Freedom callsign?

[trainerjet]

Jimbo,

I agree with you...WTF? Even though you explained it nice and simple....they didn't get it.

Why bother.

And no one even mentioned training contracts, although PA-44 seems to think that's what you meant when you listed those airlines that had, at one time, been PFT

 

[PA-44Typed]

trainerjet

trainerjet
That is not what I said!!! What I said was that “Training Contracts” are NOT PFT. A training contract is something what takes place after hire. “PFT” is just a way of obtaining (buying) experience. PFT is sold by marketing A$$holes with the promise of a job after you fork over 20 or 30K. What they don’t tell you is that they never hire anyone, and with good reason there will always be some rich pecker-head standing in line to pay his 30K for “a job”.

 

[g159av8tor]

PFT and flying for a non-union carrier are similar ideas in that they both reflect negatively on our profession. Both detract from the industry standards that are raised when strides in contracts are made and debase all us as professionals.

I have my opinions and certainly agree one is the lessor of the two evils, but the song remains the same. We do it to ourselves over and over and over and over again. Some of us would just sell our souls to be where others can only dream to be. But, can one even have a soul to sell when inflicting so much harm to our profession?

Tailwinds...

 

[Anaconda]

and put me down for another one of those "bitch slaps"...I wanna give one of my captains one!

now THAT'S funny!!!

i'll take about a dozen of those myself, to hand out to some of the beasts i have to put up with...

 

[trainerjet]

Re: trainerjet

trainerjet
That is not what I said!!! What I said was that “Training Contracts” are NOT PFT. A training contract is something what takes place after hire. “PFT” is just a way of obtaining (buying) experience. PFT is sold by marketing A$$holes with the promise of a job after you fork over 20 or 30K. What they don’t tell you is that they never hire anyone, and with good reason there will always be some rich pecker-head standing in line to pay his 30K for “a job”.

The point I was making..and captjim was also trying to make..is that there seems to be a difference in how some people define PFT. You seem to subscribe to the Gulfstream (among others) definition where you pay a certain amount of money for flight time and once this time is gained, you may or may not have a job.

The truer (IMO) form of PFT, which is not as prevalent today as it has been in the past....although I think Pinnacle still uses it for those under a certain flight time level, is where a company requires you to pay...up front, not in a "training contract"...a certain amount of money for the training the airline is required to give you as a condition of employment. This was used in the past at those airlines mentioned by captjim. You interviewed, usually took some sort of sim eval (often at your own expense...and usually at FSI), and if selected, you then paid the airline directly for what they determined was the cost of your training. Typically between $9 - 10k for first officer training. (No type rating.) This was the only way to be hired at these companies when this type of PFT was required. Eventually, when the supply/demand dictated, this PFT was waived for applicants with a certain amount of total/multi time...then done away with altogether.

 

[captjim]

Re: captjim

captjim
PFT= pay for training, like you said just like Gulfstreem. This is where you pay an amount of money for a amount of flight time.

A Training Contract= is what some companies were doing after you were hired. And you only had to pay it if you left early. In the past this amount was never given back at all. Most REPUTIBLE companies have done away with this thing altogether.

PA-44Typed, you seem to be changing the rules or should I say definitions a bit. This is not a flame in the least bit.

Gulfstream was a phenomenon that began the time I was finishing flt school around "94".

Most of my friends that were getting hired at regional or commuters at the time were paying for their training at Flight Safety. I knew guys that went to Coex and they had to pay $7,500 for the 1900, others paid $9,400 for the Emb 120 and ATR. Others went to Exress 1 and paid $9,500 or so. Many airlines had pay for training. This is when the term pay for training was coined.

A few years later, I signed a training contract at Business Aviation for I think $450 or so. I agreed to stay there for 3 months, after 3 months, they would begin to pay me that money back.

Back to Gulfstream, they are having poeple buying flight time. I know they do get paid now, and have a contract(CBA or Collective Bargining Agreement). This is totally different than PFT. There is no real term for what they are doing. However, I see a lot of people calling it PFT. Please be careful however when using that term. There are a lot of people that PFT'ed in the early 90's. At the time it was the only way to get on at a commuter, I believe there were only 2 that didn't have PFT.

I do agree that the guys/gals at Gulfstream are doing us a tremendous disservice. I don't think its to the same level as Freedom Air's pilots, I do terribly dispise those people!

Clear as mud?

 

[captjim]

I guess I took to long with my reply TrainerJet, you beat me to it. Good explanation!

 

[Brother Francis]

Sorry

"Yes there is Freedumb pilots have SCABS on there knees"

This looks like the "Daily Language Practice" assignments my 5th grade daughter has.

How about:

"Yes, there are Freedumb pilots who have SCABS on their knees."

Sorry. I am definitely not the language police, but that one actually hurt.

 

[KeroseneDream]

Actually, I think it would read as such:


"Yes, there is a difference. Freedumb pilots have SCABS on there knees."

 

[Bluto]

Language police

Doh! Mr. Kerosene,
I think you meant "...their knees...". Otherwise, however, I agree with your interpretation.

 

[KeroseneDream]

Re: Language police

Doh! Mr. Kerosene,
I think you meant "...their knees...". Otherwise, however, I agree with your interpretation.

Haha,

I guess that's the difference between internet message boards and formal writing. Either way we all get the point. Kind of funny how discussions stray completely away from their original intent.

 

[g159av8tor]

Bull $hit. It all depends on the management.

Freedom being non-union is not the issue. It's whip-saw tactics being used and reason Freedom was formed that are the problems.

I agree, mostly, and should have illustrated my thought more completely. In the larger scheme of things, any non-union shop is a liability; though SKW and Freedom are at separate ends of the spectrum. I applaud SKW's management in keeping the pilot corps content. SKW pilots can never raise the bar in the industry, they only match it. I know they are a good company...

Solidarity is strength in numbers.

Tailwinds...

 

[skypine69]

So do Freedumb pilots have MESA ids or not? I had a jumpseater a couple of weeks ago and I asked him if he was Freedumb and he said no and that they atually call him the nite before a trip and cancel some of it so they can run a Freedumb plane on it. A Freedumb pilot will not ride on my airplane as a jumpseater!

 

[flying4food]

If I'm not mistaken, isn't Mesa a PFT outfit also???

 

[azpilot]

So do Freedumb pilots have MESA ids or not? I had a jumpseater a couple of weeks ago and I asked him if he was Freedumb and he said no and that they atually call him the nite before a trip and cancel some of it so they can run a Freedumb plane on it. A Freedumb pilot will not ride on my airplane as a jumpseater!

They may have their old ID's but they are supposed to use Freedom badges. I heard Mesa is paying for positive space tickets for a lot of the Freedumb pilots to commute! Go figure.

Best thing to do would be to carry the list I guess.