Frank Lorenzo had an excuse, he was management

[PCL_128]

My integrity has been proven, many times over.

I disagree with Lear completely on this issue, but I and just about every other AirTran pilot would back him up on the above quote. Look at some old threads from last fall that deal with our contract negotiations. Lear made the ultimate sacrifice because of the fighting he did for this pilot group. I disagree with him on many things, but his integrity is most certainly not in question.

 

[PositiveRate]

"Ignoring me won't change the facts that thousands of UAir pilots are going to suffer while many West pilots receive a windfall that only the merger provided."

Thanks for the good laugh Lear.

Sorry to hear about your AirTran dealings...I for one do hope you're able to get your job back. You were fighting a noble battle. It surpsises me you don't see the battle the East is chosing to fight directly contradicts your push for higher wages and better working conditions at AirTran. They are willing to sacrifice all carriers in or near negotiations to prove a point that longevity is synonymous with seniority, when if fact they are two separate issues.

BUT....

As far as this little US Airways mess, you're way off base here. Having furloughed pilots placed behind active pilots is not a windfall. Having all pilots keep their relative seniority positions within a few % points is not a windfall. In fact, everything good from this merger has gone East, starting with the fact that they got to keep their jobs.

And YES, I do believe the fact your daddy was a US Air pilot has greatly biased your opinion since the day the award was announced.

To be fair, I did see your comments about disagreeing with the East's methodology as of late, but can't give them much weight as you immediately contradict yourself saying you can't blaim them (insert bias here).....

 

[Lear70]

Thanks for the well-wishes, it's going to be a long fight over here...

As far as UAir biased... let's just say that I pretty much hate senior UAir management for things that happened with (and continue to happen to) my Dad, even after retirement.

That *SHOULD* bias me pretty heavily AGAINST UAir,,, but,,, I look at the pilots and think of how I would like it if I were going to retire 24 years at a "Major" as an F/O. (I wouldn't).

That's why I understand the UAir side of the coin.

The furloughed guys are another story - they're hosed and shouldn't have expected to get brought back as anything other than the bottom of the combined list. That's the way the industry goes sometimes and that's probably why so few of them are accepting recall.

Personally, I was jobless, and didn't apply at UAir. Don't like what's happening, don't want anything to do with it. Would rather keep flying Lears than go to the bottom of that heap... I'd likely NEVER see upgrade.

Don't mind being an F/O if the pay and QOL is good, just don't want to swing gear for LIFE.

p.s. One can agree with someone's war but not like the method in which they wage it. Wish there was another way to work it out but, obviously, there's not. It's a sh*tty situation...

 

[Turtle21]

Hey turtle - you never answered my questions from the previous thread.

Your questions ask for speculation and are thus irrelevant.

The question at hand is the right of pilots to have elected representation that is responsive to the electorate and not to a national jobs recruiter.

Any union that has to pay its members FPL to show up to cheerleading informational meetings has major issues. The NMB has acknowledged the dispute and the election will be completed in April.

ALPA should give serious consideration to cutting its losses and participating in an honorable campaign.

Perhaps AA pilots would have returned to ALPA by now had it not been for the way they were treated.

 

[PositiveRate]

Lear,

Good luck with AirTran. Smart move on not applying to US Airways.

I'm not going to debate on and on about this as no one is going to change anyone's mind at this point. We'll have to agree to disagree on certain viewpoints.

Just remember, the America West pilots were fighting the same war with our management that you lost your job over. The East fought side by side with us up until the arbitration award, at which point spite took the reigns and here we are almost a year later...

Monday should be interesting.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

I hope US Air wins. Get rid of ALPA. Prater deserves to see what he's started. Once US Air is out, the rest will think about it also. SCREW ALPA. Prater screwed the MAJORITY of ALPA pilots, and deserves to be swinging from the gallows. The ALPA guzzlers are here PCL;REZ; etc.etc. always stating they know the EXACT inside, but it's only an opinion.

Dump ALPA, so the rest of the majors will follow.

 

[PositiveRate]

Turtle,

You deflect the issues because the answers to 2 very basic questions disprove every premise your arguments for 'rights' are based on.

Of course you would have preferred a merger as it was the only means of salvation for what remained of your career. And of course USAPA would not have come to pass if you had been granted your 'demands' from the arbitrator.

You keep trying to sugar coat this into something it's not....this is about you guys not getting what you wanted, so now you're going to try and take it.

 

[TWA Dude]

I hope US Air wins.

If you really meant that you'd be wishing for USAPA to lose. Trust me on that.

 

[TWA Dude]

My integrity has been proven, many times over.

I don't know about before but I do know that now you think it's A-okay for the Easties to take a course of action purely to disadvantage us Westies. No integrity in that.

I understand the East's attempts to obtain a FAIR seniority integration, rather than what Nicolau gave which is so obviously skewed toward the West that only the West pilots are blind to it.

The beauty is I/we Westies don't have to justify Nicolau. He justifies his opinion quite nicely on his own. You're not unbiased. I'm not unbiased. Any Eastie isn't unbiased. Nicolau is unbiased so for you to judge him is horsecookies.

Good question. Why *DOES* the West deserve the windfall? Why does the East deserve to get hosed?

What "windfall"? Seriously, SHOW ME THE WINDFALL! I was a junior FO before Nicolau and I'm a junior FO with Nicolau. Same thing goes for all the active East guys. The Easties lost their careers because of two bankruptcies and the only place for them to get their seats back is by depriving Westies of same. Nicolau saw that and prevented that blatent seat-grab. He prevented an East windfall, that's all.

I don't buy into his assertion that the East was headed for liquidation, nor do many of my peers and,

BFD. People believe what they want to believe. In May, 2005, USAirways was self-financed in Chapter 11 (ie, no DIP financier) and had no business plan forthcoming. Every financial analyst was expecting liquidation at any moment. I guess you're just more knowledgeable than them all.

let's face it, you wouldn't be doing ANY real international flying (except for Mexico) if you hadn't merged.

Got news for you, bucko. The Transition Agreement, you know, the thing that existed almost a full year before Nicolau ruled, dictated that all added airplanes were to be shared. Your point is moot.

The West's career expectations are greatly improved with the merger, without giving them super-seniority in some cases that is included in the Nicolau award.

Both side's career expectations were improved in the merger. But as Nicolau stated, one side gained much more than the other.

If you can't see this, then I can't help you. Many others outside your fight understand it...

Thank goodness I neither need nor want your help.

Of course it was *MORE* reasonable. The East wanted a staple (effectively by DOH). Saying the West was "more reasonable" is not the same as saying "the West's offer was completely fair and shared the career expectations of both carriers' pilots in a completely equitable manner".

Whether I think the West's proposal was more fair is irrelevent. Nicolau made that determination.

How dare you presume to know how much integrity I have.

I dare! They agreed to binding arbitration so just because they feel they got scewed they're justified in doing whatever the hell they please? Oh yes, I do indeed dare.

Works both ways, buddy. Try dropping the holy outrage and actually debating. You sound like a worked-up high school girl. Ease off the caffeine or something.

Ah, yes, when you can't make a point just dole out an ad hominem attack. Says a lot about you.

And it's easy to "say" that you would; that's the entire point I'm making.

And my entire point is that you've already proven that you wouldn't abide by that which you've agreed. You can speculate that I have no integrity but I can prove you don't.

I've bit a large bullet for our profession; I continue to live with the outcome of getting involved and helping raise the bar. I also watch many others who, when push comes to shove, won't practice what they preach.

Cry me a river. The minute it was announced that AWA might buy ATA I said I'm glad we've got ALPA Merger Policy. The minute we announced the merger with USAirways I went into the fetal position for two hours -- and then I said I was glad we had ALPA Merge Policy. The only fair way to deal with such disparate ideas of integration is for a neutral arbitrator to decide. Well, we got it. Funny how no Eastie claimed Nicolau was too old, senile, stupid, biased, or angry during the Shuttle integration. Only after he ruled did the epithets fly.

If you guys can't come to something amicable, the East will burn it down,

If the Easties want this place burned down I have no doubt they'll succeed. That's called a pyrrhic victory.

p.s. We've agreed about AA before but, again, the shoe was on the other foot in that scenario. You got screwed, no doubt about it. Now someone else is getting screwed, you're on the "non-screwed" end of the bargain, and you can't take a minute to see their point of view?

Once again, you've got a lot of nerve. Calling my hypocritical? With AA/TWA there was only the imposition of one side's desire and that's exactly what USAPA aims to do!!! They even fashioned their bylaws after the APA. The APA knew darned well an arbitrator would've given the TWAers something substantially better. The hypocricy is all yours.

Ignoring me won't change the facts that thousands of UAir pilots are going to suffer while many West pilots receive a windfall that only the merger provided.

Again, SHOW ME THE WINDFALL!!! On the day the merger was announced about half of all East and West pilots were FOs. Nicolau maintained that. How is that unfair? You know what, nevermind. I couldn't care less what you think is fair. If we went to an arbitrator I'd win this argument so that's good enough for me.

 

[regionaltard]

p.s. I totally support what UAir is doing, simply because I think they got hosed by the arbitrator.

You're confusing the fact that the East pilots almost certainly could have argued for and obtained a more favorable award with "getting hosed by the arbitrator." In fact, Nicolau arguably went beyond the scope of his authority when he warned the East that their leadership was taking them down the road to ruin. The arbitrator is required to craft his award from the positions offered by the parties, and the East simply didn't give him anything to work with.

The reason it's called "binding arbitration" is to keep one side from advancing a completely unrealistic agenda on the off chance that they might get lucky and sneak it past the neutral, secure in the knowledge that they'll get another shot if the land grab fails.

The East can and apparently will continue to crap the bed for the foreseeable future, but it doesn't change the fact that the blame for the perceived inequality of the award lies with their leadership. Undermining the basic premise of arbitration simply to quiet their tantrum is patently absurd.

 

[Double Shot]

******************** Alpa... time to discertify

 

[Lear70]

And my entire point is that you've already proven that you wouldn't abide by that which you've agreed. You can speculate that I have no integrity but I can prove you don't.

Glad to see you calmed down a bit. Your first post was a little hysterical and there was no need to go off on a character attack.

Secondly, what are you talking about in the above paragraph? I don't work at UAir. I haven't agreed to anything, nor am I breaching any sort of agreement.

You have proven nothing; except that you can go off on random tangents that have nothing to do with the conversation.

If the Easties want this place burned down I have no doubt they'll succeed. That's called a pyrrhic victory.

I'm well-aware of the term, which is what I don't understand about the West's position.

The East will get their Pyrrhic victory and the West will get what? An opportunity to start over at the bottom of a seniority list somewhere else?

Who gets to cut their losses? Is it now one big p*ssing contest to see who blinks first?

In that game, I'd say both sides are to blame, no matter of who started it first.

Once again, you've got a lot of nerve. Calling my hypocritical?

Yup. About the same amount of nerve you have telling me I have no integrity.

Doesn't feel good to have someone question you like that, does it? Might think before you post next time.

How is that unfair? You know what, nevermind. I couldn't care less what you think is fair. If we went to an arbitrator I'd win this argument so that's good enough for me.

Ummm... OK. Since you think you've "won", I'll just run along now...

Hint: NO ONE wins on these boards. I post on the UAir threads every once in a blue moon to get people to just take a second to consider two things:

1. How there's more than one side to this argument (although there's far more West supporters since there's more West pilots on this board - they're younger and internet-savvy - I bet half the East pilots have never been on an internet bulletin board in their life), and

2. If you dig your heels in and let the East burn it down, you've won your "moral victory" but have no career. Maybe some type of middle ground would be a better alternative?

That's all I'll say on the matter. I know I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine.

You're confusing the fact that the East pilots almost certainly could have argued for and obtained a more favorable award with "getting hosed by the arbitrator." In fact, Nicolau arguably went beyond the scope of his authority when he warned the East that their leadership was taking them down the road to ruin. The arbitrator is required to craft his award from the positions offered by the parties, and the East simply didn't give him anything to work with.

No, I'm not forgetting that at all. I agree with that assessment 100% and even said so once or twice in this thread.

I just feel bad for the rank-and-file UAir pilot who had NO idea their MEC was screwing them so badly with their ineptitude, and now is using the only weapon they have left.

Like I said, I understand their plight, agree with their fight, but not the way in which they're fighting it.

To top it off, the West pilots now are projecting their career plans based on Nicolau so anything that is proposed by the East as a gain is at the West's expense whereas converesely, if the UAir MEC had obtained it through Nicolau, there wouldn't be NEARLY the same amount of teeth-gnashing from the West side.

It's a sh*tty situation for both sides, and will make it a bitter and nasty place to work for decades; ten times worse than going through CLT right after the Piedmont purchase and (almost total) staple job...

 

[Turtle21]

Turtle,

You deflect the issues because the answers to 2 very basic questions disprove every premise your arguments for 'rights' are based on.

Of course you would have preferred a merger as it was the only means of salvation for what remained of your career. And of course USAPA would not have come to pass if you had been granted your 'demands' from the arbitrator.

You keep trying to sugar coat this into something it's not....this is about you guys not getting what you wanted, so now you're going to try and take it.

While your speculation of USAPA motives, AAA pilots desires, and arbitration wishes makes for a spirited topic of discussion, they are all irrelevant.

Motives are not factored into the NMB ruling regarding the dispute.

Prater's continued scowls and rebuke of the pilots will not serve to win over any votes. ALPA has failed and is incapable of making any improvements.

Its not that many people aren't well intentioned. They just have too many masters. He shouldn't take it personally and neither should you.

 

[Bringupthebird]

2. If you dig your heels in and let the East burn it down, you've won your "moral victory" but have no career. Maybe some type of middle ground would be a better alternative?

Considering the fragile nature of the airline industry at $100/bbl oil, what makes you think the west couldn't "burn the place down" if they are given no alternative (i.e. USAPA victory)? Furthermore, what evidence is there that a bunch of unemployable old frts would be willing to throw their meal ticket in the trash by "burning the place down" just to show the westies a thing or two? Never gonna happen.

C'mon, let's deal with reality for a change.

 

[Bringupthebird]

ALPA has failed and is incapable of making any improvements.

More precisely, ALPA has failed to side with the larger pilot group and crush the smaller. If ALPA chose to gut the arbitration process by allowing more bites at the apple until the dominant side was happy, then I would agree that they failed.

Did they fail in the DAL/NWA talks? No. That process was in the stage where you could bring forward solutions to integration issues. After an arbitration is decided, that time no longer exists. While it might be painful to watch the UAir pilots go through it, the consequences of being bull-headed can't be diminished by changing the rules or changing the union after the fact.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Whatever happened to ALPA's campaign of "Taking it Back"?

Is this part of it?

 

[PCL_128]

Maybe some type of middle ground would be a better alternative?

Of course, but no middle ground is possible as long as uSAPa is a threat. The only chance for a middle ground would be for the East to forget uSAPa and drop the lawsuit that aims to vacate the Nic award. If that were to happen, then with National's assistance, I guarantee that the two MECs could reach a mutually beneficial fence agreement that would end all of this nonsense. But as long as the Easties want to dig in and fight, middle ground will never happen.

 

[vetrider]

The east isn't seeking middle ground, they are seeking(demanding) everything they sought before as they point the figurative gun at the heads of the west. We aren't willing to negotiate? bull********************. We aren't willing to just capitulate, thats different than not being willing to negotiate. I love how we are made out to be the bad guy.

 

[Turtle21]

:angryfire :bomb: :nuts: :uzi: :smash:

And Prater still has a couple hold outs singing Koom ba ya and talking like ALPA can still have a solution to unity.:laugh:

 

[Lear70]

The east isn't seeking middle ground, they are seeking(demanding) everything they sought before as they point the figurative gun at the heads of the west. We aren't willing to negotiate? bull********************. We aren't willing to just capitulate, thats different than not being willing to negotiate. I love how we are made out to be the bad guy.

Didn't say you were the "bad guy", just saying it seems to be a lose-lose situation and I don't see anyone really forging a solution, East or West.

Already said I don't like the way they're doing it on the East, just understand why they're upset.

Like I said, I think the situation just sucks in general, no really good solution to be had now, thanks to the hardline East MEC during the arbitration.