FO/Flex how would you vote to integrate??

[wingsnthings]

LMFAO!!! I have to back up and point out the irony here! Shanes outted TWA long ago, then in one simple post he outted himself! Too good to be true. Way to go moron! LOL!

 

[The Architect]

Wrong!

They were contacted in seniority order. We reached out to the top 100 or so.

What's the source of your information that contradicts this?

Do I really need to pull out the "L" word?

Absolutely false.

"Reached out?" What's that? Read their name aloud with two people in the room. Because the majority of the "top 100 or so" were not contacted.

Source?

Well, let's see.

Flexjet Pilots Seniority List #321 Hired 12/15/2013
Flight Options Pilots Seniority List #312 Furloughed

Good guy. He is not at fault. But, definitely interviewed and hired out of seniority. Check the names of those swimming in the pool. By the way, their arms are getting tired.

 

[wingsnthings]

Thought you didn't know who I was ? But you mention kcak? Lies effect your credibility TWA. I know that TWA won't get this but let me ask this question to the rest of the fj guys. If KR is willing to staple 13-25yr employes to the bottom of the list and freeze there pay what do you think the future holds for a bunch of guys he doesn't even know and a company he hasn't even owned a year with no contract protection? (Come on TWA please hire me? I will be a good little soldier and kiss ass everyday. I promise)

Still laughing that you Shane. I'll try to answer your question. The FO pay would be frozen at current rates then will increase when the FJ pay scale passes current pay. I don't see how this is bad for someone that wanted to come over to FJ. It isn't mandatory or forced, so it would be a personal choice Shane.

 

[The Architect]

Instant Pay Raise

Still laughing that you Shane. I'll try to answer your question. The FO pay would be frozen at current rates then will increase when the FJ pay scale passes current pay. I don't see how this is bad for someone that wanted to come over to FJ. It isn't mandatory or forced, so it would be a personal choice Shane.

So, doesn't the equate to an instant pay raise?

Or am I missing something?

 

[wingsnthings]

So, doesn't the equate to an instant pay raise?

Or am I missing something?

It would depend on what the FO pilots pay is when they are hired. If it is less than first year pay, it would be an increase in pay. If their pay is more than the first year pay, then no it wouldn't be a pay raise, but wouldn't be a pay cut. The FO pilot would also get 401k match which I consider a raise.

 

[dash_trash]

They were contacted in seniority order. We reached out to the top 100 or so.

What's the source of your information that contradicts this?

Hmmmm ... same address and phone number for the last nine years and I have yet to receive a phone call ... and I'm well within that top 100.

Then again ... I was heavily involved with the union ... Hmmmm

 

[shanes123]

Hmmmm ... same address and phone number for the last nine years and I have yet to receive a phone call ... and I'm well within that top 100.

Then again ... I was heavily involved with the union ... Hmmmm

Didn't KR already get sued for this and lose??? to the tune of about 7 million if I recall. Thats what the Fab 5 got paid!! History repeats itself again

 

[shanes123]

I know that TWA won't get this but let me ask this question to the rest of the fj guys. If KR is willing to staple 13-25yr employes to the bottom of the list and freeze there pay what do you think the future holds for a bunch of guys he doesn't even know and a company he hasn't even owned a year with no contract protection?

 

[V1 Rotate]

Hmmmm ... same address and phone number for the last nine years and I have yet to receive a phone call ... and I'm well within that top 100.

Then again ... I was heavily involved with the union ... Hmmmm

If you feel that you were passed over and you'd like to interview here then I would suggest that you contact our HR department. Any of us would be glad to get her e-mail to you.

And for the active FLOPs guys coming over, if your ego isn't too large to sit right seat for 3-4 years, it would more than likely, based on today's payrates, be financially advantageous for you to make the jump. You wouldn't have to wait 15 years as Shanes123 suggested. Once you upgraded, even the Lear CA scale would bring you upward. But if it's schedule you're after then yet probably better off staying put.

 

[Praetorian]

I know that TWA won't get this but let me ask this question to the rest of the fj guys. If KR is willing to staple 13-25yr employes to the bottom of the list and freeze there pay what do you think the future holds for a bunch of guys he doesn't even know and a company he hasn't even owned a year with no contract protection?

I think this ^^^ is a very good question. I think some other good questions are, as a result of accepting employment at Flex:

1. Why would any FO pilot accept - even with a pay freeze - what would amount to an over $7,000 annual pay cut (in lost per diem) which would result from the resulting elimination of his/her contractial meal program benefit?
2. Why would any FO pilot accept a pay freeze?
3. Why would any FO pilot accept the humiliation of at-will employment.

I personally think all of this is nothing but a very lame trial balloon being floated by a few management stooges, at the behest of their masters, here on FI.

Let me again remind all of you what Martin Levit said in Confessions of a union buster:

"For my campaigns I identified two key targets: the rank-and-file workers and their immediate supervisors. The supervisors (or in this case, lead check-airman) served as my front line. I took them hostage on the first day and sent them to anti-union boot camp. I know that people who didn't feel threatened wouldn't fight. So through hours of seminars, rallies, and one-on-one encounters, I taught the supervisors to despise and fear the union. I persuaded them that a union-organizing drive was a personal attack on them, a referendum on their leadership skills, and an attempt to humiliate them. I was friendly, even jovial at times, but always unforgiving as I compelled each supervisor to feel he was somehow to blame for the union push and consequently obliged to defeat it. Like any hostages, most supervisors could not resist for long. They soon came to see the fight through the eyes of their captor and went to work wringing union sympathies out of their workers."

 

[luckydog]

1. Why would any FO pilot accept - even with a pay freeze - what would amount to an over $7,000 annual pay cut (in lost per diem) which would result from the resulting elimination of his/her contractial meal program benefit?
2. Why would any FO pilot accept a pay freeze?
3. Why would any FO pilot accept the humiliation of at-will employment.

WHY, WHY, WHY, none of us know WHY anyone does anything... If anyone feels that being a FJ pilot is better for them, apply. If someone feels that staying at FO is better, don't APPLY.

oh, and pound sand with that 'humiliation of at will employment' crap.

 

[V1 Rotate]

I think this ^^^ is a very good question. I think some other good questions are, as a result of accepting employment at Flex:

1. Why would any FO pilot accept - even with a pay freeze - what would amount to an over $7,000 annual pay cut (in lost per diem) which would result from the resulting elimination of his/her contractial meal program benefit?
2. Why would any FO pilot accept a pay freeze?
3. Why would any FO pilot accept the humiliation of at-will employment.

I personally think all of this is nothing but a very lame trial balloon being floated by a few management stooges, at the behest of their masters, here on FI.

Let me again remind all of you what Martin Levit said in Confessions of a union buster:

"For my campaigns I identified two key targets: the rank-and-file workers and their immediate supervisors. The supervisors (or in this case, lead check-airman) served as my front line. I took them hostage on the first day and sent them to anti-union boot camp. I know that people who didn't feel threatened wouldn't fight. So through hours of seminars, rallies, and one-on-one encounters, I taught the supervisors to despise and fear the union. I persuaded them that a union-organizing drive was a personal attack on them, a referendum on their leadership skills, and an attempt to humiliate them. I was friendly, even jovial at times, but always unforgiving as I compelled each supervisor to feel he was somehow to blame for the union push and consequently obliged to defeat it. Like any hostages, most supervisors could not resist for long. They soon came to see the fight through the eyes of their captor and went to work wringing union sympathies out of their workers."

You think you're pretty clever accusing, at least me since I only speak for myself, of being a management union buster. I couldn't be any more removed from a manager if I tried. That being said, let's address your issues:

1. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will), but based on you doing 8/6's all year with no vacation I calculated around $8,500 in per diem for you. That's only about $2,000 more than what I brought home. And, it sounds like you'd rather have a meal plan vs getting our benefits??? Just because we're not a union shop???

2. I'm with ya on the pay freeze. If a FLOPs pilot comes over then his pay should continue to increase as it would at FLOPs until the Flexjet scale catches up then rise with it. I'd have no issues with that.

3. Your 1108 tunnel vision is preventing you from seeing that Flexjet pilots aren't the laughing stock of the major fractional companies. FLOPs is.

And for the quote from the union busting exec, he sounds like a despicable man to have to work for. And if Ricci is that bad, then shame on him. But for you to put me in the same company as Mr. Levit, you're way off base. With your trashing of non union employees and managers, I could quote Karl Marx and his Communist Manifesto on how to demonize and destroy those with whom you disagree. So, we can go back and forth for thousands of posts on here but the name calling and categorizing of those with whom you disagree with is pointless.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Do I really need to pull out the "L" word?

Absolutely false.

"Reached out?" What's that? Read their name aloud with two people in the room. Because the majority of the "top 100 or so" were not contacted.

Source?

Well, let's see.

Flexjet Pilots Seniority List #321 Hired 12/15/2013
Flight Options Pilots Seniority List #312 Furloughed

Good guy. He is not at fault. But, definitely interviewed and hired out of seniority. Check the names of those swimming in the pool. By the way, their arms are getting tired.

The stats I heard were we reached out to the top 100.

Of those, about 25 were interested or contactable.

After the phone interviews we brought 15 or so in for the face-to-face interview.

We hired 1 so far and placed 5-6 in the pool that are waiting on class dates.

Not sure where the conspiracy is here. We are selective in who we hire. We weren't offering jobs to these pilots, just interviews.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Hmmmm ... same address and phone number for the last nine years and I have yet to receive a phone call ... and I'm well within that top 100.

Then again ... I was heavily involved with the union ... Hmmmm

Not sure why that would be.

I was told we attemted to comtact the top 100.

Maybe the FO management "tailored" the list to just those that they thought we should interview. I am not privy to any of these details.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

So, doesn't the equate to an instant pay raise?

Or am I missing something?

It depends on their LOS and fleet/seat.

A first officer would probably see an increase in pay.

A 15 year Capt would have their pay frozen at their current rate until their FJ pay would surpass that rate.

I Heven't seen this in any official communication, just a rumor. I hope it is true for those FO pilots it would benefit.

 

[slowtation capt]

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will), but based on you doing 8/6's all year with no vacation I calculated around $8,500 in per diem for you. That's only about $2,000 more than what I brought home. And, it sounds like you'd rather have a meal plan vs getting our benefits??? Just because we're not a union shop??

7/7, 8/7, Flex - Those are the schedules

That $2,000 more, is that $2000 more of per diem then you brought home, or is that $2000 more of salary when you combine our salary with tax free per diem that we don't spend.

 

[Praetorian]

You think you're pretty clever accusing, at least me since I only speak for myself, of being a management union buster. I couldn't be any more removed from a manager if I tried. That being said, let's address your issues:

I really am sorry, I wasn't accusing you of anything and I've never thought that anything you've personally said on here reminded me of management. I really thought everyone knew who the manager was on here:

I have been involved in the interview process. We will start interviewing active FO pilots this fall who wish to resign and come to FJ.

The ability to hire is one of the things that make up the legal definition of "management".

1. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will), but based on you doing 8/6's all year with no vacation I calculated around $8,500 in per diem for you. That's only about $2,000 more than what I brought home. And, it sounds like you'd rather have a meal plan vs getting our benefits??? Just because we're not a union shop???

FO pilots receive, per the CBA, $40.80 per day of per Diem. Assuming a pilot works 22 eight day rotations per year (some only work 21, as they receive three weeks of vacation per year and some work a 7/7 schedule so the numbers are different). That works out to $7,180.80 of per Diem per year. Thing is, unlike you, we get to keep all of it. This is because the CBA stipulates that we can expense all of our meals while on the road and there is no $$ limit. BTW, I recommend that the next time you're in TEB you go into the city and try the Chateaubriand at Keens on W. 36th St., it's to die for. I usually also get the Lincoln's Oysters, most excellent.

2. I'm with ya on the pay freeze. If a FLOPs pilot comes over then his pay should continue to increase as it would at FLOPs until the Flexjet scale catches up then rise with it. I'd have no issues with that.

It's not worth squat, if it can all be taken away with a Friday afternoon email.

3. Your 1108 tunnel vision is preventing you from seeing that Flexjet pilots aren't the laughing stock of the major fractional companies. FLOPs is.

Really? I think you should ask a few NJ pilots about this. Because unlike you guys, who continue to bow and scrape for the crumbs off managements table, the pilots at FO and NJ have fought for what we have and will continue to do so. And in the fall we will be back at the bargaining table fighting for more, just like the NJ guys are fighting right now. Meanwhile, what will you guys be doing to advance the Fractional piloting profession? I mean its like the kid in high school who flinches in the face of the bully calling the kid who stands up to him "the laughing stock". Ridiculous.

And for the quote from the union busting exec, he sounds like a despicable man to have to work for. And if Ricci is that bad, then shame on him. But for you to put me in the same company as Mr. Levit, you're way off base. With your trashing of non union employees and managers, I could quote Karl Marx and his Communist Manifesto on how to demonize and destroy those with whom you disagree. So, we can go back and forth for thousands of posts on here but the name calling and categorizing of those with whom you disagree with is pointless.

Martin Levitt was not a "union busting exec", he was a consultant who advised union-busting managers about best methods and practices for keeping unions out and busting the existing unions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_J._Levitt
I'm simply suggesting that some of the tactics we are seeing employed by one of your lower level managers on here are reminiscent of some of the tactics in the playbook he and others developed back in the 70's, when the modern multi-billion dollar union-busting industry emerged. http://unionbustingplaybook.com/

 

[warlord19]

to PRAETORIAN, ET AL

Some of you guys might consider lightning up on the Lincoln Oysters et al…kinda showing up around the waistline on some of you, know what i mean.

Oh, and I don’t recall ever having to bow, scrape, kiss ass or lick boots for what we have…we’ve always been offered a yearly competitive employment package, and it was ours to accept or reject….have you ever heard of such a concept?

and, if you fellas want to subtract your annual 1108 “dues”, you won’t find much difference in your and our per diem.

Good luck with your next negotiations…I predict one day you might come close to our package.
WL

 

[luckydog]

The ability to expense meals on the road is a nice perk, but it would be wasted on me. I like to save my calories for when I'm at home .

I much prefer having 401k matching and bonus contributions; that money compounds in the bank, not on the hips.

 

[slowtation capt]

and, if you fellas want to subtract your annual 1108 ?dues?, you won?t find much difference in your and our per diem.

So you do you get to buy any meal at anytime that you want, place catering orders for the hours that you are flying and not pay for any of it out of your tax free per diem?

I can subtract my union dues from my per diem, if that's the number games that you want to play, but then put my union dues right back on my taxes for a write off.