Frank Lorenzo had an excuse, he was management

[Double Shot]

******************** Alpa... time to discertify

 

[Lear70]

And my entire point is that you've already proven that you wouldn't abide by that which you've agreed. You can speculate that I have no integrity but I can prove you don't.

Glad to see you calmed down a bit. Your first post was a little hysterical and there was no need to go off on a character attack.

Secondly, what are you talking about in the above paragraph? I don't work at UAir. I haven't agreed to anything, nor am I breaching any sort of agreement.

You have proven nothing; except that you can go off on random tangents that have nothing to do with the conversation.

If the Easties want this place burned down I have no doubt they'll succeed. That's called a pyrrhic victory.

I'm well-aware of the term, which is what I don't understand about the West's position.

The East will get their Pyrrhic victory and the West will get what? An opportunity to start over at the bottom of a seniority list somewhere else?

Who gets to cut their losses? Is it now one big p*ssing contest to see who blinks first?

In that game, I'd say both sides are to blame, no matter of who started it first.

Once again, you've got a lot of nerve. Calling my hypocritical?

Yup. About the same amount of nerve you have telling me I have no integrity.

Doesn't feel good to have someone question you like that, does it? Might think before you post next time.

How is that unfair? You know what, nevermind. I couldn't care less what you think is fair. If we went to an arbitrator I'd win this argument so that's good enough for me.

Ummm... OK. Since you think you've "won", I'll just run along now...

Hint: NO ONE wins on these boards. I post on the UAir threads every once in a blue moon to get people to just take a second to consider two things:

1. How there's more than one side to this argument (although there's far more West supporters since there's more West pilots on this board - they're younger and internet-savvy - I bet half the East pilots have never been on an internet bulletin board in their life), and

2. If you dig your heels in and let the East burn it down, you've won your "moral victory" but have no career. Maybe some type of middle ground would be a better alternative?

That's all I'll say on the matter. I know I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine.

You're confusing the fact that the East pilots almost certainly could have argued for and obtained a more favorable award with "getting hosed by the arbitrator." In fact, Nicolau arguably went beyond the scope of his authority when he warned the East that their leadership was taking them down the road to ruin. The arbitrator is required to craft his award from the positions offered by the parties, and the East simply didn't give him anything to work with.

No, I'm not forgetting that at all. I agree with that assessment 100% and even said so once or twice in this thread.

I just feel bad for the rank-and-file UAir pilot who had NO idea their MEC was screwing them so badly with their ineptitude, and now is using the only weapon they have left.

Like I said, I understand their plight, agree with their fight, but not the way in which they're fighting it.

To top it off, the West pilots now are projecting their career plans based on Nicolau so anything that is proposed by the East as a gain is at the West's expense whereas converesely, if the UAir MEC had obtained it through Nicolau, there wouldn't be NEARLY the same amount of teeth-gnashing from the West side.

It's a sh*tty situation for both sides, and will make it a bitter and nasty place to work for decades; ten times worse than going through CLT right after the Piedmont purchase and (almost total) staple job...

 

[Turtle21]

Turtle,

You deflect the issues because the answers to 2 very basic questions disprove every premise your arguments for 'rights' are based on.

Of course you would have preferred a merger as it was the only means of salvation for what remained of your career. And of course USAPA would not have come to pass if you had been granted your 'demands' from the arbitrator.

You keep trying to sugar coat this into something it's not....this is about you guys not getting what you wanted, so now you're going to try and take it.

While your speculation of USAPA motives, AAA pilots desires, and arbitration wishes makes for a spirited topic of discussion, they are all irrelevant.

Motives are not factored into the NMB ruling regarding the dispute.

Prater's continued scowls and rebuke of the pilots will not serve to win over any votes. ALPA has failed and is incapable of making any improvements.

Its not that many people aren't well intentioned. They just have too many masters. He shouldn't take it personally and neither should you.

 

[Bringupthebird]

2. If you dig your heels in and let the East burn it down, you've won your "moral victory" but have no career. Maybe some type of middle ground would be a better alternative?

Considering the fragile nature of the airline industry at $100/bbl oil, what makes you think the west couldn't "burn the place down" if they are given no alternative (i.e. USAPA victory)? Furthermore, what evidence is there that a bunch of unemployable old frts would be willing to throw their meal ticket in the trash by "burning the place down" just to show the westies a thing or two? Never gonna happen.

C'mon, let's deal with reality for a change.

 

[Bringupthebird]

ALPA has failed and is incapable of making any improvements.

More precisely, ALPA has failed to side with the larger pilot group and crush the smaller. If ALPA chose to gut the arbitration process by allowing more bites at the apple until the dominant side was happy, then I would agree that they failed.

Did they fail in the DAL/NWA talks? No. That process was in the stage where you could bring forward solutions to integration issues. After an arbitration is decided, that time no longer exists. While it might be painful to watch the UAir pilots go through it, the consequences of being bull-headed can't be diminished by changing the rules or changing the union after the fact.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Whatever happened to ALPA's campaign of "Taking it Back"?

Is this part of it?

 

[PCL_128]

Maybe some type of middle ground would be a better alternative?

Of course, but no middle ground is possible as long as uSAPa is a threat. The only chance for a middle ground would be for the East to forget uSAPa and drop the lawsuit that aims to vacate the Nic award. If that were to happen, then with National's assistance, I guarantee that the two MECs could reach a mutually beneficial fence agreement that would end all of this nonsense. But as long as the Easties want to dig in and fight, middle ground will never happen.

 

[vetrider]

The east isn't seeking middle ground, they are seeking(demanding) everything they sought before as they point the figurative gun at the heads of the west. We aren't willing to negotiate? bull********************. We aren't willing to just capitulate, thats different than not being willing to negotiate. I love how we are made out to be the bad guy.

 

[Turtle21]

:angryfire :bomb: :nuts: :uzi: :smash:

And Prater still has a couple hold outs singing Koom ba ya and talking like ALPA can still have a solution to unity.:laugh:

 

[Lear70]

The east isn't seeking middle ground, they are seeking(demanding) everything they sought before as they point the figurative gun at the heads of the west. We aren't willing to negotiate? bull********************. We aren't willing to just capitulate, thats different than not being willing to negotiate. I love how we are made out to be the bad guy.

Didn't say you were the "bad guy", just saying it seems to be a lose-lose situation and I don't see anyone really forging a solution, East or West.

Already said I don't like the way they're doing it on the East, just understand why they're upset.

Like I said, I think the situation just sucks in general, no really good solution to be had now, thanks to the hardline East MEC during the arbitration.

 

[vetrider]

Didn't say you were the "bad guy", just saying it seems to be a lose-lose situation and I don't see anyone really forging a solution, East or West.

Already said I don't like the way they're doing it on the East, just understand why they're upset.

Like I said, I think the situation just sucks in general, no really good solution to be had now, thanks to the hardline East MEC during the arbitration.

Believe it or not, I can understand where they are coming from, to a certain degree, if I step back. The thing is, they don't share that, instead of coming to talk about it they promptly break all previous agreements and threaten us. How smart is that? They just arrogantly think that it is their world and us desert rookies are lucky to breath the same oxygen they do.

Usapa won't be any different for them, simply because the same brain trust and mentality will be working for them once again.

As far as the bad guy label, I didn't mean to insinuate you meant that, it was directed more toward the easties themselves. More of a general declaration than anything.

 

[regionaltard]

Already said I don't like the way they're doing it on the East, just understand why they're upset.

Like I said, I think the situation just sucks in general, no really good solution to be had now, thanks to the hardline East MEC during the arbitration.

I understand that they're upset, but why they're upset keeps coming back to a misguided belief that they were screwed by someone other than the individuals who formulated and executed their "strategy" in arbitration.

The United guys who struck in 1985 were hard-liners; ditto for the Comair group who got far less credit for what they tried to accomplish than they deserved. "Delusional" is a more apt description of the D'OH! crowd.

Agreed that there's no good solution in sight. An arbitration award can be the prelude to further negotiation but it's not likely here. USAPA is a blatant attempt by a larger pilot group to crush a smaller one and its proponents deserve the scorn of us all.

 

[PositiveRate]

While your speculation of USAPA motives, AAA pilots desires, and arbitration wishes makes for a spirited topic of discussion, they are all irrelevant.

You and I seem to be talking about different things here. I'm not debating the NMB process or the election itself.

What I'm saying is the fact that you even get to talk about a dispute vote is because your job was saved by the aquisition of your airline by another. And YES, that is very relevant and is the source of much hypocrisy from the East in general. It's no wonder you won't answer the question as admitting that reality unwinds your positions.

And NO, you would not be concerned in the least over decertification rights or activities had you received what you asked for in arbitration. The ball was dropped by your leadership long long ago. You don't need a new stadium, you need (and have needed for some time) a new ball.

Once again - convenient avoidance of the facts. This is about you not getting what you wanted, being stupid enough to think your leaders could get you what they promised and now attempting (by force) to get what you want through tyranny of the majority.

But don't let the peskiness of the facts get in the way of your precious vote. Are you sure 80% of your fellow East brothers and sisters feel the way you do? That's what you'll need to win.

 

[Lear70]

I think most pilots will admit they can understand the general position of the East pilots. No one likes to get hosed, especially by your own MEC...

My hats off to those of you who can admit that.

I think if more of the East guys could get with those of you who can take that position, you might just find some common ground.

Good luck to you!

 

[Turtle21]

You and I seem to be talking about different things here. I'm not debating the NMB process or the election itself.
....

Well get with the program!:beer:

ALPA has failed to provide useful representation to the West or the East. It is not a union simply because Prater puts on a scowl and rushes around the country screaming, "We ARE a union and we are unified damn it!"

The present circumstances or more than adequate to demonstrate that ALPA is impotent to provide representation to pilots. But they do have a hell of a magazine.

 

[Turtle21]

.. you might just find some common ground.

Good luck to you!

LOL! Yeah we need common ground. In a union, the only problem with common ground is that it requires the foundation that is even more important than common ground... seniority.:laugh:

 

[FR8mastr]

Ah, I see we have another uSAPa supporter who doesn't know the Constitution & Bylaws. What a surprise! .

I am very familiar with the recall process, I know it's very hard for someone that knows everything to admit others may actually have a clue. Did you ever even consider that maybe you are not getting the whole truth from your friends in Herndon? Don't bother answering, as we all know that anything that comes from the brotherhood in Herndon is laced with gold brought about on wings of angels.

I have personally experienced the corruption that is ALPA. I never would expect you to believe any of it, so there is no point going into it. However to constantly claim that anything going on in Herndon must be on the up and up just because its Herndon is crazy.

 

[vetrider]

LOL! Yeah we need common ground. In a union, the only problem with common ground is that it requires the foundation that is even more important than common ground... seniority.:laugh:

Borrowing a line from Cool Hand Luke

"Some men, you just caaiint reach...."

 

[pipe]

PCL. Do you by any chance have a bushy moustache?

PIPE

 

[ferlo]

What a pity. Really.. its a shame.

What's the Pity? the fact the the EAST alpa guys have been stealing union money in the form of Flight Pay Loss, all the while working to subvert the union?

ALPA national should sue them to recover all OUR money.

 

[PCL_128]

However to constantly claim that anything going on in Herndon must be on the up and up just because its Herndon is crazy.

Do you have any proof that Herndon is not following the Bylaws in this case? If not, then I have no reason to believe that anything in Herndon is not "on the up and up."

 

[PCL_128]

PCL. Do you by any chance have a bushy moustache?

PIPE

I do not. Tried to grow one a few years ago when I was on vacation, but it came in patchy. So, no 'stache for me. I'm forever excluded from holding ALPA National office.

 

[TWA Dude]

In fact, Nicolau arguably went beyond the scope of his authority when he warned the East that their leadership was taking them down the road to ruin.

He was simply acting in his capacity as a mediator. Nicolau's job was to get both sides to agree and only without that would he hand down his decision. To that effect, he was mediating to the last possible minute by hinting which direction he was leaning. The East rank and file were not allowed to hear this information but it's clear to me that their inability to see reality means it would've made no difference. They're in a slash-and-burn mode and they don't care one whit that they're standing in their burning field.

 

[Freight Dog]

Guys that don't know Lear70 are really sounding lame by questioning that man's integrity. It's another thing altogether to disagree with him. I disagree with him in regards to this merger.

It is rather unfortunate that USAir East had 20 year FO's, but whose fault is that? Why should a 10 year West captain relinquish his seat to a 20 year East FO? Pity?

 

[fam62c]

This is shameful

I don't know how any airline can survive with this type of bitterness and division among the employees. The only good that may come from this is being illustrated in the DAL/NWA situation. Any merger has massive hurdles to overcome in order to create a cohesive, efficient combined operation. These issues need to be thoroughly evaluated and a workable plan needs to be developed BEFORE the deal gets done or the result will be a trainwreck. I'm afraid that the USAirways/AmWest merger has resulted in a combination where the whole is less valuable than the sum of the parts. Let this be a sad lesson to all.

 

[Turtle21]

Guys that don't know Lear70 are really sounding lame by questioning that man's integrity. It's another thing altogether to disagree with him. I disagree with him in regards to this merger.

It is rather unfortunate that USAir East had 20 year FO's, but whose fault is that? Why should a 10 year West captain relinquish his seat to a 20 year East FO? Pity?

Seniority solutions is not the present question before the pilots. ALPA has left the building already. Some regard seniority as a union responsibility and there exists a dispute about whether or not ALPA is fit to provide representation. The present circumstances demonstrate that, if nothing else, ALPA has its limitations. That is why the NMB has ruled there is a dispute.

Tossing out red herrings about what a union might or might not attempt to do is pointless.

If anyone casts their vote without basing their decision on what the Constitution and Bylaws support and require, then they are just shooting in the dark.

Many people get pulled in by silly emotional arguments and throw tantrums. Some people get all teary eyed about ALPA nostalgia and choke up at the thought of admitting their heros aren't perfect.

It shouldn't be an emotional issue. If your lawn care service mows down your flower bed you ask him WTF. If he tells you that he will continue mowing down your flower bed because he knows better than you do then you tell him he is mistaken about who works for who in this relationship and you fire him if he is recalcitrant. If he starts throwing rocks through your windows and pouring dirty oil on the lawn then he is vindictive and it will affect his employment with other clients. The more vindictive and hateful they are as they are ushered off your property the more it will affect any future opportunities they may have otherwise had.

 

[Freight Dog]

ALPA is FAR, FAR, FAR from perfect. Hell, I'll be the first one to point out ALPA's imperfections.

I don't have any past or present affiliations with USAirways or America West or any regionals associated with either carriers, so I can speak about this as an outside observer.

It is indeed sad that the original USAir pilots got shafted, but they got shafted by their management, and then by their ELECTED ALPA reps. Looking from outside in, I agree - pilots got the real short end of the stick. It is sad that a 20 year veteran couldn't hold anything more than a narrowbody first officer. What would have been an even worse tragedy would be if the original USAir closed its doors and liquidated. I mean, talk about getting a real sh*tty end of the stick. Instead, USAir pilots got a Hail Mary through a merger with another entity - America West. From an outside perspective, it looks as if USAir pilots saw this as an opportunity to "right the wrongs done to its pilot group." Nobody has a problem with this. The problem is that USAir pilots want to do this squarely at the expense of America West pilots and disregard all ALPA merger policies.

It is indeed sad. I wish common sense would prevail here, but...... you reap what you sow. I felt sorry for USAir pilots ever since 9/11, up until this merger and their true colors came out. Now, I REALLY feel sorry for America West pilots for having this madness shoved down their throat.

Who knows... maybe the answer is to abolish the seniority concept altogether a'la Emirates. Who knows?

 

[ferlo]

ALPA is FAR, FAR, FAR from perfect. Hell, I'll be the first one to point out ALPA's imperfections.

I don't have any past or present affiliations with USAirways or America West or any regionals associated with either carriers, so I can speak about this as an outside observer.

It is indeed sad that the original USAir pilots got shafted, but they got shafted by their management, and then by their ELECTED ALPA reps. Looking from outside in, I agree - pilots got the real short end of the stick. It is sad that a 20 year veteran couldn't hold anything more than a narrowbody first officer. What would have been an even worse tragedy would be if the original USAir closed its doors and liquidated. I mean, talk about getting a real sh*tty end of the stick. Instead, USAir pilots got a Hail Mary through a merger with another entity - America West. From an outside perspective, it looks as if USAir pilots saw this as an opportunity to "right the wrongs done to its pilot group." Nobody has a problem with this. The problem is that USAir pilots want to do this squarely at the expense of America West pilots and disregard all ALPA merger policies.

It is indeed sad. I wish common sense would prevail here, but...... you reap what you sow. I felt sorry for USAir pilots ever since 9/11, up until this merger and their true colors came out. Now, I REALLY feel sorry for America West pilots for having this madness shoved down their throat.

Who knows... maybe the answer is to abolish the seniority concept altogether a'la Emirates. Who knows?

All true, which is why USAPA supporters/Voters need to be regarded as the SCABS they are.

They've simply added a new definition to the term.

 

[Turtle21]

All true, which is why USAPA supporters/Voters need to be regarded as the SCABS they are.

They've simply added a new definition to the term.

Ya know, your T-shirt in your avitar has a better chance of convincing a muslim to become a Christian, than does your use of the term Scab have the chance of convincing a vote for ALPA.

I love you man.:beer:

 

[Fast43]

I disagree with Lear completely on this issue, but I and just about every other AirTran pilot would back him up on the above quote. Look at some old threads from last fall that deal with our contract negotiations. Lear made the ultimate sacrifice because of the fighting he did for this pilot group. I disagree with him on many things, but his integrity is most certainly not in question.

Glad to hear that his efforts on behalf of his pilot group are appreciated.

But certainly you could understand that his support for another pilot group that has as it's stated goal the overturning of a federaly arbitrated decision followed by the subjugation of 40% of the pilot group.

Makes it difficult to consider him someone who would fight for all pilots interests. I'm just glad that in the situation you mention, that his interests were the same as yours.



Fast