Frank Lorenzo had an excuse, he was management

[TWA Dude]

p.s. I totally support what UAir is doing, simply because I think they got hosed by the arbitrator.

Lemme get this straight: you support the East's attempts to screw the West because they didn't get what they wanted from the arbitrator? Have you no integrity? Why does the West deserve this?

Bear in mind, they got hosed because they were arrogant, gambled, and lost, but the aribtrator obviously was angry and took it out on them in retaliation in the award.

I saw no indication of anger in the Nicolau Award. Quite the opposite, in fact, his explanation was dispassionate and professional. So too were the opinions of the pilot neutrals. Nicolau chose an integration closer to the West's request because it was more reasonable.

The people who keep pushing the idea of "you need to just accept your fate" would likely not be preaching the same line if the shoe were on the other foot.

How dare you presume that others have as little integrity as you and the Easties! Having lived through a merger where I would've killed to have an arbitrator rule I can guarantee you I would've abided by Nicolau's decision regardless. And yes, I stated exactly that long before Nicolau ruled. You're disgusting for trying to justify unethical behavior.

 

[PositiveRate]

His daddy was a US Air pilot. Ignore him.

 

[PCL_128]

The CLT reps have not had a meeting in over 4 months, what is your pal down in Herndon doing about that? Its kinda hard to put a recall on the agenda for a meeting that does not take place.

Ah, I see we have another uSAPa supporter who doesn't know the Constitution & Bylaws. What a surprise! Here's a tip: read Article XVI to learn how to recall officers without holding a meeting. Pretty simple, really.

Let me ask you 1 question, has ALPA ever done anything wrong in your eyes?

ALPA has done plenty wrong. The solution is never to decertify the union, however.

 

[PositiveRate]

Hey turtle - you never answered my questions from the previous thread.

Very simple questions.

1) Would you and your fellow pilots have preferred to not have been aquired by America West Holdings? My guess is 100% of the AWA pilots would say they would have preferred to go it alone.

2) Had the East gotten more or all of what you demanded in arbitration, would USAPA even exist?

---------
In my opinion, you would not be a US Airways pilot had this merger not occured. AWA might be in a similar situation as Frontier....but you were about to not have a company to work for. Doug Parker just said on Thursday that the merger saved 30,000 US Air jobs from liquidation.

And if you guys had gotten what you thought you deserved, I can gaurantee you USAPA would not have come to pass.
-------------

So why do you and yours continue to paint this as something it's not? This is about Nicolau and getting your careers back at the expense of others.

Your council 41 boys are some of the worst offenders in aiding and abeting USAPA while out on UB...sounds like the karma train is just about at the station.

 

[Lear70]

Lemme get this straight: you support the East's attempts to screw the West because they didn't get what they wanted from the arbitrator? Have you no integrity?

My integrity has been proven, many times over.

I understand the East's attempts to obtain a FAIR seniority integration, rather than what Nicolau gave which is so obviously skewed toward the West that only the West pilots are blind to it.

I don't particularly care for the method they're using to go about it, but I can't blame them for using the only weapon they have left due to the failure of their own negotiating team to pull their collective heads out of their nether regions when Nicolau warned them to come back with something fair.

Why does the West deserve this?

Good question. Why *DOES* the West deserve the windfall? Why does the East deserve to get hosed?

I saw no indication of anger in the Nicolau Award. Quite the opposite, in fact, his explanation was dispassionate and professional. So too were the opinions of the pilot neutrals.

Of course you didn't... You're a West pilot. I don't buy into his assertion that the East was headed for liquidation, nor do many of my peers and, let's face it, you wouldn't be doing ANY real international flying (except for Mexico) if you hadn't merged.

The West's career expectations are greatly improved with the merger, without giving them super-seniority in some cases that is included in the Nicolau award.

If you can't see this, then I can't help you. Many others outside your fight understand it...

Nicolau chose an integration closer to the West's request because it was more reasonable.

Of course it was *MORE* reasonable. The East wanted a staple (effectively by DOH).

Saying the West was "more reasonable" is not the same as saying "the West's offer was completely fair and shared the career expectations of both carriers' pilots in a completely equitable manner".

How dare you presume that others have as little integrity as you and the Easties!

How dare you presume to know how much integrity I have. Works both ways, buddy. Try dropping the holy outrage and actually debating. You sound like a worked-up high school girl. Ease off the caffeine or something.

Having lived through a merger where I would've killed to have an arbitrator rule I can guarantee you I would've abided by Nicolau's decision regardless. And yes, I stated exactly that long before Nicolau ruled. You're disgusting for trying to justify unethical behavior.

Again. Caffeine = No.

And it's easy to "say" that you would; that's the entire point I'm making. I've bit a large bullet for our profession; I continue to live with the outcome of getting involved and helping raise the bar. I also watch many others who, when push comes to shove, won't practice what they preach.

My guess is you'll get your turn. If you guys can't come to something amicable, the East will burn it down, and you can play the blame game with a 2nd carrier.

p.s. We've agreed about AA before but, again, the shoe was on the other foot in that scenario. You got screwed, no doubt about it. Now someone else is getting screwed, you're on the "non-screwed" end of the bargain, and you can't take a minute to see their point of view?

That's pretty hypocritcal. I'd expect more coming from you.

His daddy was a US Air pilot. Ignore him.

Doesn't change the validity of my statements.

Ignoring me won't change the facts that thousands of UAir pilots are going to suffer while many West pilots receive a windfall that only the merger provided.

My "daddy's" UAir history doesn't change my own accomplishments nor my knowledge of the industry, much less my ability to perceive a "fair deal" when I see it. My resume speaks for itself (see left column).

The fact is, in a "fair" integration, the majority of both sides are usually unhappy with facets of the arrangement. Here there's a few people at West who got hosed, the majority will benefit GREATLY, whereas, conversely, a few people in the East will benefit but the majority will get hosed.

But go ahead, keep butting heads. You'll stay locked off their widebody fleets even longer, you'll stay that much longer without a good contract as we enter further into a recession, and you'll put your entire company in jeopardy instead of coming to a mutually-agreeable arrangement.

Brilliant.

 

[PCL_128]

My integrity has been proven, many times over.

I disagree with Lear completely on this issue, but I and just about every other AirTran pilot would back him up on the above quote. Look at some old threads from last fall that deal with our contract negotiations. Lear made the ultimate sacrifice because of the fighting he did for this pilot group. I disagree with him on many things, but his integrity is most certainly not in question.

 

[PositiveRate]

"Ignoring me won't change the facts that thousands of UAir pilots are going to suffer while many West pilots receive a windfall that only the merger provided."

Thanks for the good laugh Lear.

Sorry to hear about your AirTran dealings...I for one do hope you're able to get your job back. You were fighting a noble battle. It surpsises me you don't see the battle the East is chosing to fight directly contradicts your push for higher wages and better working conditions at AirTran. They are willing to sacrifice all carriers in or near negotiations to prove a point that longevity is synonymous with seniority, when if fact they are two separate issues.

BUT....

As far as this little US Airways mess, you're way off base here. Having furloughed pilots placed behind active pilots is not a windfall. Having all pilots keep their relative seniority positions within a few % points is not a windfall. In fact, everything good from this merger has gone East, starting with the fact that they got to keep their jobs.

And YES, I do believe the fact your daddy was a US Air pilot has greatly biased your opinion since the day the award was announced.

To be fair, I did see your comments about disagreeing with the East's methodology as of late, but can't give them much weight as you immediately contradict yourself saying you can't blaim them (insert bias here).....

 

[Lear70]

Thanks for the well-wishes, it's going to be a long fight over here...

As far as UAir biased... let's just say that I pretty much hate senior UAir management for things that happened with (and continue to happen to) my Dad, even after retirement.

That *SHOULD* bias me pretty heavily AGAINST UAir,,, but,,, I look at the pilots and think of how I would like it if I were going to retire 24 years at a "Major" as an F/O. (I wouldn't).

That's why I understand the UAir side of the coin.

The furloughed guys are another story - they're hosed and shouldn't have expected to get brought back as anything other than the bottom of the combined list. That's the way the industry goes sometimes and that's probably why so few of them are accepting recall.

Personally, I was jobless, and didn't apply at UAir. Don't like what's happening, don't want anything to do with it. Would rather keep flying Lears than go to the bottom of that heap... I'd likely NEVER see upgrade.

Don't mind being an F/O if the pay and QOL is good, just don't want to swing gear for LIFE.

p.s. One can agree with someone's war but not like the method in which they wage it. Wish there was another way to work it out but, obviously, there's not. It's a sh*tty situation...

 

[Turtle21]

Hey turtle - you never answered my questions from the previous thread.

Your questions ask for speculation and are thus irrelevant.

The question at hand is the right of pilots to have elected representation that is responsive to the electorate and not to a national jobs recruiter.

Any union that has to pay its members FPL to show up to cheerleading informational meetings has major issues. The NMB has acknowledged the dispute and the election will be completed in April.

ALPA should give serious consideration to cutting its losses and participating in an honorable campaign.

Perhaps AA pilots would have returned to ALPA by now had it not been for the way they were treated.

 

[PositiveRate]

Lear,

Good luck with AirTran. Smart move on not applying to US Airways.

I'm not going to debate on and on about this as no one is going to change anyone's mind at this point. We'll have to agree to disagree on certain viewpoints.

Just remember, the America West pilots were fighting the same war with our management that you lost your job over. The East fought side by side with us up until the arbitration award, at which point spite took the reigns and here we are almost a year later...

Monday should be interesting.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

I hope US Air wins. Get rid of ALPA. Prater deserves to see what he's started. Once US Air is out, the rest will think about it also. SCREW ALPA. Prater screwed the MAJORITY of ALPA pilots, and deserves to be swinging from the gallows. The ALPA guzzlers are here PCL;REZ; etc.etc. always stating they know the EXACT inside, but it's only an opinion.

Dump ALPA, so the rest of the majors will follow.

 

[PositiveRate]

Turtle,

You deflect the issues because the answers to 2 very basic questions disprove every premise your arguments for 'rights' are based on.

Of course you would have preferred a merger as it was the only means of salvation for what remained of your career. And of course USAPA would not have come to pass if you had been granted your 'demands' from the arbitrator.

You keep trying to sugar coat this into something it's not....this is about you guys not getting what you wanted, so now you're going to try and take it.

 

[TWA Dude]

I hope US Air wins.

If you really meant that you'd be wishing for USAPA to lose. Trust me on that.

 

[TWA Dude]

My integrity has been proven, many times over.

I don't know about before but I do know that now you think it's A-okay for the Easties to take a course of action purely to disadvantage us Westies. No integrity in that.

I understand the East's attempts to obtain a FAIR seniority integration, rather than what Nicolau gave which is so obviously skewed toward the West that only the West pilots are blind to it.

The beauty is I/we Westies don't have to justify Nicolau. He justifies his opinion quite nicely on his own. You're not unbiased. I'm not unbiased. Any Eastie isn't unbiased. Nicolau is unbiased so for you to judge him is horsecookies.

Good question. Why *DOES* the West deserve the windfall? Why does the East deserve to get hosed?

What "windfall"? Seriously, SHOW ME THE WINDFALL! I was a junior FO before Nicolau and I'm a junior FO with Nicolau. Same thing goes for all the active East guys. The Easties lost their careers because of two bankruptcies and the only place for them to get their seats back is by depriving Westies of same. Nicolau saw that and prevented that blatent seat-grab. He prevented an East windfall, that's all.

I don't buy into his assertion that the East was headed for liquidation, nor do many of my peers and,

BFD. People believe what they want to believe. In May, 2005, USAirways was self-financed in Chapter 11 (ie, no DIP financier) and had no business plan forthcoming. Every financial analyst was expecting liquidation at any moment. I guess you're just more knowledgeable than them all.

let's face it, you wouldn't be doing ANY real international flying (except for Mexico) if you hadn't merged.

Got news for you, bucko. The Transition Agreement, you know, the thing that existed almost a full year before Nicolau ruled, dictated that all added airplanes were to be shared. Your point is moot.

The West's career expectations are greatly improved with the merger, without giving them super-seniority in some cases that is included in the Nicolau award.

Both side's career expectations were improved in the merger. But as Nicolau stated, one side gained much more than the other.

If you can't see this, then I can't help you. Many others outside your fight understand it...

Thank goodness I neither need nor want your help.

Of course it was *MORE* reasonable. The East wanted a staple (effectively by DOH). Saying the West was "more reasonable" is not the same as saying "the West's offer was completely fair and shared the career expectations of both carriers' pilots in a completely equitable manner".

Whether I think the West's proposal was more fair is irrelevent. Nicolau made that determination.

How dare you presume to know how much integrity I have.

I dare! They agreed to binding arbitration so just because they feel they got scewed they're justified in doing whatever the hell they please? Oh yes, I do indeed dare.

Works both ways, buddy. Try dropping the holy outrage and actually debating. You sound like a worked-up high school girl. Ease off the caffeine or something.

Ah, yes, when you can't make a point just dole out an ad hominem attack. Says a lot about you.

And it's easy to "say" that you would; that's the entire point I'm making.

And my entire point is that you've already proven that you wouldn't abide by that which you've agreed. You can speculate that I have no integrity but I can prove you don't.

I've bit a large bullet for our profession; I continue to live with the outcome of getting involved and helping raise the bar. I also watch many others who, when push comes to shove, won't practice what they preach.

Cry me a river. The minute it was announced that AWA might buy ATA I said I'm glad we've got ALPA Merger Policy. The minute we announced the merger with USAirways I went into the fetal position for two hours -- and then I said I was glad we had ALPA Merge Policy. The only fair way to deal with such disparate ideas of integration is for a neutral arbitrator to decide. Well, we got it. Funny how no Eastie claimed Nicolau was too old, senile, stupid, biased, or angry during the Shuttle integration. Only after he ruled did the epithets fly.

If you guys can't come to something amicable, the East will burn it down,

If the Easties want this place burned down I have no doubt they'll succeed. That's called a pyrrhic victory.

p.s. We've agreed about AA before but, again, the shoe was on the other foot in that scenario. You got screwed, no doubt about it. Now someone else is getting screwed, you're on the "non-screwed" end of the bargain, and you can't take a minute to see their point of view?

Once again, you've got a lot of nerve. Calling my hypocritical? With AA/TWA there was only the imposition of one side's desire and that's exactly what USAPA aims to do!!! They even fashioned their bylaws after the APA. The APA knew darned well an arbitrator would've given the TWAers something substantially better. The hypocricy is all yours.

Ignoring me won't change the facts that thousands of UAir pilots are going to suffer while many West pilots receive a windfall that only the merger provided.

Again, SHOW ME THE WINDFALL!!! On the day the merger was announced about half of all East and West pilots were FOs. Nicolau maintained that. How is that unfair? You know what, nevermind. I couldn't care less what you think is fair. If we went to an arbitrator I'd win this argument so that's good enough for me.

 

[regionaltard]

p.s. I totally support what UAir is doing, simply because I think they got hosed by the arbitrator.

You're confusing the fact that the East pilots almost certainly could have argued for and obtained a more favorable award with "getting hosed by the arbitrator." In fact, Nicolau arguably went beyond the scope of his authority when he warned the East that their leadership was taking them down the road to ruin. The arbitrator is required to craft his award from the positions offered by the parties, and the East simply didn't give him anything to work with.

The reason it's called "binding arbitration" is to keep one side from advancing a completely unrealistic agenda on the off chance that they might get lucky and sneak it past the neutral, secure in the knowledge that they'll get another shot if the land grab fails.

The East can and apparently will continue to crap the bed for the foreseeable future, but it doesn't change the fact that the blame for the perceived inequality of the award lies with their leadership. Undermining the basic premise of arbitration simply to quiet their tantrum is patently absurd.