Frank Lorenzo had an excuse, he was management

[Double Shot]

******************** Alpa... time to discertify

 

[Lear70]

And my entire point is that you've already proven that you wouldn't abide by that which you've agreed. You can speculate that I have no integrity but I can prove you don't.

Glad to see you calmed down a bit. Your first post was a little hysterical and there was no need to go off on a character attack.

Secondly, what are you talking about in the above paragraph? I don't work at UAir. I haven't agreed to anything, nor am I breaching any sort of agreement.

You have proven nothing; except that you can go off on random tangents that have nothing to do with the conversation.

If the Easties want this place burned down I have no doubt they'll succeed. That's called a pyrrhic victory.

I'm well-aware of the term, which is what I don't understand about the West's position.

The East will get their Pyrrhic victory and the West will get what? An opportunity to start over at the bottom of a seniority list somewhere else?

Who gets to cut their losses? Is it now one big p*ssing contest to see who blinks first?

In that game, I'd say both sides are to blame, no matter of who started it first.

Once again, you've got a lot of nerve. Calling my hypocritical?

Yup. About the same amount of nerve you have telling me I have no integrity.

Doesn't feel good to have someone question you like that, does it? Might think before you post next time.

How is that unfair? You know what, nevermind. I couldn't care less what you think is fair. If we went to an arbitrator I'd win this argument so that's good enough for me.

Ummm... OK. Since you think you've "won", I'll just run along now...

Hint: NO ONE wins on these boards. I post on the UAir threads every once in a blue moon to get people to just take a second to consider two things:

1. How there's more than one side to this argument (although there's far more West supporters since there's more West pilots on this board - they're younger and internet-savvy - I bet half the East pilots have never been on an internet bulletin board in their life), and

2. If you dig your heels in and let the East burn it down, you've won your "moral victory" but have no career. Maybe some type of middle ground would be a better alternative?

That's all I'll say on the matter. I know I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine.

You're confusing the fact that the East pilots almost certainly could have argued for and obtained a more favorable award with "getting hosed by the arbitrator." In fact, Nicolau arguably went beyond the scope of his authority when he warned the East that their leadership was taking them down the road to ruin. The arbitrator is required to craft his award from the positions offered by the parties, and the East simply didn't give him anything to work with.

No, I'm not forgetting that at all. I agree with that assessment 100% and even said so once or twice in this thread.

I just feel bad for the rank-and-file UAir pilot who had NO idea their MEC was screwing them so badly with their ineptitude, and now is using the only weapon they have left.

Like I said, I understand their plight, agree with their fight, but not the way in which they're fighting it.

To top it off, the West pilots now are projecting their career plans based on Nicolau so anything that is proposed by the East as a gain is at the West's expense whereas converesely, if the UAir MEC had obtained it through Nicolau, there wouldn't be NEARLY the same amount of teeth-gnashing from the West side.

It's a sh*tty situation for both sides, and will make it a bitter and nasty place to work for decades; ten times worse than going through CLT right after the Piedmont purchase and (almost total) staple job...

 

[Turtle21]

Turtle,

You deflect the issues because the answers to 2 very basic questions disprove every premise your arguments for 'rights' are based on.

Of course you would have preferred a merger as it was the only means of salvation for what remained of your career. And of course USAPA would not have come to pass if you had been granted your 'demands' from the arbitrator.

You keep trying to sugar coat this into something it's not....this is about you guys not getting what you wanted, so now you're going to try and take it.

While your speculation of USAPA motives, AAA pilots desires, and arbitration wishes makes for a spirited topic of discussion, they are all irrelevant.

Motives are not factored into the NMB ruling regarding the dispute.

Prater's continued scowls and rebuke of the pilots will not serve to win over any votes. ALPA has failed and is incapable of making any improvements.

Its not that many people aren't well intentioned. They just have too many masters. He shouldn't take it personally and neither should you.

 

[Bringupthebird]

2. If you dig your heels in and let the East burn it down, you've won your "moral victory" but have no career. Maybe some type of middle ground would be a better alternative?

Considering the fragile nature of the airline industry at $100/bbl oil, what makes you think the west couldn't "burn the place down" if they are given no alternative (i.e. USAPA victory)? Furthermore, what evidence is there that a bunch of unemployable old frts would be willing to throw their meal ticket in the trash by "burning the place down" just to show the westies a thing or two? Never gonna happen.

C'mon, let's deal with reality for a change.

 

[Bringupthebird]

ALPA has failed and is incapable of making any improvements.

More precisely, ALPA has failed to side with the larger pilot group and crush the smaller. If ALPA chose to gut the arbitration process by allowing more bites at the apple until the dominant side was happy, then I would agree that they failed.

Did they fail in the DAL/NWA talks? No. That process was in the stage where you could bring forward solutions to integration issues. After an arbitration is decided, that time no longer exists. While it might be painful to watch the UAir pilots go through it, the consequences of being bull-headed can't be diminished by changing the rules or changing the union after the fact.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Whatever happened to ALPA's campaign of "Taking it Back"?

Is this part of it?

 

[PCL_128]

Maybe some type of middle ground would be a better alternative?

Of course, but no middle ground is possible as long as uSAPa is a threat. The only chance for a middle ground would be for the East to forget uSAPa and drop the lawsuit that aims to vacate the Nic award. If that were to happen, then with National's assistance, I guarantee that the two MECs could reach a mutually beneficial fence agreement that would end all of this nonsense. But as long as the Easties want to dig in and fight, middle ground will never happen.

 

[vetrider]

The east isn't seeking middle ground, they are seeking(demanding) everything they sought before as they point the figurative gun at the heads of the west. We aren't willing to negotiate? bull********************. We aren't willing to just capitulate, thats different than not being willing to negotiate. I love how we are made out to be the bad guy.

 

[Turtle21]

:angryfire :bomb: :nuts: :uzi: :smash:

And Prater still has a couple hold outs singing Koom ba ya and talking like ALPA can still have a solution to unity.:laugh:

 

[Lear70]

The east isn't seeking middle ground, they are seeking(demanding) everything they sought before as they point the figurative gun at the heads of the west. We aren't willing to negotiate? bull********************. We aren't willing to just capitulate, thats different than not being willing to negotiate. I love how we are made out to be the bad guy.

Didn't say you were the "bad guy", just saying it seems to be a lose-lose situation and I don't see anyone really forging a solution, East or West.

Already said I don't like the way they're doing it on the East, just understand why they're upset.

Like I said, I think the situation just sucks in general, no really good solution to be had now, thanks to the hardline East MEC during the arbitration.

 

[vetrider]

Didn't say you were the "bad guy", just saying it seems to be a lose-lose situation and I don't see anyone really forging a solution, East or West.

Already said I don't like the way they're doing it on the East, just understand why they're upset.

Like I said, I think the situation just sucks in general, no really good solution to be had now, thanks to the hardline East MEC during the arbitration.

Believe it or not, I can understand where they are coming from, to a certain degree, if I step back. The thing is, they don't share that, instead of coming to talk about it they promptly break all previous agreements and threaten us. How smart is that? They just arrogantly think that it is their world and us desert rookies are lucky to breath the same oxygen they do.

Usapa won't be any different for them, simply because the same brain trust and mentality will be working for them once again.

As far as the bad guy label, I didn't mean to insinuate you meant that, it was directed more toward the easties themselves. More of a general declaration than anything.

 

[regionaltard]

Already said I don't like the way they're doing it on the East, just understand why they're upset.

Like I said, I think the situation just sucks in general, no really good solution to be had now, thanks to the hardline East MEC during the arbitration.

I understand that they're upset, but why they're upset keeps coming back to a misguided belief that they were screwed by someone other than the individuals who formulated and executed their "strategy" in arbitration.

The United guys who struck in 1985 were hard-liners; ditto for the Comair group who got far less credit for what they tried to accomplish than they deserved. "Delusional" is a more apt description of the D'OH! crowd.

Agreed that there's no good solution in sight. An arbitration award can be the prelude to further negotiation but it's not likely here. USAPA is a blatant attempt by a larger pilot group to crush a smaller one and its proponents deserve the scorn of us all.

 

[PositiveRate]

While your speculation of USAPA motives, AAA pilots desires, and arbitration wishes makes for a spirited topic of discussion, they are all irrelevant.

You and I seem to be talking about different things here. I'm not debating the NMB process or the election itself.

What I'm saying is the fact that you even get to talk about a dispute vote is because your job was saved by the aquisition of your airline by another. And YES, that is very relevant and is the source of much hypocrisy from the East in general. It's no wonder you won't answer the question as admitting that reality unwinds your positions.

And NO, you would not be concerned in the least over decertification rights or activities had you received what you asked for in arbitration. The ball was dropped by your leadership long long ago. You don't need a new stadium, you need (and have needed for some time) a new ball.

Once again - convenient avoidance of the facts. This is about you not getting what you wanted, being stupid enough to think your leaders could get you what they promised and now attempting (by force) to get what you want through tyranny of the majority.

But don't let the peskiness of the facts get in the way of your precious vote. Are you sure 80% of your fellow East brothers and sisters feel the way you do? That's what you'll need to win.

 

[Lear70]

I think most pilots will admit they can understand the general position of the East pilots. No one likes to get hosed, especially by your own MEC...

My hats off to those of you who can admit that.

I think if more of the East guys could get with those of you who can take that position, you might just find some common ground.

Good luck to you!

 

[Turtle21]

You and I seem to be talking about different things here. I'm not debating the NMB process or the election itself.
....

Well get with the program!:beer:

ALPA has failed to provide useful representation to the West or the East. It is not a union simply because Prater puts on a scowl and rushes around the country screaming, "We ARE a union and we are unified damn it!"

The present circumstances or more than adequate to demonstrate that ALPA is impotent to provide representation to pilots. But they do have a hell of a magazine.