't peachy over here, but i am still happy to have a pension for the time being.

Good Luck to you guys,

AA

 

[AAflyer]

The contract language is more important than the pay rates in my opinion. With that being said, who is "everyone else" considering...

American contract is amendable in may 2008. Frontier's current and TA rates are lower than AA in both seats compared to their narrow body rates.

Continental contract is amendable in Dec. 2008. Frontier current and TA rates are higher than Continental's FO rates and higher than Continentals CA rates in most years compared to Continental's Small Narrow body rates.

DAL contract is amendable in Jan. 2010. Frontier current and TA rates are Lower in the right seat (but pretty close) than DAL's narrow body rates and higher in the CA seat compared to the MD88 and Lower than DAL's 737NG.

Northwest contract is amendable in Dec. 2011. Frontier current and TA rates are higher in the CA seat compared to NWA's A320 rate and very similiar to NWA's FO rate.

United contract is amendable May 2009. Frontier current and TA rates are higher in both seats compared to UAL's A320 rate.

USAIR/AWA are amendable in Dec 2009 and Jan 2007 respectively. Who knows what is going to happen with these contracts but, Frontiers current and TA rates are higher than USAirways in both seats and higher than AWA in both seats compared to their A320 rates.

NOT one legacy has even started Section 6 openers, and Frontier's current and TA rates are right in the middle or above everyone.

On to the LCC's...

Airtran is in negotiations. Frontier's current and TA rates are higher than Airtran's FO rates. Frontier's current CA rates are higher than Airtrans captain rates, and the TA rates are higher up until year 10, I think.

Alaska contract is amendable in May 2007. Frontier's current and TA rates are the same as Alaska's in the FO seat. The captain seat is currently higher than Alaska and the TA rates are slightly lower in some years.

Aloha contract is amendable in April 2009. Frontiers curent and TA rates are higher in both seats.

Hawaiin contract is amendable in June 2007. Frontiers current and TA rates are higher in the FO seat and the current CA rate is higher than Hawaiin. The CA TA rate is slighly lower in some years.

Jetblue has no contract, and they have to clean the cabin!!Just kidding. The Frontier current and TA rates are higher in both seats.

Midwest contract is amendable in 2008, not sure of the month. The Frontier current and TA rates are higher in both seats. Midex goes out 16 years so the highest end is higher than Frontier but we don't have a 16 year rate.

SWA is in negotiations. Frontiers current and TA are a lot lower than SWA's.

So, when you include the LCC's, we have a grand total of two airlines in negotiations. Frontier's current and TA rates are higher or very similiar to every airline mentioned above with the usual exception to every rule in aviation.

I have not reviewed the entire TA yet, but I have read some items that I like a lot and some that I am not excited about. I am quite surprised, but then again this is flighinfo, by the amount of excitement this has generated. How can you get so positive or negative when you have no information whatsoever regarding the TA?

While it is ammendable in 2008, AMR opened early on us in 2006 (as allowed by either side.) With some resolve we are hoping to get a better contract by the end of 2007, or early 2008.

Two things currenly in our favor.

1. Our industry is rebounding and oil is still going down.

2. AMR will NOT want to be negotiating with ALL 3 labor groups in the spring of 2008.

AAflyer

 

[Captain Overs]

Sorry - My bad. I was comparing apples to apples, and should have stated as much by saying something like (401K% + DC%)

I don't follow that. If the other airlines are paying more then you're still behind based on match alone.

 

[F9 Driver]

Bye Bye Lowpay!!!

Jeff Thomas, Mr. High School Grad with no other skill sets, made a B scale to save his. Who would have thought. Does anyone read the history books or have a clue. Your union leaders need to be both Junior and Senior guys. What a bunch of idiots. Good luck. I think every FO should give 20% of their pay to the captains, they deserve it, because they are smarter then you.

Hey!!! I hear you resigned from F9 11/30.

Looks like SWA gets the pleasure of your company, and you don't have to worry your little head about how our contract does.

I wish you (and them) luck!

 

[monkeybrains01]

"FOs dont take a hit...ru kidding me. this ta sells every fo on property down the river. Upgrades r done. 1 rj for every 2 AB currently on property...after that 1 for 1. 30% of the max number of rjs allowed, can be up to 88 seats, and unlimited turboprops. I know that scott, jeff, jon et al worked hard on the ta, but if that's not selling out the junior guys , what is. and for what 6% dc, sorry my vote is hell no.

 

[F9 Driver]

"FOs dont take a hit...ru kidding me. this ta sells every fo on property down the river. Upgrades r done. 1 rj for every 2 AB currently on property...after that 1 for 1. 30% of the max number of rjs allowed, can be up to 88 seats, and unlimited turboprops. I know that scott, jeff, jon et al worked hard on the ta, but if that's not selling out the junior guys , what is. and for what 6% dc, sorry my vote is hell no.

And what do we have now that prevents management from adopting the flyi business model, stopping delivery of Airbi, and grabbing a bunch of 50-95 seaters?

What pay grade would your upgrade into one of them come at?

 

[monkeybrains01]

whats to prevent them from doing the same thing if the ta is ratified. the short answer is nothing. They have been in violation of our scope since day 1 with horizion. do u really believe 1 word the idiots in the g.o. tell u. I hope not. if potter, collins, tate, cam, sully and the rest the bunche's lips r moving, u can bet that they r lying to u. Im actually reading some nice improvements in the new ta, but at the price of putting myself on the street, or at the very least, condemming myself to the right seat forever, no way. Look at this industry, when will pilots ever learn. do u think f9's relationship with labor is any different that any other airline. wake up, we just have a lot more sheep flying our a/c than some other airlines. but hey, beats working for a living , right? or will it be, if you don't like it then quit. Well I do like it, but I also expect to be compensated properly for what I do, and $76 an our for 4th year pay 2 years from now ain't gettin it done, hell that is'nt even gettin it done now. If they really wanted the fos to go for this crap, they should have been smart enough to bump up our hourly 5% a year, because Im never going to see upgread now. Sad thing is there r still a bunch of junior morons that wouldnt want to damage our wonderful working relationship with management, so I wouldn't sweat it, it will probably pass.

 

[F9 Driver]

I'm not far off from some of what you're saying Monkey. I'm just thinking that with the sheep around this isn't a bad deal IMHO.

Sheeple everywhere need to remember that the faces on the other side of the table can/do change.

 

[Aviator7576]

frontier ta

F9....

Not to rain on your ta parade, but your top capts pay is exceeded not only by swa but also by abx, fedex and ups. I would question you per diem numbers as well, as ups is only exceeded by swa (and that is just on domestic perdiem). Please disregard this posting if you were just referencing pax airlines but you made no distinction in your post.

Aviator7576

 

[StaySeated]

AAflyer, thanks for the info. I was quite suprised to hear about the early opener, but your point regarding 3 groups amendable at once is noteworthy. Aviator 7576, I didn't even look at cargo, but it is no surprise that abx, fedex and ups have higher pay rates. Frontier barely grosses 1Billion annually and some of the cargo guys net that in a few weeks. No comparison.

 

[jetalc]

Wow, you're a manager's wet dream.

Ummm...OK - how's that? Because we need to bounce it off you "experts" before making a choice for ourselves? Gimme a fricking break. If it's approved, everyone will hear about it, until then, nothing has been decided.

 

[jetalc]

F9....

Not to rain on your ta parade, but your top capts pay is exceeded not only by swa but also by abx, fedex and ups. I would question you per diem numbers as well, as ups is only exceeded by swa (and that is just on domestic perdiem). Please disregard this posting if you were just referencing pax airlines but you made no distinction in your post.

Aviator7576

Re-read the post - it said "passenger carriers."