Freedom callsign?

[flying4food]

Guy's, Guy's, help me out here!!! Who are we to pass judgement on how a person obtains their rating's??? If a doctor were to self study, go to the medical boards and pass, so be it. Obviously he met the requirements of the board. If an attorney wants to self study, then take the bar exam, so be it. If a pilot does not want to be an instructor, for what ever reason, and wants to fast track, so be it. Does he meet the requirements set forth by the Fed's??

By the way, I've met several CFI's that were less than professional. Since you are a CFI, does that automatically make you a pro??? I don't think so.

Freight Dog, that's your opinion that he messed up by going to gulfstream, so should you be-little him for that?? Again who are you to pass judgement. I have pointed several young pilot's towards those school's, mesa, gulfstream, eagle, etc. Intresting enough, I've talked with 2 or 3 captains at majors who wanted their kids to pft vs CFI, again a preference. It appears to me the training is identical, part 121.

So how is he hurting you or me for that matter??? When a regional airline receives more than 50 resumes a week, 95% of those CFI's, how do they pick?? If you can obtain training, that makes you stand out, what's wrong with that??? It's not like he went sneaking in after hours and stole it!!!

It appears to me PCL is doing really well, he is flying an RJ at a growing company, from what I've read here, he did everything right, and he should be proud. This seems to be part of the capitolistic society that we have created, you shouldn't give others a beat down for that!!!

Peace!!!!

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

Well, for one thing, doctors cannot self-study for their credentials. They have to attend an "approved" medical school. It used to be that one could read law and then take the bar exam. But, so-called "law readers" had to serve an apprenticeship under a licensed attorney for several years before they could become full-fledged attorneys. I realize that Abraham Lincoln read law and became a lawyer, but that was in the 1830s.

I realize we've had dozens and dozens of P-F-T discussions. I say again, in my case, I was not about to to pay for a job. Absolutely, a job I would have liked, but it was still - a job. Paying for a job sets a bad precedent for individuals as well as the group as a whole. How can you expect any respect from management, much less from your peers, if you are willing to pay for your job? I met every qualification at the time. Therefore, I should have been considered on that basis and not because of my finances. That's one reason why I feel that P-F-T hurt me.

Face it, they will be more than glad to "hire" you if you will give them money. And, they will be glad to wash you out of training and take your deposit. No one will convince me that does not happen with P-F-T. When money changes hands, no one cares anymore - because they have your money.

Now, regarding the airline pilots who want their children to P-F-T, I submit that many of them are in their own little worlds and have no clue about the big-picture implications of P-F-T and its impact on pilots as a whole.

Maybe PCL, individually, by P-F-Ting, isn't impacting the vast majority of pilots wanting the job he has. But, undoubtedly, there are many, many more who P-F-T, and thereby cut in line in front of the more qualified (and, maybe, more deserving). Once more, how do you like it when someone cuts in front of you in the checkout line at the supermarket? Or, my favorite, when someone cuts you off in traffic? How did you like it when some kid in school pushed in front of you at the drinking fountain? Think about it.

Finally, while P-F-T airline "experience" might catch some pilot recruiters' attention, it most certainly will catch the "attention" of the captain's interview board. Yes, I realize that many captains have P-F-T'd, but many have not. Want to risk that kind of blackball? Think about that one, too.

Once more, the analysis to determine if something is P-F-T is if the training can be used at any place outside the company in question. Therefore, MAPD ab initio training is not P-F-T because you earn an FAA Commercial-Multi-Instrument which is recognized outside of Mesa. For that matter, neither is CAA. All ratings earned in Sanford are good anywhere.

Oh, and one more thing. Anything that Kit Darby of AIR whatever and his Pied Pipers of the Pilot Shortage and other lackeys might encourage should go through one ear and out the other. The ten-thousand furloughees are proof positive that there is no pilot shortage; moreover, Kit has to deliver customers to his P-F-T vendors!

 

[Wiggums]

Guy's, Guy's, help me out here!!! Who are we to pass judgement on how a person obtains their rating's???

It appears to me PCL is doing really well, he is flying an RJ at a growing company, from what I've read here, he did everything right, and he should be proud. This seems to be part of the capitolistic society that we have created, you shouldn't give others a beat down for that!!!

Peace!!!!

Yeah, exactly my point. PCL did what he needed to do get ahead and so do the pilots that work at Freedom. What gives PCL the right to critize this group of pilots?

Azpilot: Yeah, I'd really feel bad if some CFI gave me the finger from his Cessna as I cruise by in my RJ.

 

[Freight Dog]

Flying4food, I am going to quote PCL's ENTIRE post here:

PCL wrote:

You're right, I did PFT. It's a decision I have recently come to regret, dispite the fact that it got me into a CRJ with such low time. If I had known what I know now about how the industry works, I never would have PFTed. When I got into this industry I heard from marketing people telling me that their programs of PFT were the fast track to the airline world. Unfortunately, I didn't know of this website several years ago when I started my training. If I had, then I would have know before hand not to make this mistake. People sometimes make mistakes. Maybe someday this one will come back to bite me in the a$$. I don't know. If it does, I'll just have to take it. I can't undo what I have already done.

--------

Now, he is working for a respectable airline and sees what and how PFT works.

The way it works is simple - you take a position and instead of hiring a pilot and paying him/her for the job, you take someone who pays YOU to work all in the interests of "getting ahead" and getting that coveted airline job. Great... now that there are very few airlines hiring, and there are thousands of qualified pilots furloughed, what are you doing by literally paying to work? Are you doing yourself any service? Are you doing your career any service? Are you doing this profession any service?

You see, jobs are dwindling down, and regional airlines used to be places where you'd put in a couple years before a major called you, and that is when you're really gonna start caring, right? Well, majors have thousands of pilots on the street and it will be YEARS before they hire anyone off the street, and when they do, the market will be filled by very qualified pilots. Now, you have to endure those years. You are not getting any younger, and many have families to support. Now you start to think... well, it'll be awhile before I get a shot to move on, now I gotta think about improving this airline and make it a decent place to work since I'll be staying here a few years. But see, you've already demonstrated to the management that you were basically whoring yourself for flight time and didn't care much about anything else and it will be a very tough sell to improve your work conditions. Ask Comair pilots who walked the line for 89 days. They just STARTED to get the ball rolling to improve the regional airline contracts. Mesa is next, and looks like it will be a big fight. My point is that PFT screws EVERYONE. You may be thinking, oh great, I'm gonna get some Part 121/135 time real fast and move on up. Sure you will... where?

You say, 95% of regional applicants are CFI's, and who will the airline pick, someone with supposed quality time from Gulfstream or a CFI? How about I add one more category.. someone offering to pay to sit in the right seat? What does that do for actual jobs, let alone liveable wage?

I hope this clarifies somewhat how PFT is hurting you, and ESPECIALLY you Flying4food since you are an up and coming pilot who is apparently still not flying for a regional airline. If you have any more questions, please post them.

Oh, and to answer your question on who am I to question how people get ahead in this industry... I am just another airline pilot, a dues-paying ALPA member who actually believes in integrity and improving this bruised and battered profession. I am also someone who also happens to have never instructed, yet who got paid for every flight hour flown after obtaining a commercial pilot certificate, who honorably worked through the ranks to build up flight time the honorable way - by working hard and getting paid. I am also someone who may end up sitting on the interview board interviewing you for the job of your dreams.

 

[flying4food]

So if I understand you right, the only way to get an airline job in the U.S. is to flight instruct??? If one doesn't "pay their dues" then they should be black-balled or shunned.

Some of you don't realize how good we have it in this free country, the ability to debate topics such as this, this right to get an education, it's all about choices. And to think that someone would sit on a hiring board and deliberatly sabotage someone's attempt at employment, based soley on an opinion!! Is that right?? To think you would deny a qualified person a chance at a job, not based on his/her qualifications and skills, but his/her training or how it was obtained, because you don't believe in it.

That to me sounds like discrimination, you are basing your hiring decision on a pre-disposed thought or notion. So once you have all the pft'ers weeded out, who's next??? After all, now you'll have a club of nothing but CFI's. Where does it stop??

I don't know, we've talked about this a lot at the office, people with aviation backgrounds and those without. I went so far as to bring up this web site and let others look!!! Everyone was amazed!! Oh well, More conversation for the office tomorrow!!!

Peace!!

 

[climbhappy]

yes its a debate! it evokes emotions.

i'll admit when i picked up the latest flying mag and saw an ad for gulstream with a guy who was hired by Pinnacle with 450 hours
REALLY PISSED ME OFF and i'm opened minded.

i think for me and maybe others, that PFT is really an "express pass" to the cockpit and it it is similar to me to the country club syndrome. this cash buys a prestige job, one i would love to have.

The problem comes when this express pass devalues all of the sacrifice myself and others have made to get where we are and gosh darnett, we still stand outside of the dining room by the maitre'd while this other guy gets seated first and we've been waiting for an hour.

is it debatable sure, is it wrong? no. does it suck? yes. can we do anything about it? no. can we sanction those through legal collective action like no jumpseat? yes.

in the scheme of things, should i spend one more ounce of grey matter on it? no.

 

[bobbysamd]

Paying dues

So if I understand you right, the only way to get an airline job in the U.S. is to flight instruct???

Not necessarily. Such entry-level jobs as banner-towing are available to 250-hour pilots. These jobs are extremely hard to get because of the plethora of new, 250-hour pilots out there. There are some quasi-P-F-T schemes/scams for such jobs that take advantage of these poor souls. As a practical matter, flight instruction jobs are easier to get. While I believe that you miss out on a lot of learning by not instructing, if you can get a non-instructing pilot (and non-P-F-T) job at 250 hours, then more power to you.

If one doesn't "pay their dues" then they should be black-balled or shunned.

Well, look at it this way. I worked in broadcasting for many years and worked hard and put up with a great deal of nonsense to finally get to a decent radio station. In my last job, I was hired to work days. I had worked nights for a few years, so I was looking forward to getting a life. I'm put on nights after only several months working days. I was promised that I would be returned to days after a suitable night reporter was found. My boss knew I was not happy working nights (For one thing, it greatly interfered with my flying and training and he knew that!). It wasn't a matter of months; it was more like three years, with maybe a month or two at times working days. As a matter of fact, I never really had a really regular shift for the 7½ years I worked at that station, except for this horrendous night shift.

During the time I was working nights, people who were working days came and left. Those vacancies were filled by less-experienced people than me, who had not "paid dues." So, how would you feel if this happened to you? I'm sure that most people would feel the same way. Hence, another reason why P-F-T is resented.

Hope that provides a little more clarification on why cutting in front of others is so disliked.

 

[azpilot]

Azpilot: Yeah, I'd really feel bad if some CFI gave me the finger from his Cessna as I cruise by in my RJ.

Too bad I am not a CFI and too bad I wasn't in a Cessna. I don't really give a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** what the guys think anyway. If they saw it, which I doubt, and felt like saluting me back fine with them. Just a friendly reminder of what a lot of people think about them. Someday a Freedom pilot might feel really bad when I am on the hiring board of an airline they are applying to or others which have the same opinion as me are and we walk the Freedom pilot to the door. This industry is all about connections. I know people who are losing friends and chances to fly at a major because of their decision to fly for Freedom.

- AZPilot

 

[Mongolikecandy]

Flying4Food wrote "Guy's, Guy's, help me out here!!! Who are we to pass judgement on how a person obtains their rating's???"

It's not about how a person gets his ratings. When a pilot is working on his ratings, he is not taking a job away from anyone. It's what he does with those ratings afterwards. That is the real problem with places like Gulfstream. People willing to pay money to be a first officer are taking jobs away from others who are QUALIFIED to fly right seat. Simply put. That is the problem with PFT.

 

[SSDD]

It cracks me up when people want to rewrite history. A lot of guys at Comair and ASA PFT'd back in the 90's when a lot of us were asking them not to do it. Now they justify it by saying that everybody was doing it back then, BULL$hit!!!...Wisconsin, Skywest(yeah, the non union guys) and Horizon have NEVER been PFT.

PFT in any form is wrong, it demeans us all.