FO/Flex how would you vote to integrate??

[luckydog]

Technically, unless your dues are a tax credit you aren't getting a complete 'write off'.

In any case, you're stating that a valid reason a current FO pilot wouldn't want to start at FJ is their the loss of the meal allowance. If that is the case, then stay put and get fat off of KRs credit card.

Starting pay at FJ is $309/day, that's about 64K on a 16 day line, 7 year pay is $402/day or 83K on 16 days. Initially only 2 weeks vacation + 7 other PTO days. 401k matching for 1st 6% + an additional contribution of 3%, per diem is $1.75/hr. Currently the schedule is seniority bid, new hires won't get one of their schedule choices for a long while. Plan on working a 6/4, 6/4, 5/3 type of pattern.

I wouldn't expect any captains to apply; FOs maybe depending on their personal priorities.

FJ pilots have no idea if this is a good deal for you guys, apply or don't but please STFU about union busting. Get the IBT to file a grievance if you don't like it, show Kenn who's boss.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

So you do you get to buy any meal at anytime that you want, place catering orders for the hours that you are flying and not pay for any of it out of your tax free per diem?

I can subtract my union dues from my per diem, if that's the number games that you want to play, but then put my union dues right back on my taxes for a write off.

We do get crew meals for pretty much all live legs. Just recently we have been able to select the meal we receive. And no, crew meals don't come out of our per diem. Not sure where that idea came from.

No, we can't buy why meal at any time on the company. But let's do some math.

You are a 15 year citation X captain. Let's compare your pay to a FJ 15 year Lear captain.

FO 15 year citation X captain on the 18 day flex salary = $106,142
FJ 15 year Lear captain at 15.5 days per bid period = $132,587

That comes to a difference of $26,445.

I would have to spend $131 per day on average (15.5 x 13 = 201.5 days worked) on food to equal $26,445.

The big difference you are missing here is that if you only spend $10,000 you get nothing more.

If I only spend $10,000 I get to keep the additional $16,445.

This is one of the areas in your contract that sounds great until you really think about it.

 

[BE40Driver]

So by my math, a 15 year BJ captain at FO would be pay frozen for 13 more years till a pay raise as a captain at Flex. Why would we want to do that! How would that make you feel knowing your SIC was making more than you as Captain.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

I can subtract my union dues from my per diem, if that's the number games that you want to play, but then put my union dues right back on my taxes for a write off.

Yes, you can deduct union dues on your federal income taxes.

The IRS publications say you can deduct all union dues that exceed 2% of your AGI.

How much of your union dues did you get to deduct last year? Bet it wasn't that much. Kinda takes part of your argument away.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

So by my math, a 15 year BJ captain at FO would be pay frozen for 13 more years till a pay raise as a captain at Flex. Why would we want to do that! How would that make you feel knowing your SIC was making more than you as Captain.

I don't follow your logic.

A 15 year BJ captain would be frozen at his salary he was making at FO.

When his FJ pay based on seat and LOS exceeded that his pay would increase.

Based on your pay scales and our junior captain LOS I can't imagine a scenario where one of your pilots would be making more than a FJ captain.

Even if they did, it wouldn't bother me.

 

[slowtation capt]

You are a 15 year citation X captain. Let's compare your pay to a FJ 15 year Lear captain.

FO 15 year citation X captain on the 18 day flex salary = $106,142
FJ 15 year Lear captain at 15.5 days per bid period = $132,587

That comes to a difference of $26,445.

I would have to spend $131 per day on average (15.5 x 13 = 201.5 days worked) on food to equal $26,445.

The big difference you are missing here is that if you only spend $10,000 you get nothing more.

If I only spend $10,000 I get to keep the additional $16,445.
.

Here's where you failed to include, didn't know about, or etc...The automatic percentage (3%) increases each time they extend the contract at yr 4 and 5 on top of the annual increase(3.5%)

FO 15 year citation X captain on the 18 day flex salary = $116,548
FJ 15 year Lear captain at 15.5 days per bid period = $132,587

That comes to a difference of $16,039.

I would have to spend $79 per day on average (15.5 x 13 = 201.5 days worked) on food to equal $16,039.

But since I work only 192 day, I guess it more of $84 a day

If I only spend $10,000 I get to keep the additional $6,039.

Since you make $658 a day

Flops 15yr Citation X Flex schedule makes $607

If he worked those extra 9.5 days, he would make an additional $5766.50+$116,548=$122,314.50

Now you are talking about a $10272.50 difference or just $51 a day of food.
And if you spend your $10,000, then you only keep $272.50

 

[el raton]

.....

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Here's where you failed to include, didn't know about, or etc...The automatic percentage (3%) increases each time they extend the contract at yr 4 and 5 on top of the annual increase(3.5%)

FO 15 year citation X captain on the 18 day flex salary = $116,548
FJ 15 year Lear captain at 15.5 days per bid period = $132,587

That comes to a difference of $16,039.

I would have to spend $79 per day on average (15.5 x 13 = 201.5 days worked) on food to equal $16,039.

But since I work only 192 day, I guess it more of $84 a day

If I only spend $10,000 I get to keep the additional $6,039.

Since you make $658 a day

Flops 15yr Citation X Flex schedule makes $607

If he worked those extra 9.5 days, he would make an additional $5766.50+$116,548=$122,314.50

Now you are talking about a $10272.50 difference or just $51 a day of food.
And if you spend your $10,000, then you only keep $272.50

Guess I shouldn't have picked a random number of $10,000.

I am sure the average pilot doesn't spend anywhere near that number.

We probably get breakfast in the hotel 75% of the time. While we are flying we get crew meals. The only real meal that I usually buy on the road is dinner.

I get I only average $25 per day of meal expenses on the road.

I was wondering since you guys work so hard always doing 14-10 and running into 10 in 24 several times a rotation, when would you have time to head to Manhattan on an overnight to eat at these expensive restaurants?

Good thing is that by July 1st we will all be on the same scheduling software. This will mean that reality that you probably work just as hard as we do will be available to see. Looking forward to the veil being lifted on your exaggerations.

 

[V1 Rotate]

So by my math, a 15 year BJ captain at FO would be pay frozen for 13 more years till a pay raise as a captain at Flex. Why would we want to do that! How would that make you feel knowing your SIC was making more than you as Captain.

If you get in on the front end of the hiring you'll upgrade within a few years. So, you'll see the jump from 15 year FLOPs CA pay to 3-5 year Lear CA pay fairly quickly. And the way it is right now, you wouldn't be paid more than any of our current Lear CA's or the ones that will be upgrading soon considering the most junior one will come in on the CA scale somewhere around the 8 year mark.

 

[DirtyBeech]

We probably get breakfast in the hotel 75% of the time.



Until some sweet soul decided to negotiate away our breakfasts. It's cold cereal and pastries nowadays unless you care to pony up for something warm or are at a Hampton or Holiday Express where you can feast on powdered eggs and curiously rubber styled bacon.

It's not appreciated btw. Nor is shelling out half to 2/3's of our less than standard per diem to get a decent breakfast when we stay at a nicer property.

Sorry. Hot button issue.

 

[Propilot77]

We probably get breakfast in the hotel 75% of the time.



Until some sweet soul decided to negotiate away our breakfasts. It's cold cereal and pastries nowadays unless you care to pony up for something warm or are at a Hampton or Holiday Express where you can feast on powdered eggs and curiously rubber styled bacon.

It's not appreciated btw. Nor is shelling out half to 2/3's of our less than standard per diem to get a decent breakfast when we stay at a nicer property.

Sorry. Hot button issue.

Would have to agree with this wholeheartedly! The quality of the hotels has dropped along with the breakfast. This all changed AFTER THE SALE!

 

[Dirty Squirrel]

Loosing our complimentary breakfast at the Crowne HPN, for example, will cost you $21.95 to start your day. In other news, NetJets still gets theirs for free.

 

[slowtation capt]

We probably get breakfast in the hotel 75% of the time.

Until some sweet soul decided to negotiate away our breakfasts. It's cold cereal and pastries nowadays unless you care to pony up for something warm or are at a Hampton or Holiday Express where you can feast on powdered eggs and curiously rubber styled bacon.

It's not appreciated btw. Nor is shelling out half to 2/3's of our less than standard per diem to get a decent breakfast when we stay at a nicer property.

Sorry. Hot button issue.

.

Would have to agree with this wholeheartedly! The quality of the hotels has dropped along with the breakfast. This all changed AFTER THE SALE!

Loosing our complimentary breakfast at the Crowne HPN, for example, will cost you $21.95 to start your day. In other news, NetJets still gets theirs for free.

I can only tell you the amount of times that we have checked into hotels, the front desk start to give us coupons for breakfast, and then they say; "Oh wait, I'm sorry, I thought you guys were NetJets"

Also, hate to say it, but just wait until the rate that the company negotiated is so low that you will no longer get the points.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

I can only tell you the amount of times that we have checked into hotels, the front desk start to give us coupons for breakfast, and then they say; "Oh wait, I'm sorry, I thought you guys were NetJets"

Also, hate to say it, but just wait until the rate that the company negotiated is so low that you will no longer get the points.

They used to give free breakfast at Priority Club properties based on status. That changed, I believe it was jan 1st. Us getting free breakfast isn't because of our room rate change, it is because of change in their policy. Several hotel chains are doing this since we are no longer in an economic downturn.

Are you saying you never get hotel points? That is surprising since we actually use the same travel company.

 

[ProFracPilot]

Are you saying you never get hotel points? That is surprising since we actually use the same travel company.

"Never" would be inaccurate. But we certainly do not get the points we once did.

And make no mistake - the disappearing points, breakfast, etc is due to lower negotiated room rates. Not to mention the diminishing quality of hotels in general. I'm seeing a lot more Wingates / Radisons / Holiday Inn Expresses these days and few Hilton properties.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

"Never" would be inaccurate. But we certainly do not get the points we once did.

And make no mistake - the disappearing points, breakfast, etc is due to lower negotiated room rates. Not to mention the diminishing quality of hotels in general. I'm seeing a lot more Wingates / Radisons / Holiday Inn Expresses these days and few Hilton properties.

Make no mistake that you are wrong.

For example:

We used to get breakfast in CCR at the Crowne Plaza.

I stayed there earlier this year at the SAME RATE and didn't get breakfast. I asked the manager and he said that all of the priority club properties that used to give us free breakfast based on status have changed. Our rate is not what gave use the breakfast, it was the status. Some of their hotels have free breakfast for everyone (holiday inn express) and those have not changed of course.

As far as I am aware Hilton has not changed their breakfast by status system.

Stayed at the Hyatt MMU and guess what, still had the same free breakfast included in our rate.

This doom and gloom sky is falling stuff has got to stop. Things hpmay have changed, but you are assuming they are the fault of the acquisition.

 

[slowtation capt]

We probably get breakfast in the hotel 75% of the time.

Until some sweet soul decided to negotiate away our breakfasts. It's cold cereal and pastries nowadays unless you care to pony up for something warm or are at a Hampton or Holiday Express where you can feast on powdered eggs and curiously rubber styled bacon.

It's not appreciated btw. Nor is shelling out half to 2/3's of our less than standard per diem to get a decent breakfast when we stay at a nicer property.

Sorry. Hot button issue.

Would have to agree with this wholeheartedly! The quality of the hotels has dropped along with the breakfast. This all changed AFTER THE SALE!

Loosing our complimentary breakfast at the Crowne HPN, for example, will cost you $21.95 to start your day. In other news, NetJets still gets theirs for free.

This doom and gloom sky is falling stuff has got to stop. Things hpmay have changed, but you are assuming they are the fault of the acquisition.

It's the first time that anyone from Flex has spoken up and actually said something has changed and they view it as a changed for the worse since the purchase.

And immediately you jump all over them about doom and gloom, it's not the fault of the acquisition.

Maybe start listening to what other people actually say, whether or not you like it, whether or not you choose to want to believe it, whether or not you agree with it, whether or not anything.

All you do is argue that everyone else is wrong and everything that comes out of you mouth and keyboard is the almighty words of the land.
Other people have thoughts and opinions, even some of your other fellow Flex pilots.

So go ahead, jump down their throats and tell them they are wrong, tell them that just because they lost a perk in the eyes that meant something to them, that they think it's all doom and gloom and that they are crazy for thinking that, and they need to stop it right this minute, or else......

 

[DirtyBeech]

You're just plain wrong on this. The pilot group is noticing less amenities and cheaper properties. Sure there are some factors outside of our rates like policy changes at some properties, but that's not the whole picture. Hamptons and Holiday Inn Expresses give away their breakfasts because it's pure crap that they serve. Ie. it's cheap.

 

[shanes123]

TWA cares about only himself and is going to do and say whatever it takes to keep himself in his comfy little world and he don't give a damn who's quality of life is comprised or why..This is why a guy like him hates Unions. He's not concerned about any fellow pilots or employees..He don't give a damn who's pay is frozen or who gets demoted or who after 13-25 years gets thrown into the right seat as long as its not him. But when KR is done using him like a little puppet and breaks all the promises of having a wonderful career he will be crying the loudest..And the ********************ed up part. (the one thing I can't stand about unions myself) the union will fight for his rights instead of telling him to screw off..Unions are far from perfect but its the only thing we got with KR at the helm

 

[warlord19]

Yea, life on the road here at Flex is really starting to suck. Just back from a 6 dayer, I was forced to stay in 1) Crown Plaza, 2) Red Roof, 3) 2 Hilton's and 4) a Hilton GI.
Ohh, the horror,, the horror.
WL