Freedom callsign?

[flying4food]

Guy's, Guy's, help me out here!!! Who are we to pass judgement on how a person obtains their rating's??? If a doctor were to self study, go to the medical boards and pass, so be it. Obviously he met the requirements of the board. If an attorney wants to self study, then take the bar exam, so be it. If a pilot does not want to be an instructor, for what ever reason, and wants to fast track, so be it. Does he meet the requirements set forth by the Fed's??

By the way, I've met several CFI's that were less than professional. Since you are a CFI, does that automatically make you a pro??? I don't think so.

Freight Dog, that's your opinion that he messed up by going to gulfstream, so should you be-little him for that?? Again who are you to pass judgement. I have pointed several young pilot's towards those school's, mesa, gulfstream, eagle, etc. Intresting enough, I've talked with 2 or 3 captains at majors who wanted their kids to pft vs CFI, again a preference. It appears to me the training is identical, part 121.

So how is he hurting you or me for that matter??? When a regional airline receives more than 50 resumes a week, 95% of those CFI's, how do they pick?? If you can obtain training, that makes you stand out, what's wrong with that??? It's not like he went sneaking in after hours and stole it!!!

It appears to me PCL is doing really well, he is flying an RJ at a growing company, from what I've read here, he did everything right, and he should be proud. This seems to be part of the capitolistic society that we have created, you shouldn't give others a beat down for that!!!

Peace!!!!

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

Well, for one thing, doctors cannot self-study for their credentials. They have to attend an "approved" medical school. It used to be that one could read law and then take the bar exam. But, so-called "law readers" had to serve an apprenticeship under a licensed attorney for several years before they could become full-fledged attorneys. I realize that Abraham Lincoln read law and became a lawyer, but that was in the 1830s.

I realize we've had dozens and dozens of P-F-T discussions. I say again, in my case, I was not about to to pay for a job. Absolutely, a job I would have liked, but it was still - a job. Paying for a job sets a bad precedent for individuals as well as the group as a whole. How can you expect any respect from management, much less from your peers, if you are willing to pay for your job? I met every qualification at the time. Therefore, I should have been considered on that basis and not because of my finances. That's one reason why I feel that P-F-T hurt me.

Face it, they will be more than glad to "hire" you if you will give them money. And, they will be glad to wash you out of training and take your deposit. No one will convince me that does not happen with P-F-T. When money changes hands, no one cares anymore - because they have your money.

Now, regarding the airline pilots who want their children to P-F-T, I submit that many of them are in their own little worlds and have no clue about the big-picture implications of P-F-T and its impact on pilots as a whole.

Maybe PCL, individually, by P-F-Ting, isn't impacting the vast majority of pilots wanting the job he has. But, undoubtedly, there are many, many more who P-F-T, and thereby cut in line in front of the more qualified (and, maybe, more deserving). Once more, how do you like it when someone cuts in front of you in the checkout line at the supermarket? Or, my favorite, when someone cuts you off in traffic? How did you like it when some kid in school pushed in front of you at the drinking fountain? Think about it.

Finally, while P-F-T airline "experience" might catch some pilot recruiters' attention, it most certainly will catch the "attention" of the captain's interview board. Yes, I realize that many captains have P-F-T'd, but many have not. Want to risk that kind of blackball? Think about that one, too.

Once more, the analysis to determine if something is P-F-T is if the training can be used at any place outside the company in question. Therefore, MAPD ab initio training is not P-F-T because you earn an FAA Commercial-Multi-Instrument which is recognized outside of Mesa. For that matter, neither is CAA. All ratings earned in Sanford are good anywhere.

Oh, and one more thing. Anything that Kit Darby of AIR whatever and his Pied Pipers of the Pilot Shortage and other lackeys might encourage should go through one ear and out the other. The ten-thousand furloughees are proof positive that there is no pilot shortage; moreover, Kit has to deliver customers to his P-F-T vendors!

 

[Wiggums]

Guy's, Guy's, help me out here!!! Who are we to pass judgement on how a person obtains their rating's???

It appears to me PCL is doing really well, he is flying an RJ at a growing company, from what I've read here, he did everything right, and he should be proud. This seems to be part of the capitolistic society that we have created, you shouldn't give others a beat down for that!!!

Peace!!!!

Yeah, exactly my point. PCL did what he needed to do get ahead and so do the pilots that work at Freedom. What gives PCL the right to critize this group of pilots?

Azpilot: Yeah, I'd really feel bad if some CFI gave me the finger from his Cessna as I cruise by in my RJ.

 

[Freight Dog]

Flying4food, I am going to quote PCL's ENTIRE post here:

PCL wrote:

You're right, I did PFT. It's a decision I have recently come to regret, dispite the fact that it got me into a CRJ with such low time. If I had known what I know now about how the industry works, I never would have PFTed. When I got into this industry I heard from marketing people telling me that their programs of PFT were the fast track to the airline world. Unfortunately, I didn't know of this website several years ago when I started my training. If I had, then I would have know before hand not to make this mistake. People sometimes make mistakes. Maybe someday this one will come back to bite me in the a$$. I don't know. If it does, I'll just have to take it. I can't undo what I have already done.

--------

Now, he is working for a respectable airline and sees what and how PFT works.

The way it works is simple - you take a position and instead of hiring a pilot and paying him/her for the job, you take someone who pays YOU to work all in the interests of "getting ahead" and getting that coveted airline job. Great... now that there are very few airlines hiring, and there are thousands of qualified pilots furloughed, what are you doing by literally paying to work? Are you doing yourself any service? Are you doing your career any service? Are you doing this profession any service?

You see, jobs are dwindling down, and regional airlines used to be places where you'd put in a couple years before a major called you, and that is when you're really gonna start caring, right? Well, majors have thousands of pilots on the street and it will be YEARS before they hire anyone off the street, and when they do, the market will be filled by very qualified pilots. Now, you have to endure those years. You are not getting any younger, and many have families to support. Now you start to think... well, it'll be awhile before I get a shot to move on, now I gotta think about improving this airline and make it a decent place to work since I'll be staying here a few years. But see, you've already demonstrated to the management that you were basically whoring yourself for flight time and didn't care much about anything else and it will be a very tough sell to improve your work conditions. Ask Comair pilots who walked the line for 89 days. They just STARTED to get the ball rolling to improve the regional airline contracts. Mesa is next, and looks like it will be a big fight. My point is that PFT screws EVERYONE. You may be thinking, oh great, I'm gonna get some Part 121/135 time real fast and move on up. Sure you will... where?

You say, 95% of regional applicants are CFI's, and who will the airline pick, someone with supposed quality time from Gulfstream or a CFI? How about I add one more category.. someone offering to pay to sit in the right seat? What does that do for actual jobs, let alone liveable wage?

I hope this clarifies somewhat how PFT is hurting you, and ESPECIALLY you Flying4food since you are an up and coming pilot who is apparently still not flying for a regional airline. If you have any more questions, please post them.

Oh, and to answer your question on who am I to question how people get ahead in this industry... I am just another airline pilot, a dues-paying ALPA member who actually believes in integrity and improving this bruised and battered profession. I am also someone who also happens to have never instructed, yet who got paid for every flight hour flown after obtaining a commercial pilot certificate, who honorably worked through the ranks to build up flight time the honorable way - by working hard and getting paid. I am also someone who may end up sitting on the interview board interviewing you for the job of your dreams.

 

[flying4food]

So if I understand you right, the only way to get an airline job in the U.S. is to flight instruct??? If one doesn't "pay their dues" then they should be black-balled or shunned.

Some of you don't realize how good we have it in this free country, the ability to debate topics such as this, this right to get an education, it's all about choices. And to think that someone would sit on a hiring board and deliberatly sabotage someone's attempt at employment, based soley on an opinion!! Is that right?? To think you would deny a qualified person a chance at a job, not based on his/her qualifications and skills, but his/her training or how it was obtained, because you don't believe in it.

That to me sounds like discrimination, you are basing your hiring decision on a pre-disposed thought or notion. So once you have all the pft'ers weeded out, who's next??? After all, now you'll have a club of nothing but CFI's. Where does it stop??

I don't know, we've talked about this a lot at the office, people with aviation backgrounds and those without. I went so far as to bring up this web site and let others look!!! Everyone was amazed!! Oh well, More conversation for the office tomorrow!!!

Peace!!

 

[climbhappy]

yes its a debate! it evokes emotions.

i'll admit when i picked up the latest flying mag and saw an ad for gulstream with a guy who was hired by Pinnacle with 450 hours
REALLY PISSED ME OFF and i'm opened minded.

i think for me and maybe others, that PFT is really an "express pass" to the cockpit and it it is similar to me to the country club syndrome. this cash buys a prestige job, one i would love to have.

The problem comes when this express pass devalues all of the sacrifice myself and others have made to get where we are and gosh darnett, we still stand outside of the dining room by the maitre'd while this other guy gets seated first and we've been waiting for an hour.

is it debatable sure, is it wrong? no. does it suck? yes. can we do anything about it? no. can we sanction those through legal collective action like no jumpseat? yes.

in the scheme of things, should i spend one more ounce of grey matter on it? no.

 

[bobbysamd]

Paying dues

So if I understand you right, the only way to get an airline job in the U.S. is to flight instruct???

Not necessarily. Such entry-level jobs as banner-towing are available to 250-hour pilots. These jobs are extremely hard to get because of the plethora of new, 250-hour pilots out there. There are some quasi-P-F-T schemes/scams for such jobs that take advantage of these poor souls. As a practical matter, flight instruction jobs are easier to get. While I believe that you miss out on a lot of learning by not instructing, if you can get a non-instructing pilot (and non-P-F-T) job at 250 hours, then more power to you.

If one doesn't "pay their dues" then they should be black-balled or shunned.

Well, look at it this way. I worked in broadcasting for many years and worked hard and put up with a great deal of nonsense to finally get to a decent radio station. In my last job, I was hired to work days. I had worked nights for a few years, so I was looking forward to getting a life. I'm put on nights after only several months working days. I was promised that I would be returned to days after a suitable night reporter was found. My boss knew I was not happy working nights (For one thing, it greatly interfered with my flying and training and he knew that!). It wasn't a matter of months; it was more like three years, with maybe a month or two at times working days. As a matter of fact, I never really had a really regular shift for the 7½ years I worked at that station, except for this horrendous night shift.

During the time I was working nights, people who were working days came and left. Those vacancies were filled by less-experienced people than me, who had not "paid dues." So, how would you feel if this happened to you? I'm sure that most people would feel the same way. Hence, another reason why P-F-T is resented.

Hope that provides a little more clarification on why cutting in front of others is so disliked.

 

[azpilot]

Azpilot: Yeah, I'd really feel bad if some CFI gave me the finger from his Cessna as I cruise by in my RJ.

Too bad I am not a CFI and too bad I wasn't in a Cessna. I don't really give a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** what the guys think anyway. If they saw it, which I doubt, and felt like saluting me back fine with them. Just a friendly reminder of what a lot of people think about them. Someday a Freedom pilot might feel really bad when I am on the hiring board of an airline they are applying to or others which have the same opinion as me are and we walk the Freedom pilot to the door. This industry is all about connections. I know people who are losing friends and chances to fly at a major because of their decision to fly for Freedom.

- AZPilot

 

[Mongolikecandy]

Flying4Food wrote "Guy's, Guy's, help me out here!!! Who are we to pass judgement on how a person obtains their rating's???"

It's not about how a person gets his ratings. When a pilot is working on his ratings, he is not taking a job away from anyone. It's what he does with those ratings afterwards. That is the real problem with places like Gulfstream. People willing to pay money to be a first officer are taking jobs away from others who are QUALIFIED to fly right seat. Simply put. That is the problem with PFT.

 

[SSDD]

It cracks me up when people want to rewrite history. A lot of guys at Comair and ASA PFT'd back in the 90's when a lot of us were asking them not to do it. Now they justify it by saying that everybody was doing it back then, BULL$hit!!!...Wisconsin, Skywest(yeah, the non union guys) and Horizon have NEVER been PFT.

PFT in any form is wrong, it demeans us all.

 

[jetdriven]

Mesa has no scope protection, therefore freedom is totally legal.

actually they do. but it says "all future flying for mesa airlines will use the mesa list."

except Freedom is part of the Mesa Air GROUP, which was concieved after the contract, and to get around the scope.

we didnt take anyones flying, USAIR management gave it to us. We are not owned by USAIR.

 

[jetdriven]

It was because of their greed that Orsteen(sp?) did what he did. In this economy the MESA pilots should have taken the pay rate originally offered.

acutally it wasnt the payrates so much as the workrules (nonexistent) and the fact we had to break ranks of the union and the seniority list to go there. 98% of MAG pilots turned it down. We'll get thise jets, but it'll be one contract and one llist.

just wait.

oh, and those payrates were 5% over the CJL-65 rate, which puts us flying a 90-seat jet for 15% less than Industry average for a 50-seater. You should be glad we didnt lower the bar for the regionals with rates like that. not to mention the 1.15 perdiem and no workrules.]

 

[Country Wild]

I have been in this industry a very long time and an ALPA member just as long. Aviation goes through its cycles, PFT, scabs...etc...etc. Everyone makes mistakes, but I think that there are too many people willing to fly for nothing and in times like this they will. If there would have been a driving force many many many years ago regional guys would be making better money. But there wasn't, and people will continue to fly for nothing to continue to fly. I think that many of low time individuals being hired at Freedom do not have a full grasp of the aviation as a whole. They do not realize what their actions might cause or the precedent that they may set. Many of you that are upset might do the same thing if it was between being a waiter or fly for Freedom, because jobs are so few and far between. When I have interviewed pilots I look to see who they flew for and how they got there. I prefer to hire well rounded pilots who are college graduates. Wether they flew for Freedom or were PFT is not relevant, but if the have a four year degree is. People are people, we have all made mistakes the secret is to learn from them not crucify them.

 

[becket]

Jetdriven,

Okay, so if US Airways managment gave you mainline flying, and that was okay with you, Why can't you draw the same connection that Mesa Managment is simply giving freedom more flying? Why is that not okay? To coin a phrase from you guys, you guys need to "wake up to the new economic reality". Freedom is cheaper. That's the bottom line. It was okay for US Airways to lose jobs to Mesa, and it is okay that Mesa is losing jobs to freedom and it will be okay when Freedom II takes jobs from Freedom I.

Basically, Mesa guys are fine flying everybody elses routes. They justify all of their flying because it suits their specific greedy desires. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, Freedom pilots are called scabs. Call it Karma. I remember reading endless whining about US Airways' scope clause. You guys are getting a crash course on why scope is important. My only question now is how long will it be before ornstein starts to transfer the 50 seaters over to freedom. There is nothing to stop him. It's all perfectly legal.

 

[azpilot]

Apparently Azpilot does not have a price tag on his soul, for his integrity he will be rewarded. In time he will get to flip the bird from the cockpit of a major airline at the same Freedumb pilot in the same RJ. What AZpilot understands is that there is such a thing as karma in such a small industry.

Glad someone agrees. Well put. If the industry keeps bringing wages down it will end up not being an attractive career for me and many others. What I think it is a fair rate may be low for some and to high for others so there is no point in debating that.

If enough people had a backbone Freedom could have never started. This would have meant Mesa would be flying these jets. The pilots at Mesa are already paid much less than other similar carriers so Freedom just makes things worse.

For me Freedom is wrong. As much as it would sadden me not to fly I will never work for an outfit like Freedom. I will never cross a picket line either. Folks the majority at the present time dislike Freedom. The winds may change but you are jeopardizing your career by flying for an outfit like that.

- AZPilot

 

[bobbysamd]

More non-P-F-T

Wisconsin, Skywest(yeah, the non union guys) and Horizon have NEVER been PFT.

I was a street interview at Mesa in 1990. Nothing about P-F-T. Also at WestAir/United Express, about the time that Mesa bought it. No P-F-T. I also was a street interview at Comair and a street cattle-callee at Express I. No P-F-T. I was an AE street interview in the fall of '90. No P-F-T. I had a colleague who was a Wings West hire. She was not P-F-T.

Just the same, there were still a bunch which were P-F-T. My recall of P-F-T history says it began with great force about the second quarter of 1991. That's when so many commuters, including Comair, adopted such "programs." It may have abated a little in 1994 and more so in the late '90s when the airlines decided they needed pilots again and had plenty from which to choose.

 

[Freight Dog]

So if I understand you right, the only way to get an airline job in the U.S. is to flight instruct??? If one doesn't "pay their dues" then they should be black-balled or shunned.

Flying4food,

I never instructed. I don't even have CFI ratings. Yet, I spent a lot of time on the Internet looking for jobs, making phone calls, trying to get ahead in this industry. I made it. I worked my way up thru flying skydivers, flying air tours, cargo, now at a regional in the left seat. NOT ONCE did I pay for flight time after my commercial pilot license. I got paid instead.


Some of you don't realize how good we have it in this free country, the ability to debate topics such as this, this right to get an education, it's all about choices. And to think that someone would sit on a hiring board and deliberatly sabotage someone's attempt at employment, based soley on an opinion!! Is that right?? To think you would deny a qualified person a chance at a job, not based on his/her qualifications and skills, but his/her training or how it was obtained, because you don't believe in it.

I would deny a person employment due to lack of integrity, you bet. If a Gulfstream B1900 "grad" was interviewing and I was the interviewer, I would ask him a couple of simple questions:

What did you contribute to your previous job? What positive contributions did you make to our profession?

I can bet you that a CFI would not have a difficult time answering these questions. I'll bet you that a Gulfstream guy would choke, but it would be interesting to watch them.

 

[Freight Dog]

You are right. It is. I didn't even think of it until you said it. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[captjim]

Way to go US Airways!


US Airways MEC update for Wednesday, December 18, with one new item:
The MEC reconvened its fourth quarter meeting today in PIT and took action on 15 items, including the following:

The MEC conducted an MEC vice chairman election and elected Captain Kim Snider as MEC vice chairman. Effective January 1, 2003, Captain Snider will succeed Captain Bill Pollock, who will assume the office of MEC chairman on that date. The remaining term is from January 1, 2003, to March 22, 2004.

The MEC directed the MEC officers and Negotiating Committee to inform US Airways management that the MEC, especially in light of our ALPA pilots’ significant financial contribution to the survival of US Airways, objects to any potential or contemplated code sharing arrangement with Freedom Air unless its pilots are represented by ALPA. The US Airways MEC supports the actions of ALPA International’s Executive Council and Executive Board in opposing the formation of Freedom Air as a non-union entity, and directed that all furloughed US Airways pilots be notified of the Executive Board, Executive Council and MEC’s opposition to Freedom Air. Any pilot on the US Airways seniority list that accepts employment with Freedom Air will lose all US Airways MEC-sponsored ALPA privileges, including but not limited to jumpseat, health insurance, web access, furlough administrator access, and ALPA-provided job search programs. If applicable, the US Airways MEC will file Article VIII charges against any US Airways seniority list pilot accepting or remaining in employment with Freedom Air after February 1, 2003, for engaging in action detrimental to the Association.

This MEC action is in response to Mesa’s establishment of Freedom Airlines as a non-union, alter ego runaway shop carrier, operating small jets on a separate operating certificate while the Mesa pilots are in contract negotiations. Mesa Group management is using Freedom Airlines to undermine the collective bargaining strength of the Mesa, CC Air and Air Midwest pilots.

 

[flying4food]

Wow, Freight Dog is that statement policy at your current employer or is that your personal position and stand?? That you would deny a person employment based on integrity of the pft question?? I wonder if the cheif pilot or director of Ops feels the same way?? What about the CEO and shareholders?? It sounds like you are making decisions for the company based on your personal feelings??

I would think that type of policy would be up to the management of said company. It seems as though you have taken it upon yourself to set policy and standards. Maybe you should look within for the answer to the integrity question???