KeroseneDream
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Freedom callsign?
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g159av8tor
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Jim said:
I agree, mostly, and should have illustrated my thought more completely. In the larger scheme of things, any non-union shop is a liability; though SKW and Freedom are at separate ends of the spectrum. I applaud SKW's management in keeping the pilot corps content. SKW pilots can never raise the bar in the industry, they only match it. I know they are a good company...
Solidarity is strength in numbers.
Tailwinds...
So do Freedumb pilots have MESA ids or not? I had a jumpseater a couple of weeks ago and I asked him if he was Freedumb and he said no and that they atually call him the nite before a trip and cancel some of it so they can run a Freedumb plane on it. A Freedumb pilot will not ride on my airplane as a jumpseater!
flying4food
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MetroSheriff
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bobbysamd
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Mesa P-F-T
I worked at Mesa Airlines Pilot Development aka San Juan Pilot Training. It is not P-F-T. Most certainly, students are indoctrinated thoroughly in Mesa line procedures and can interview at Mesa, but the Commercial-Instrument-Multi they earn is good anywhere. Not all MAPD students get "the interview." Not all MAPD interviewees make it through class. MAPD is 100% legit, but another way for Mesa to save money on crew training and make money at the same time. One thing at which Mesa has always excelled is making money.
Mesa also has an ATP program, in which you can get your ATP with a Mesa check airman who is a DE. Of course, you have to pay. Pass the first time, and you get "the interview." Bust, and be rechecked, and you get your ATP but no interview. Some people pass the first time. Some people don't. You pay your money, you takes your chances. Call it "pay for interview." I call it another Mesa money-making machine.
Then, you have the PACE program. I am not familiar with all the fine details, but I know that it involves taking Mesa line training. You pay for it and get an interview. Inasmuch as you don't receive a type rating or certificate out of the deal, that, to me, would definitely be P-F-T.
Of course, without a doubt, Gulfstream is P-F-T. P-F-T goes back at least ten years, when I was in the commuter airline job market. In 1992 and before, when times were bad, you about had to P-F-T or forget about commuter jobs. Of course, P-F-Ters get to cut in front of the line ahead of more legitimate job seekers. I already had interviewed at non P-F-T companies, so I reasonably believed that I was a legitimate job seeker. The notion of paying for any job, in any business, turned my stomach, no matter how badly I wanted the job, notwithstanding the harm it does to your colleagues. I refused to P-F-T.
I can't say that you can equate P-F-T directly to scabbing, but it is a distant cousin, in my .02 opinion. There is a correlation.
Of course, in PCL's case, you can't unring the bell. But, he is where he is, on the inside looking out, and it is easy for him to say now that he regrets his decision. Others are where they are. There are a lot of pilots and a lot of hiring boards, but aviation remains a close fraternity. Just do it the traditional way. Nothing wrong with an MAPD or Comair way, either, but just don't do anything that would make people believe that you cut in line. E.g., if you're an MAPD grad, think hard before succumbing to the Freedom Air lorelei.
I know this is highly charged. Frank O's Freedom alter-ego reviles me (but is typical Mesa), but don't screw around on the comm. Don't forget, you have your pax' lives in your hands.
It depends on which aspect of Mesa you're discussing.flying4food said:
I worked at Mesa Airlines Pilot Development aka San Juan Pilot Training. It is not P-F-T. Most certainly, students are indoctrinated thoroughly in Mesa line procedures and can interview at Mesa, but the Commercial-Instrument-Multi they earn is good anywhere. Not all MAPD students get "the interview." Not all MAPD interviewees make it through class. MAPD is 100% legit, but another way for Mesa to save money on crew training and make money at the same time. One thing at which Mesa has always excelled is making money.
Mesa also has an ATP program, in which you can get your ATP with a Mesa check airman who is a DE. Of course, you have to pay. Pass the first time, and you get "the interview." Bust, and be rechecked, and you get your ATP but no interview. Some people pass the first time. Some people don't. You pay your money, you takes your chances. Call it "pay for interview." I call it another Mesa money-making machine.
Then, you have the PACE program. I am not familiar with all the fine details, but I know that it involves taking Mesa line training. You pay for it and get an interview. Inasmuch as you don't receive a type rating or certificate out of the deal, that, to me, would definitely be P-F-T.
Of course, without a doubt, Gulfstream is P-F-T. P-F-T goes back at least ten years, when I was in the commuter airline job market. In 1992 and before, when times were bad, you about had to P-F-T or forget about commuter jobs. Of course, P-F-Ters get to cut in front of the line ahead of more legitimate job seekers. I already had interviewed at non P-F-T companies, so I reasonably believed that I was a legitimate job seeker. The notion of paying for any job, in any business, turned my stomach, no matter how badly I wanted the job, notwithstanding the harm it does to your colleagues. I refused to P-F-T.
I can't say that you can equate P-F-T directly to scabbing, but it is a distant cousin, in my .02 opinion. There is a correlation.
Of course, in PCL's case, you can't unring the bell. But, he is where he is, on the inside looking out, and it is easy for him to say now that he regrets his decision. Others are where they are. There are a lot of pilots and a lot of hiring boards, but aviation remains a close fraternity. Just do it the traditional way. Nothing wrong with an MAPD or Comair way, either, but just don't do anything that would make people believe that you cut in line. E.g., if you're an MAPD grad, think hard before succumbing to the Freedom Air lorelei.
I know this is highly charged. Frank O's Freedom alter-ego reviles me (but is typical Mesa), but don't screw around on the comm. Don't forget, you have your pax' lives in your hands.
Last edited:
Bluto
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Gulfstream PFT?
Bobbysamd,
I have to disagree with you on one point regarding PFT. Gulfstream is PFT but there's more to it than that. I guess my concern is that PFT under the strictest sense means that an airline hires an employee but that employee foots the bill for all or some of their initial training. After that, the person is an employee. At Gulfstream, you most definitely pay for your initial training, but even when flying the line, you continue to pay. You are more customer than employee. I know you are well aware of these facts, I just want to point out to others that those who paid in the early '90s are not on the same level as Gulfstream F.O.s with no professional experience. Times were tough back then, some chose to PFT, others didn't. I know many refused to pay on principle. Good for them. I would just be careful considering all PFT'ers as damaged goods. The vast majority of people hired in the early '90s had to do it. Today there are other choices.
Bobbysamd,
I have to disagree with you on one point regarding PFT. Gulfstream is PFT but there's more to it than that. I guess my concern is that PFT under the strictest sense means that an airline hires an employee but that employee foots the bill for all or some of their initial training. After that, the person is an employee. At Gulfstream, you most definitely pay for your initial training, but even when flying the line, you continue to pay. You are more customer than employee. I know you are well aware of these facts, I just want to point out to others that those who paid in the early '90s are not on the same level as Gulfstream F.O.s with no professional experience. Times were tough back then, some chose to PFT, others didn't. I know many refused to pay on principle. Good for them. I would just be careful considering all PFT'ers as damaged goods. The vast majority of people hired in the early '90s had to do it. Today there are other choices.
flying4food
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Brother Bluto,
I agree with you 110% about not screwing around on the radio, there are other ways. However I'm confused on your last post regarding Gulfstream. You say Mesa isn't PFT, not like gulfstream?? I'll have to beg your pardon,, it appears Mesa is just as much pft as any of the otheres. You pay your fee, show up, go through the same FAA approved course for your ratings. Or in the case of some, you show up with your ratings, and pay for first officer training. Either way you look at it, the airline is trying to defer some of the high cost of training back to the root cause, the pilots. Maybe, just maybe, if some of those greedy pilots before us had fulfilled their obligation to some of these regionals, hung around a year or two, then moved on, maybe pft wouldn't have became so popular?? I don't know, I don't have all the answers!!
I must ask, what is so unprofessional about going to mesa, gulfstream, tab international, eagle-jet or any one of the other schools, paying your money and fast tracking?? It appears these places all offer something that CFI/MEI will never get you, atleast not for a very long time!!! That is valuable turbine time, in the 121 or 135 environment. When talking to pilot recruiters and chief pilots at various AIR inc events, they encourage it, so long as you do your research and find the right program for you.
It appears mesa & gulfstream are both good 121 carriers, and I'm sure there are those that go through mesa, never get hired, just like any othere school, it appears these two are very similiar, if not the same, they look like a duck, quack like a duck and walk like a duck!!!
So by your rationale, the pft'ers at mesa are just as much to blame as the pft'ers at Eagle aviation??? I for one can't hold one back for doing what they can to survive, to an extent. (for the record, I don't agree with Freedom at all!!!) If said person goes through pft and doesn't get hired, obviously they weren't pilot material. Instructing isn't for everyone, besides that, right now the market is flooded with CFI's. My outfit just hired a new guy about 2 weeks ago, he only has 3 students, how can one make a living off that. I only instruct part-time, and contract the rest.
As an outsider looking in, it appears that some are upset that pft exsists. Now, someone can get into the right seat of an airliner, and never flight instruct, or as it is said, "never pay your dues". That doesn't make much sence, other than being jealous that one couldn't pft themselves???
Maybe we shouldn't beat each other up, after all, you never know who'll end up in the cockpit with you!!!!
I agree with you 110% about not screwing around on the radio, there are other ways. However I'm confused on your last post regarding Gulfstream. You say Mesa isn't PFT, not like gulfstream?? I'll have to beg your pardon,, it appears Mesa is just as much pft as any of the otheres. You pay your fee, show up, go through the same FAA approved course for your ratings. Or in the case of some, you show up with your ratings, and pay for first officer training. Either way you look at it, the airline is trying to defer some of the high cost of training back to the root cause, the pilots. Maybe, just maybe, if some of those greedy pilots before us had fulfilled their obligation to some of these regionals, hung around a year or two, then moved on, maybe pft wouldn't have became so popular?? I don't know, I don't have all the answers!!
I must ask, what is so unprofessional about going to mesa, gulfstream, tab international, eagle-jet or any one of the other schools, paying your money and fast tracking?? It appears these places all offer something that CFI/MEI will never get you, atleast not for a very long time!!! That is valuable turbine time, in the 121 or 135 environment. When talking to pilot recruiters and chief pilots at various AIR inc events, they encourage it, so long as you do your research and find the right program for you.
It appears mesa & gulfstream are both good 121 carriers, and I'm sure there are those that go through mesa, never get hired, just like any othere school, it appears these two are very similiar, if not the same, they look like a duck, quack like a duck and walk like a duck!!!
So by your rationale, the pft'ers at mesa are just as much to blame as the pft'ers at Eagle aviation??? I for one can't hold one back for doing what they can to survive, to an extent. (for the record, I don't agree with Freedom at all!!!) If said person goes through pft and doesn't get hired, obviously they weren't pilot material. Instructing isn't for everyone, besides that, right now the market is flooded with CFI's. My outfit just hired a new guy about 2 weeks ago, he only has 3 students, how can one make a living off that. I only instruct part-time, and contract the rest.
As an outsider looking in, it appears that some are upset that pft exsists. Now, someone can get into the right seat of an airliner, and never flight instruct, or as it is said, "never pay your dues". That doesn't make much sence, other than being jealous that one couldn't pft themselves???
Maybe we shouldn't beat each other up, after all, you never know who'll end up in the cockpit with you!!!!
Can somebody tell me what the difference between Mesa and Freedom is? IMHO, Mesa is just getting a taste of what they've been doing to their major partners for over a decade. Mesa has no scope protection, therefore freedom is totally legal. This isn't meant as flame bait just my observation. BTW, Duane Woerth personally signed America West's contract. Their contract allows for 90 rjs. Basically, ALPA has allowed all this to happen. So if it's okay that America West pilots lose 70 and 90 seat jets, IMO, it's okay for Mesa to lose them too.
PA-44Typed
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“my relative newness to the industry”
“my relative newness to the industry” I guess I’ll take that as a complement. I have however been in the aviation industry for over 10 years now, just not as a pilot. Then in 2000 when the express carriers were hiring pilots at an alarming rate, I decided to go for it. The reason that I have a “militant stance” on PFT is that if these 20 year olds with daddy’s money would stop buying there way into this industry then guys like myself who are more qualified would be able to find a F#$king job.
Now back to the ordinal question of this thread…….
The guys who left MESA for Freedom are not doing the rest of us any favors. The MESA pilots had an opportunity to fly the new CRJs with a pay raise to boot. It was because of their greed that Orsteen(sp?) did what he did. In this economy the MESA pilots should have taken the pay rate originally offered. The few of you who went to college might now the “Law of supply and demand.” Well, guess what? We (PILOTS) are NOT in demand. I don’t know if Freedom hired anyone off the street but, if they did, would you call them “scabs” too? The MESA pilots need to remember that there are thousands of highly qualified pilots out of work that would jump at the chance to get back to work.
“my relative newness to the industry” I guess I’ll take that as a complement. I have however been in the aviation industry for over 10 years now, just not as a pilot. Then in 2000 when the express carriers were hiring pilots at an alarming rate, I decided to go for it. The reason that I have a “militant stance” on PFT is that if these 20 year olds with daddy’s money would stop buying there way into this industry then guys like myself who are more qualified would be able to find a F#$king job.
Now back to the ordinal question of this thread…….
The guys who left MESA for Freedom are not doing the rest of us any favors. The MESA pilots had an opportunity to fly the new CRJs with a pay raise to boot. It was because of their greed that Orsteen(sp?) did what he did. In this economy the MESA pilots should have taken the pay rate originally offered. The few of you who went to college might now the “Law of supply and demand.” Well, guess what? We (PILOTS) are NOT in demand. I don’t know if Freedom hired anyone off the street but, if they did, would you call them “scabs” too? The MESA pilots need to remember that there are thousands of highly qualified pilots out of work that would jump at the chance to get back to work.
ERJpusher
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I don't necessarily agree or disagree with programs like Gulfstream. If I had the money to do something like that when I was training, I may have considered it. However, when people are paying for their own training at Flight Safety or wherever after being hired, how can you say anything bad about that? Consider yourself fortunate that you didn't have to fork out that kind of cash for your job. It is not a matter of principle to pay for your own training. It is just a necessary evil sometimes. My father was hired by a commuter in the late 80's and was required to pay $10000 up front for training in a Metro III. He had 2000 flight instructing on nights and weekends for almost 15 years. Believe me, he paid his dues. When his time came, he was required to pay for his own training, because that was pretty much the only way to get a job. Anything wrong with that? I don't think so. There was no principle or ego involved. He was just doing what had to be done. If the pilot pool becomes too saturated or the airlines become financially worse than they already are, don't be surprised to see PFT once again become a reality for most regional carriers. Some companies like Pinnacle are still doing it. I don't look at their pilots as bad, just unfortunate for having to spend a lot of extra money for something I got for free (with a two year training agreement, that is).
flying4food
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PA44typed,
What makes you think you are more qualified than anybody else, someone who has pft'ed or another flight instructor?? Are you more qualified than a person who has 200 hours of multi-turbine time in a 135 or 121 environment?? Are you more qualified than a pilot who has already been through a 135 or 121 check-ride?? Probably not to a prospective employer, they want the most bang for the buck.
From talking with several major pilot's the 121 check-ride is no joke!! And there are failure's. Knowing that, put yourself in a managers position, you have a 1500 hr MEI, who has 400 hrs of multi instruction time, all part 91. Next resume you look at is a 700 hr pilot, with 200 hrs multi-turbine, part 135, flying in and out of busy class b airports, everynight!!! I'd put even money on the latter!!!
So now it comes to this 20 year old punk with daddy's money, what about the 42 year old with a family, changing careers??? What about the retired pro athlete that has no desire to instruct 20 year old punks???
I think when the dust settles, what it comes down to is the person behind the resume!!!
What makes you think you are more qualified than anybody else, someone who has pft'ed or another flight instructor?? Are you more qualified than a person who has 200 hours of multi-turbine time in a 135 or 121 environment?? Are you more qualified than a pilot who has already been through a 135 or 121 check-ride?? Probably not to a prospective employer, they want the most bang for the buck.
From talking with several major pilot's the 121 check-ride is no joke!! And there are failure's. Knowing that, put yourself in a managers position, you have a 1500 hr MEI, who has 400 hrs of multi instruction time, all part 91. Next resume you look at is a 700 hr pilot, with 200 hrs multi-turbine, part 135, flying in and out of busy class b airports, everynight!!! I'd put even money on the latter!!!
So now it comes to this 20 year old punk with daddy's money, what about the 42 year old with a family, changing careers??? What about the retired pro athlete that has no desire to instruct 20 year old punks???
I think when the dust settles, what it comes down to is the person behind the resume!!!
PA-44Typed
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Brother Francis
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rattler
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If any of you still are having a problem understanding what Freedom Airlines managment stands for you can reference www.alpa.org. It is free and you don't have to be a member to view it.
Freight Dog
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Gulfstream - that scab Cooper is one smart fella. You have morons lining up to fly as a *REQUIRED* crewmember AND pay him for the privilege to do so (wtf?!?), while thousands of pilots are out on the street. If you had his type of mentality, would you decline the cash? Hell no you wouldn't because it calls for having morals and integrity. The answer is not in bashing Gulfstream, the answer is in exposing what effects does PFT and them paying for jobs have on the industry and their futureand pointing the upcomers in the right direction instead of letting them fall victim to Gulfstreams and Eagle Jets.
PCL, yes you f**ked up by going to Gulfstream. No doubt. Sure, it landed you a CRJ job, but how do you really feel about it? Would you talk people out of going to Gulfstream and what would be your reasoning to talk them out of making that mistake when it landed you a CRJ job? I'll be waiting for an answer.
As for Freedom Airlines, I do think that a list is appropriate especially if they jumpseat around on Mesa ID's. That is a text-book definition of jumpseat fraud and as such, I'd get those guys arrested for attempting to do that. If they use legitimate Freedom ID's, then it's up to each individual captain to make the decision on whether to carry them. Personally, I would question them first, and make my decision based on how they respond before I'd sign their ACM request. I'd question their motives for working for a shop like Freedom, and question whether they realize what they are doing to Mesa and AWA pilots, and what kind of precedent are they setting to the rest of us. I would still probably let them on. However, if Mesa pilots walk and Freedom flies struck work, then they are scabs, and will not be welcome on my jumpseat.
My .02 cents
PCL, yes you f**ked up by going to Gulfstream. No doubt. Sure, it landed you a CRJ job, but how do you really feel about it? Would you talk people out of going to Gulfstream and what would be your reasoning to talk them out of making that mistake when it landed you a CRJ job? I'll be waiting for an answer.
As for Freedom Airlines, I do think that a list is appropriate especially if they jumpseat around on Mesa ID's. That is a text-book definition of jumpseat fraud and as such, I'd get those guys arrested for attempting to do that. If they use legitimate Freedom ID's, then it's up to each individual captain to make the decision on whether to carry them. Personally, I would question them first, and make my decision based on how they respond before I'd sign their ACM request. I'd question their motives for working for a shop like Freedom, and question whether they realize what they are doing to Mesa and AWA pilots, and what kind of precedent are they setting to the rest of us. I would still probably let them on. However, if Mesa pilots walk and Freedom flies struck work, then they are scabs, and will not be welcome on my jumpseat.
My .02 cents
maddog805
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biatches
Someone send me the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** list PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
[email protected]
Spank you
Someone send me the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** list PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
[email protected]
Spank you
Re: biatches
It's available here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freemesaairlinesforum/
I saw Cisco aka Freedumb at Tucson today. No one keyed over them which is good. I still gave them the one finger salute though.
maddog805 said:
It's available here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freemesaairlinesforum/
I saw Cisco aka Freedumb at Tucson today. No one keyed over them which is good. I still gave them the one finger salute though.
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