Frank Lorenzo had an excuse, he was management

[PCL_128]

And you seem to be very comfortable with the number of dues paying members that have to sue their own "protectors".

I'm not comfortable with anyone suing ALPA. It's completely unnecessary since ALPA is simply following its own Bylaws. If you don't like the Bylaws, then there's a democratic process for you to change them. But since you're a uSAPa supporter, I don't expect you to be educated enough to know what that process is.

ALPA has a long history of denying pilots a democratic process. The planned removal of the PHL reps is just another in the long list.

Placing Council 41 in receivership is part of the democratic process. The democratically created Constitution & Bylaws contains obligations and responsibilities for all elected reps. I know, because I was one. If you don't carry out your responsibilities, then those democratically created Bylaws require your removal, and they lay out a process for doing so. That is what is taking place here. If the Council 41 reps are smart, they will carry out their obligations and this will all disappear on the 3rd.

Prater is in danger of appearing vindictive now and isn't doing ALPA any favors.

Unlike the Council 41 reps, Captain Prater is carrying our his responsibilities as a rep. It has nothing to do with vindictiveness. This is simply his job.

 

[Lear70]

I'm not an ALPA cheerleader, by ANY means, but...

If you're going to organize a recall effort, at least take the time to understand the process and do it right the FIRST time.

It's usually much more successful than getting smacked in the face with your own lack of attention to detail - that doesn't usually engender any kind of confidence in your new "leadership".

p.s. I totally support what UAir is doing, simply because I think they got hosed by the arbitrator. Bear in mind, they got hosed because they were arrogant, gambled, and lost, but the aribtrator obviously was angry and took it out on them in retaliation in the award (it doesn't even come close to resembling anything fair).

I'd be fighting, too, and so would anyone else. The people who keep pushing the idea of "you need to just accept your fate" would likely not be preaching the same line if the shoe were on the other foot.

 

[PCL_128]

The people who keep posturing on the "you need to just accept your fate" would likely not be preaching the same line if the shoe were on the other foot.

I'm not telling them to accept their fate. I'm telling them to recall their entire slate of reps (the right way, per the Bylaws) and elect a new group that will work with National and the West pilots to come to a mutually agreeable solution on fences.

 

[:-)]

The PHL pilots elected and desire to maintain the representatives that they have. Prater and the pals at ALPA are disregarding the right of the PHL reps to have elected representatives.

Nope, Prater and his pals are not disregarding the right of Philly pilots to have elected representatives. He IS deny the reps the right to represent other unions at the time they are elected ALPA representatives. Reps elected under the ALPA banner have an obligation to work for, not against ALPA. added in edit: if the PHL reps had any honor, they would resign and work openly for USAPA instead of working behind the scenes.

In CLT the members have demanded a reall their reps and the CLT reps, with Prater's evident support refuse to allow the members of CLT to have a vote on the recall.

ALPA did the same thing to the pilots of American before they formed APA. Apparently Prater doesn't read history.

I can't comment on the recall, I'm not a member of that council, but I can guarantee that Bill Couette would call the election if it were properly requested by a verified petition from the members. Couette is an honorable man.

Finally, you'll still be welcome on my js even if your wearing a USAPA lanyard. Just don't bring it up.

 

[FR8mastr]

The CLT reps have not had a meeting in over 4 months, what is your pal down in Herndon doing about that? Its kinda hard to put a recall on the agenda for a meeting that does not take place.

Let me ask you 1 question, has ALPA ever done anything wrong in your eyes?

 

[TWA Dude]

p.s. I totally support what UAir is doing, simply because I think they got hosed by the arbitrator.

Lemme get this straight: you support the East's attempts to screw the West because they didn't get what they wanted from the arbitrator? Have you no integrity? Why does the West deserve this?

Bear in mind, they got hosed because they were arrogant, gambled, and lost, but the aribtrator obviously was angry and took it out on them in retaliation in the award.

I saw no indication of anger in the Nicolau Award. Quite the opposite, in fact, his explanation was dispassionate and professional. So too were the opinions of the pilot neutrals. Nicolau chose an integration closer to the West's request because it was more reasonable.

The people who keep pushing the idea of "you need to just accept your fate" would likely not be preaching the same line if the shoe were on the other foot.

How dare you presume that others have as little integrity as you and the Easties! Having lived through a merger where I would've killed to have an arbitrator rule I can guarantee you I would've abided by Nicolau's decision regardless. And yes, I stated exactly that long before Nicolau ruled. You're disgusting for trying to justify unethical behavior.

 

[PositiveRate]

His daddy was a US Air pilot. Ignore him.

 

[PCL_128]

The CLT reps have not had a meeting in over 4 months, what is your pal down in Herndon doing about that? Its kinda hard to put a recall on the agenda for a meeting that does not take place.

Ah, I see we have another uSAPa supporter who doesn't know the Constitution & Bylaws. What a surprise! Here's a tip: read Article XVI to learn how to recall officers without holding a meeting. Pretty simple, really.

Let me ask you 1 question, has ALPA ever done anything wrong in your eyes?

ALPA has done plenty wrong. The solution is never to decertify the union, however.

 

[PositiveRate]

Hey turtle - you never answered my questions from the previous thread.

Very simple questions.

1) Would you and your fellow pilots have preferred to not have been aquired by America West Holdings? My guess is 100% of the AWA pilots would say they would have preferred to go it alone.

2) Had the East gotten more or all of what you demanded in arbitration, would USAPA even exist?

---------
In my opinion, you would not be a US Airways pilot had this merger not occured. AWA might be in a similar situation as Frontier....but you were about to not have a company to work for. Doug Parker just said on Thursday that the merger saved 30,000 US Air jobs from liquidation.

And if you guys had gotten what you thought you deserved, I can gaurantee you USAPA would not have come to pass.
-------------

So why do you and yours continue to paint this as something it's not? This is about Nicolau and getting your careers back at the expense of others.

Your council 41 boys are some of the worst offenders in aiding and abeting USAPA while out on UB...sounds like the karma train is just about at the station.

 

[Lear70]

Lemme get this straight: you support the East's attempts to screw the West because they didn't get what they wanted from the arbitrator? Have you no integrity?

My integrity has been proven, many times over.

I understand the East's attempts to obtain a FAIR seniority integration, rather than what Nicolau gave which is so obviously skewed toward the West that only the West pilots are blind to it.

I don't particularly care for the method they're using to go about it, but I can't blame them for using the only weapon they have left due to the failure of their own negotiating team to pull their collective heads out of their nether regions when Nicolau warned them to come back with something fair.

Why does the West deserve this?

Good question. Why *DOES* the West deserve the windfall? Why does the East deserve to get hosed?

I saw no indication of anger in the Nicolau Award. Quite the opposite, in fact, his explanation was dispassionate and professional. So too were the opinions of the pilot neutrals.

Of course you didn't... You're a West pilot. I don't buy into his assertion that the East was headed for liquidation, nor do many of my peers and, let's face it, you wouldn't be doing ANY real international flying (except for Mexico) if you hadn't merged.

The West's career expectations are greatly improved with the merger, without giving them super-seniority in some cases that is included in the Nicolau award.

If you can't see this, then I can't help you. Many others outside your fight understand it...

Nicolau chose an integration closer to the West's request because it was more reasonable.

Of course it was *MORE* reasonable. The East wanted a staple (effectively by DOH).

Saying the West was "more reasonable" is not the same as saying "the West's offer was completely fair and shared the career expectations of both carriers' pilots in a completely equitable manner".

How dare you presume that others have as little integrity as you and the Easties!

How dare you presume to know how much integrity I have. Works both ways, buddy. Try dropping the holy outrage and actually debating. You sound like a worked-up high school girl. Ease off the caffeine or something.

Having lived through a merger where I would've killed to have an arbitrator rule I can guarantee you I would've abided by Nicolau's decision regardless. And yes, I stated exactly that long before Nicolau ruled. You're disgusting for trying to justify unethical behavior.

Again. Caffeine = No.

And it's easy to "say" that you would; that's the entire point I'm making. I've bit a large bullet for our profession; I continue to live with the outcome of getting involved and helping raise the bar. I also watch many others who, when push comes to shove, won't practice what they preach.

My guess is you'll get your turn. If you guys can't come to something amicable, the East will burn it down, and you can play the blame game with a 2nd carrier.

p.s. We've agreed about AA before but, again, the shoe was on the other foot in that scenario. You got screwed, no doubt about it. Now someone else is getting screwed, you're on the "non-screwed" end of the bargain, and you can't take a minute to see their point of view?

That's pretty hypocritcal. I'd expect more coming from you.

His daddy was a US Air pilot. Ignore him.

Doesn't change the validity of my statements.

Ignoring me won't change the facts that thousands of UAir pilots are going to suffer while many West pilots receive a windfall that only the merger provided.

My "daddy's" UAir history doesn't change my own accomplishments nor my knowledge of the industry, much less my ability to perceive a "fair deal" when I see it. My resume speaks for itself (see left column).

The fact is, in a "fair" integration, the majority of both sides are usually unhappy with facets of the arrangement. Here there's a few people at West who got hosed, the majority will benefit GREATLY, whereas, conversely, a few people in the East will benefit but the majority will get hosed.

But go ahead, keep butting heads. You'll stay locked off their widebody fleets even longer, you'll stay that much longer without a good contract as we enter further into a recession, and you'll put your entire company in jeopardy instead of coming to a mutually-agreeable arrangement.

Brilliant.