Freedom callsign?

[KeroseneDream]

Re: Language police

Doh! Mr. Kerosene,
I think you meant "...their knees...". Otherwise, however, I agree with your interpretation.

Haha,

I guess that's the difference between internet message boards and formal writing. Either way we all get the point. Kind of funny how discussions stray completely away from their original intent.

 

[g159av8tor]

Bull $hit. It all depends on the management.

Freedom being non-union is not the issue. It's whip-saw tactics being used and reason Freedom was formed that are the problems.

I agree, mostly, and should have illustrated my thought more completely. In the larger scheme of things, any non-union shop is a liability; though SKW and Freedom are at separate ends of the spectrum. I applaud SKW's management in keeping the pilot corps content. SKW pilots can never raise the bar in the industry, they only match it. I know they are a good company...

Solidarity is strength in numbers.

Tailwinds...

 

[skypine69]

So do Freedumb pilots have MESA ids or not? I had a jumpseater a couple of weeks ago and I asked him if he was Freedumb and he said no and that they atually call him the nite before a trip and cancel some of it so they can run a Freedumb plane on it. A Freedumb pilot will not ride on my airplane as a jumpseater!

 

[flying4food]

If I'm not mistaken, isn't Mesa a PFT outfit also???

 

[azpilot]

So do Freedumb pilots have MESA ids or not? I had a jumpseater a couple of weeks ago and I asked him if he was Freedumb and he said no and that they atually call him the nite before a trip and cancel some of it so they can run a Freedumb plane on it. A Freedumb pilot will not ride on my airplane as a jumpseater!

They may have their old ID's but they are supposed to use Freedom badges. I heard Mesa is paying for positive space tickets for a lot of the Freedumb pilots to commute! Go figure.

Best thing to do would be to carry the list I guess.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Re: PCL

I agree with the PA-44, however, that your relative newness to the industry and your experience level are incongruous with your militant stance.

It is good for a laugh though.

 

[bobbysamd]

Mesa P-F-T

If I'm not mistaken, isn't Mesa a PFT outfit also???

It depends on which aspect of Mesa you're discussing.

I worked at Mesa Airlines Pilot Development aka San Juan Pilot Training. It is not P-F-T. Most certainly, students are indoctrinated thoroughly in Mesa line procedures and can interview at Mesa, but the Commercial-Instrument-Multi they earn is good anywhere. Not all MAPD students get "the interview." Not all MAPD interviewees make it through class. MAPD is 100% legit, but another way for Mesa to save money on crew training and make money at the same time. One thing at which Mesa has always excelled is making money.

Mesa also has an ATP program, in which you can get your ATP with a Mesa check airman who is a DE. Of course, you have to pay. Pass the first time, and you get "the interview." Bust, and be rechecked, and you get your ATP but no interview. Some people pass the first time. Some people don't. You pay your money, you takes your chances. Call it "pay for interview." I call it another Mesa money-making machine.

Then, you have the PACE program. I am not familiar with all the fine details, but I know that it involves taking Mesa line training. You pay for it and get an interview. Inasmuch as you don't receive a type rating or certificate out of the deal, that, to me, would definitely be P-F-T.

Of course, without a doubt, Gulfstream is P-F-T. P-F-T goes back at least ten years, when I was in the commuter airline job market. In 1992 and before, when times were bad, you about had to P-F-T or forget about commuter jobs. Of course, P-F-Ters get to cut in front of the line ahead of more legitimate job seekers. I already had interviewed at non P-F-T companies, so I reasonably believed that I was a legitimate job seeker. The notion of paying for any job, in any business, turned my stomach, no matter how badly I wanted the job, notwithstanding the harm it does to your colleagues. I refused to P-F-T.

I can't say that you can equate P-F-T directly to scabbing, but it is a distant cousin, in my .02 opinion. There is a correlation.

Of course, in PCL's case, you can't unring the bell. But, he is where he is, on the inside looking out, and it is easy for him to say now that he regrets his decision. Others are where they are. There are a lot of pilots and a lot of hiring boards, but aviation remains a close fraternity. Just do it the traditional way. Nothing wrong with an MAPD or Comair way, either, but just don't do anything that would make people believe that you cut in line. E.g., if you're an MAPD grad, think hard before succumbing to the Freedom Air lorelei.

I know this is highly charged. Frank O's Freedom alter-ego reviles me (but is typical Mesa), but don't screw around on the comm. Don't forget, you have your pax' lives in your hands.

 

[Bluto]

Gulfstream PFT?

Bobbysamd,
I have to disagree with you on one point regarding PFT. Gulfstream is PFT but there's more to it than that. I guess my concern is that PFT under the strictest sense means that an airline hires an employee but that employee foots the bill for all or some of their initial training. After that, the person is an employee. At Gulfstream, you most definitely pay for your initial training, but even when flying the line, you continue to pay. You are more customer than employee. I know you are well aware of these facts, I just want to point out to others that those who paid in the early '90s are not on the same level as Gulfstream F.O.s with no professional experience. Times were tough back then, some chose to PFT, others didn't. I know many refused to pay on principle. Good for them. I would just be careful considering all PFT'ers as damaged goods. The vast majority of people hired in the early '90s had to do it. Today there are other choices.

 

[flying4food]

Brother Bluto,

I agree with you 110% about not screwing around on the radio, there are other ways. However I'm confused on your last post regarding Gulfstream. You say Mesa isn't PFT, not like gulfstream?? I'll have to beg your pardon,, it appears Mesa is just as much pft as any of the otheres. You pay your fee, show up, go through the same FAA approved course for your ratings. Or in the case of some, you show up with your ratings, and pay for first officer training. Either way you look at it, the airline is trying to defer some of the high cost of training back to the root cause, the pilots. Maybe, just maybe, if some of those greedy pilots before us had fulfilled their obligation to some of these regionals, hung around a year or two, then moved on, maybe pft wouldn't have became so popular?? I don't know, I don't have all the answers!!

I must ask, what is so unprofessional about going to mesa, gulfstream, tab international, eagle-jet or any one of the other schools, paying your money and fast tracking?? It appears these places all offer something that CFI/MEI will never get you, atleast not for a very long time!!! That is valuable turbine time, in the 121 or 135 environment. When talking to pilot recruiters and chief pilots at various AIR inc events, they encourage it, so long as you do your research and find the right program for you.

It appears mesa & gulfstream are both good 121 carriers, and I'm sure there are those that go through mesa, never get hired, just like any othere school, it appears these two are very similiar, if not the same, they look like a duck, quack like a duck and walk like a duck!!!

So by your rationale, the pft'ers at mesa are just as much to blame as the pft'ers at Eagle aviation??? I for one can't hold one back for doing what they can to survive, to an extent. (for the record, I don't agree with Freedom at all!!!) If said person goes through pft and doesn't get hired, obviously they weren't pilot material. Instructing isn't for everyone, besides that, right now the market is flooded with CFI's. My outfit just hired a new guy about 2 weeks ago, he only has 3 students, how can one make a living off that. I only instruct part-time, and contract the rest.

As an outsider looking in, it appears that some are upset that pft exsists. Now, someone can get into the right seat of an airliner, and never flight instruct, or as it is said, "never pay your dues". That doesn't make much sence, other than being jealous that one couldn't pft themselves???

Maybe we shouldn't beat each other up, after all, you never know who'll end up in the cockpit with you!!!!

 

[becket]

Can somebody tell me what the difference between Mesa and Freedom is? IMHO, Mesa is just getting a taste of what they've been doing to their major partners for over a decade. Mesa has no scope protection, therefore freedom is totally legal. This isn't meant as flame bait just my observation. BTW, Duane Woerth personally signed America West's contract. Their contract allows for 90 rjs. Basically, ALPA has allowed all this to happen. So if it's okay that America West pilots lose 70 and 90 seat jets, IMO, it's okay for Mesa to lose them too.