FO/Flex how would you vote to integrate??

[DirtyBeech]

Loss of breakfast is hardly a union rallying cry. It's irksome. It's also not how you go about challenging the industry leader.

 

[V1 Rotate]

Maybe start listening to what other people actually say, whether or not you like it, whether or not you choose to want to believe it, whether or not you agree with it, whether or not anything.

All you do is argue that everyone else is wrong and everything that comes out of you mouth and keyboard is the almighty words of the land.
Other people have thoughts and opinions, even some of your other fellow Flex pilots.

So go ahead, jump down their throats and tell them they are wrong, tell them that just because they lost a perk in the eyes that meant something to them, that they think it's all doom and gloom and that they are crazy for thinking that, and they need to stop it right this minute, or else......

Man, if this isn't the pot calling the kettle black. First, you basically give your name out and now you're lecturing someone on how to listen to others' views.

 

[dash_trash]

Not sure why that would be.

I was told we attemted to comtact the top 100.

Maybe the FO management "tailored" the list to just those that they thought we should interview. I am not privy to any of these details.

Speaks volumes as to the mgmt at Options doesn't it ...

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

You're just plain wrong on this. The pilot group is noticing less amenities and cheaper properties. Sure there are some factors outside of our rates like policy changes at some properties, but that's not the whole picture. Hamptons and Holiday Inn Expresses give away their breakfasts because it's pure crap that they serve. Ie. it's cheap.

Less amenities is one thing. Cheaper hotels is another.

I personally haven't seen the cheaper hotels, but if that is happening that is totally a different thing.

So far the hotels I have stayed at haven't changed in quality.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Speaks volumes as to the mgmt at Options doesn't it ...

Yes it does.

Glad they are being replaced.

 

[DirtyBeech]

Less amenities is one thing. Cheaper hotels is another.

I personally haven't seen the cheaper hotels, but if that is happening that is totally a different thing.

So far the hotels I have stayed at haven't changed in quality.

In many locations the preferred hotel simply can't be beat and so we'll stay at the Crown in HPN etc., but overnight at LAX and report back.

I know that I had to pay for a breakfast at a Hilton property recently where it was always comped before, and the comment about NJ's getting it while we didn't was made yet again. It's a tiring refrain.

 

[DirtyBeech]

Man, if this isn't the pot calling the kettle black. First, you basically give your name out and now you're lecturing someone on how to listen to others' views.

Could you edit this post so that it doesn't look like I made the quoted comments.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

TWA cares about only himself and is going to do and say whatever it takes to keep himself in his comfy little world and he don't give a damn who's quality of life is comprised or why..This is why a guy like him hates Unions. He's not concerned about any fellow pilots or employees..He don't give a damn who's pay is frozen or who gets demoted or who after 13-25 years gets thrown into the right seat as long as its not him. But when KR is done using him like a little puppet and breaks all the promises of having a wonderful career he will be crying the loudest..And the ********************ed up part. (the one thing I can't stand about unions myself) the union will fight for his rights instead of telling him to screw off..Unions are far from perfect but its the only thing we got with KR at the helm

So are you now still claiming you know me after you've been outed by yourself.

So you are now saying that you don't like unions because they protect everyone. So, almighty one, who is on the list of who should be protected and who isn't. And who made you the keeper of this list?

That is the problem with the union mentality. I want to protect everyone, have my seat at the table, oh wait, but not that guy, I don't agree with him.

You would want to defend someone who shows up to work drunk (seen a union do it) but not want to defend someone because their views differ from yours.

Oh, and remind us about what would happen if a FJ pilot would decide not to join your union and not pay his assessment instead of dues? Let's see:

11.1(c) If any pilot becomes delinquent in the payment of this service charge or any Union member becomes delinquent in payment of his initiation fees and/or dues, and/or periodic assessments, the Union shall notify such pilot by certified mail, return receipt requested, copy to the Company's Vice President of Flight Operations that he is delinquent in the payment of such service charge, initiation fee and/or membership dues and/or periodic assessments as specified herein and is subject to discharge as a pilot. Such letter shall also notify the Pilot that he must remit the required payment within a period of 15 days or be discharged.

11.1(d) If, upon the expiration of the 15 day period, the pilot still remains delinquent, the Union shall certify in writing to the Vice President of Flight Operations with a copy to the pilot that the pilot has failed to remit payment within the grace period allowed and is therefore to be discharged. The Vice President of Flight Operations shall notify the pilot by certified mail, return receipt requested, that he is to be discharged.

Man, per a previous post this sounds like the union is part of management since they can cause someone to be fired. Hmmmmm

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

In many locations the preferred hotel simply can't be beat and so we'll stay at the Crown in HPN etc., but overnight at LAX and report back.

I know that I had to pay for a breakfast at a Hilton property recently where it was always comped before, and the comment about NJ's getting it while we didn't was made yet again. It's a tiring refrain.

I guess I have been lucky and not really experienced this yet.

I really do hope the quality of our hotels doesn't decline.

 

[GooseHZ]

TWA

let me remind you why that pilot would be terminated. The Union has Duty of Fair Representation. DFR. All pilots on the seniority list whether they are in good standing or not will receive the full support of the Union. The federal government requires this from all unions. In return all pilots on the seniority list will either be in good standing or choose not to be. You will pay dues or what is called a maintenance fee. The federal Government made these regulations. A pilot can opt out of pay role deductions with dues or the MF. It then becomes the pilots sole responsibility to pay every month. If the pilots falls behind and refuses to pay the company is required by FEDERAL LAW to terminate that pilot. So no one can be a freeloader....what's wrong with that?

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

TWA

let me remind you why that pilot would be terminated. The Union has Duty of Fair Representation. DFR. All pilots on the seniority list whether they are in good standing or not will receive the full support of the Union. The federal government requires this from all unions. In return all pilots on the seniority list will either be in good standing or choose not to be. You will pay dues or what is called a maintenance fee. The federal Government made these regulations. A pilot can opt out of pay role deductions with dues or the MF. It then becomes the pilots sole responsibility to pay every month. If the pilots falls behind and refuses to pay the company is required by FEDERAL LAW to terminate that pilot. So no one can be a freeloader....what's wrong with that?

I always have had an issue with "closed shop" unions.

I don't want to be a freeloader, but you are going to force the company to fire me if I don't give you a % of my income. Sounds like blackmail to me.

Oh, and DFR is not 100% correct. If the 1108 didn't elect to be a closed shop there could be pilots that were not members and also not pay dues. The 1108 would have no responsibility to represent them. The 1108 or the FO pilots (not sure who) made this a closed shop.

Once again, you made this mandatory, not the FEDERAL LAW that you hide behind.

Next.......

 

[GooseHZ]

It's the law. Not blackmail. Call your representatives and talk to them about changing the labor laws. Representing the whole pilot group takes money and that's why the laws where written that way.

Your an at will employee who can be fired for anything. But your worried about Federal law regarding DFR? Seems to me your just doing anything you can to demonize the Union.

Good debate tho....nice and clean. Lol

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

It's the law. Not blackmail. Call your representatives and talk to them about changing the labor laws. Representing the whole pilot group takes money and that's why the laws where written that way.

Your an at will employee who can be fired for anything. But your worried about Federal law regarding DFR? Seems to me your just doing anything you can to demonize the Union.

Good debate tho....nice and clean. Lol

I stand corrected. Ohio is not a right to work state.

Bet the union will do everything in its power to keep the operations based there.

Texas on the other hand is a right to work state. Unions can't force employees to join unless the CBA requires it. Seems like a much more fair arrangement.

 

[BlueNose]

I stand corrected. Ohio is not a right to work state.

Bet the union will do everything in its power to keep the operations based there.

Texas on the other hand is a right to work state. Unions can't force employees to join unless the CBA requires it. Seems like a much more fair arrangement.

Wouldn't matter, right to work statutes don't apply to employers and employees covered by RLA. At a company with a pilots union, whether you join or not you're compelled to pay the union, dues are just called something else if you're not a member.

http://www.nrtw.org/a/a_1_r.htm

"Employment relations for employees in the railway and airline industries are covered by the Railway Labor Act (RLA). Railway and airline employees are not protected by state Right to Work laws."

 

[BlueNose]

Loss of breakfast is hardly a union rallying cry. It's irksome. It's also not how you go about challenging the industry leader.

Duplicate post deleted.

 

[BlueNose]

Loss of breakfast is hardly a union rallying cry. It's irksome. It's also not how you go about challenging the industry leader.

I predict you'll notice a gradual but steady accumulation of such small changes over the next couple of years - changes intended to provide some savings to the company or make some manager's job easier, but which in small ways erode employee morale and customer service. The pace is intended to be slow enough to boil a frog, but those of you who care about providing top service will notice and be frustrated because you know it doesn't have to be this way, that most of the savings are illusory in the long term, and that industry-leading service cultures aren't built like this.

Many will hardly notice, however, and will slog along in their everyday routines just doing their jobs with a slowly-growing sense of mistrust, frustration, and finally resignation. I think that's what you'll find with most FO crews outside the IBT adherents. KR may not have brought about the unionization of this group, but he's been back as the leader for 6+ years now. If he truly managed by trust, treating employees as the foundation of a service company, with an eye to long-term relationships and providing top customer service - his words published in his own book - then the union would already have been decertified. That he has not regained the trust of a majority, all of which hired on in his first term as leader, and with a truckers union as their only alternative, should speak volumes as to what you can expect. Sorry.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

I predict you'll notice a gradual but steady accumulation of such small changes over the next couple of years - changes intended to provide some savings to the company or make some manager's job easier, but which in small ways erode employee morale and customer service. The pace is intended to be slow enough to boil a frog, but those of you who care about providing top service will notice and be frustrated because you know it doesn't have to be this way, that most of the savings are illusory in the long term, and that industry-leading service cultures aren't built like this.

Many will hardly notice, however, and will slog along in their everyday routines just doing their jobs with a slowly-growing sense of mistrust, frustration, and finally resignation. I think that's what you'll find with most FO crews outside the IBT adherents. KR may not have brought about the unionization of this group, but he's been back as the leader for 6+ years now. If he truly managed by trust, treating employees as the foundation of a service company, with an eye to long-term relationships and providing top customer service - his words published in his own book - then the union would already have been decertified. That he has not regained the trust of a majority, all of which hired on in his first term as leader, and with a truckers union as their only alternative, should speak volumes as to what you can expect. Sorry.

So what you Re saying is that if we vote in the IBT we will get to keep our remaining free breakfasts, hotel points and other perks because those are part of the CBA?

If so, can you please point to that part because I looked it over and couldn't find it.

 

[BlueNose]

So what you Re saying is that if we vote in the IBT we will get to keep our remaining free breakfasts, hotel points and other perks because those are part of the CBA?

If so, can you please point to that part because I looked it over and couldn't find it.

I said that where, exactly? Did you ever think that there might be a perspective to this situation beyond a strictly pro- or anti-union argument? Careful, you're looking a lot like the one-trick pony that the pro-union posters are accusing you of being. I'm sure KR will take good care of you. Keep up the fight, and be sure to check back in a few years and let us know how it works out for you.

 

[shanes123]

TWA my point about the union protecting people like you has nothing to do with your difference of opinion. It's you only caring about your individual situation and not your fellow pilots you wouldn't sacrifice a thing for the majority of the group. Your like a spoiled selfish 6 year old. And my comment about union protecting you can be compared with a defense attorney defending a pedophile. You know the guys a real scumbag but he still has to fight to defend the sick pig

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

TWA my point about the union protecting people like you has nothing to do with your difference of opinion. It's you only caring about your individual situation and not your fellow pilots you wouldn't sacrifice a thing for the majority of the group. Your like a spoiled selfish 6 year old. And my comment about union protecting you can be compared with a defense attorney defending a pedophile. You know the guys a real scumbag but he still has to fight to defend the sick pig

And this knowledge that I only care about my individual situation and not my fellow pilots come from where?

Notice that you are now no longer claiming you know me personally. So, since this has been proven to be a lie it really speaks to the credibility of anything else you have have or will say on here.

Oh, and where have I demonstrated that I wouldn't sacrifice a thing for my fellow pilots? You are once again making vague and baseless accusations because you want to discredit me.