Flopsions Management....Corupt Third World Mentality

[Galaxy]

There you go, taking credit for my silence when I'm on the other side of the pond. What?? Is this what they call a UNION busting vacation? Too lagged right now to respond properly, but the negative history of aviation unions and "industry leading contracts" is stable in a negative fashion, and doesn't need anything more than a unionized group of pilots moaning and groaning about how they are treated by management to prove my point. Since you only post in the FRAC forum-please try to keep your knowledge and reference to the fractional UNION IBT 1108. The union stirs things up, make everybody in the company miserable ( Is NJA Miserable?-NOT) and often places the company in jeapardy. More to follow.... after some sleep. (You mean your MGT meeting right?)

BS-are you slow or something?? Just answer the questions that keep coming up for you. I know they are hard because you will have to admit the IBT 1108 has done well for its members as well as for MGT and NJA's bottom line.

 

[fischman]

There you go, taking credit for my silence when I'm on the other side of the pond. Too lagged right now to respond properly, but the negative history of aviation unions and "industry leading contracts" is stable in a negative fashion, and doesn't need anything more than a unionized group of pilots moaning and groaning about how they are treated by management to prove my point. The union stirs things up, make everybody in the company miserable and often places the company in jeapardy. More to follow.... after some sleep.

First off. This has nothing to do with Unions. It has to do with you being a moron.

Re-read post #80

 

[B19 Flyer]

First off. This has nothing to do with Unions. It has to do with you being a moron.

Re-read post #80

The name calling is silly, but you support unions so I shouldn't take offense at it.

Here is the response I didn't have time for earlier.

Originally Posted by B19 Flyer
I've repeatedly stated that unions had their day. But pilots are not steel workers, factory workers and aren't forced to work in conditions that are not highly regulated by a governing body.

It's not 1933 anymore... the unions had their place in history. Unions were once there to protect.

You just don't get it do you? That is the prime directive of Unions.

No, you are WRONG. Unions DO NOT PROTECT TODAY!!!!

The prime directive of unions 70 years ago was to protect employees from working 100 hours a week for wages that did not allow them to feed their families, in working conditions that were dangerous at best. Union protection was needed when the federal government had no restrictions or labor laws to protect employees.

Today, your wages fischman (as you state below) are not just there to feed your family or pay your rent. At nearly 120,000 a year, your wages are is more than double than that of the average American. Today’s union greed will justify a high paycheck and work rules that union workers of the ‘30s would classify as sheer laziness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States


By union standards in 1930, representation was there attempting to bring the average employee up to a level that at least compared to the average American, not double and triple the income as today’s greedy union has done on the backs of the other employees.

You complain about your seven on and seven off schedule? Maybe your boat payment is late?

In 1930 employees were working 7 days A WEEK and barely could pay rent or put food on the table, boat payment? Hah! Now, if they could find a way to get that coal dust out of their lungs..

When was the last time you had to work 30 days straight and in the end of that 30 days you couldn’t put food on the table? You had the choice to become a pilot. Many of those early unionized companies were in locations where there WAS no other work and people needed to go there because there wasn’t any other work. You had a choice, you had the opportunity to become a pilot, THEY DIDN’T!! They had to work in the factories.

Yes, UNIONS HAD THEIR PLACE IN TIME, but to compare what a union does today with what they did back then is the most ludicrous thing I’ve ever heard!!!


Now they are there not to produce a livable working wage, it's become an industry within itself and is there to strangle every single penny possible from hard working people.

You just don't get it do you? 1 hour of OT (which I get due to the collective bargaining from the union) pays my dues every month. It is money well spent.


In effect, what a union was once there to protect has run full circle. Now, they will cost jobs and reduce pay to the point of forcing the carrier out of business.



You just don't get it do you? When I started NJA in '05, my pay was $27,800. My BASE pay in '08 will be $118,000,

Congratulations. I had to restart my career twice because of unions, as have hundreds of thousands of other aviations workers. Oh, and not to burst your bubble, I averaged five years between the forced changes.. Three years? ROFL.. you are nothing but a babe in the woods...


You just don't get it do you? What happened at NJA between '05 and '07 (besides the excellent skills of yours truly)? The pilot's got a massive pay raise, and we STILL managed to make money!!!

NJ has a long way to go to prove that it can withstand an “Industry leading CBA”. Aviation history has been very successful in shooting down "Industry Leading CBAs". NJ has been a loser until recently, and it’s not because of the union as much as the union would like to take credit for it.

That wasn't the original intent of organizing.

You just don't get it do you? Grow up man. Get with the times.

No you are the one that doesn’t get it, and you can rest assured that if and when the economy stumbles, and along with it goes a high percentage of NJ jobs and the turmoil of concessions to keep the company alive I’ll be the one that doesn’t have to worry about a job change or figuring out how to make my boat payment.

NJ hasn’t been in business long enough to provide a good basis with a fractional model that technically has only been around for 3 years or so. If legacy carriers are struggling with a way to be profitable after over 75 years of practice and unions, you aren't so naive to think that NJ and 1108 have figured it all out in 3 do you? If so, it confirms that YOU DON'T GET IT!

I hope for your sake it doesn’t happen, but when it does, and it most likely will, hang on and watch the union dig it’s heels in while everything folds around them..

Then, and only then will you see just how much your CBA (and the paper it’s not even worth being written on) is worth and how your union protects you and your coworkers…

I don't need to worry about it...

 

[B19 Flyer]

BS-are you slow or something?? Just answer the questions that keep coming up for you. I know they are hard because you will have to admit the IBT 1108 has done well for its members as well as for MGT and NJA's bottom line.

No, this isn't just about 1108, they are a union that is attempting to take over the entire industry. 1108 has had how many successful aviation CBAs?

(Oh, and successful is one that was negotiated, implemented, approved by the membership and ran it's full course from beginning to end without concessions or renegotiations, allowed the company to be profitable and expand without layoffs or furloughs to ANY company employee)

1108 has a long way to go and is failing miserably at FLOPS.

 

[Galaxy]

No, this isn't just about 1108, they are a union that is attempting to take over the entire industry. 1108 has had how many successful aviation CBAs?

(Oh, and successful is one that was negotiated, implemented, approved by the membership and ran it's full course from beginning to end without concessions or renegotiations, allowed the company to be profitable and expand without layoffs or furloughs to ANY company employee)

1108 has a long way to go and is failing miserably at FLOPS.

Ahh yes this is ONLY about the 1108. We could care less about ALPA or any other union that is NOT the 1108. If they take over the entire fractional industry-well then GOOD.
I think the 1108 was successful with a contract with NJA. Will they be successful with FLOPS? That is MGT's decision not the UNION. The 1108 has continously asked MGT for more bargaining sessions with no luck. But then again-seeing you are the self proclaimed pro on unions-you already knew that.

 

[AeroBoy]

If anything, Flight Options management is miserably failing its pilots/employees, not to mention customers.

 

[Galaxy]

You just don't get it do you? When I started NJA in '05, my pay was $27,800. My BASE pay in '08 will be $118,000,

Congratulations. I had to restart my career twice because of unions, as have hundreds of thousands of other aviations workers. Oh, and not to burst your bubble, I averaged five years between the forced changes.. Three years? ROFL.. you are nothing but a babe in the woods...

They claim these are the salary levels.
Entry Level-10K-30K
Middle Income-30K-50K
Upper Middle Income-50K 80K
High Income-80K to 100K
Six Figure-100K+

They also list the average small jet PIC as 137,700K/yr that includes Base Salary(95,998), Bonus,SS,401K,Disability,Health Care,Pensions,Time Off.
Large jet base salary is 112,098 for a total of 162,500K/yr

What exactly is it you want pilots to make?
Besides--what do you really care-unless you are an owner-because that is who is really paying the salary. You will find that all the fraction owners love the crews it is dealing with the internal departments of the company that drives them away. Wise up and get with the program. The unions are back because of mismanagement and GREED from MGT.
By the way my favorite Union information campain was before the contract and was the one that listed the percentage of NJA pilots that were elligible for govt assistance and how many had second jobs to support their families. I think that the owners are now happy that the pilots at the front of their multi million dollar jet are now worrying about things like the flight they are doing and not wondering how to pay the next bill that comes in the mail. Pilots are professionals-PERIOD! Pay them as such.

 

[fischman]

First off, I appreciate your response. I don't agree with a bit of it, but this is the FIRST TIME IN MONTHS you actually came up with responses to comments or questions. You usually only spit out the same rhetoric that has nothing to do with the questions asked.

Originally Posted by B19 Flyer

No, you are WRONG. Unions DO NOT PROTECT TODAY!!!! How can you justify this statement? How can you think Unions today don't protect their members?


You complain about your seven on and seven off schedule? Maybe your boat payment is late? I have NEVER complained about the 7&7 schedule, and don't have a boat. The bulk of my earnings go to provide the best future possible for my kids.

In 1930 employees were working 7 days A WEEK and barely could pay rent or put food on the table, boat payment? Hah! You are describing much of America these days, the Union membership seems to be the ones who are safe. Maybe the Unions have protected them...
When was the last time you had to work 30 days straight and in the end of that 30 days you couldn’t put food on the table? Feb '05.

Yes, UNIONS HAD THEIR PLACE IN TIME, but to compare what a union does today with what they did back then is the most ludicrous thing I’ve ever heard!!! It seems to me that unions today are fighting to get better wages and improved quality of life for the membership. How is that different?


Now they are there not to produce a livable working wage, it's become an industry within itself and is there to strangle every single penny possible from hard working people.

You just don't get it do you? 1 hour of OT (which I get due to the collective bargaining from the union) pays my dues every month. It is money well spent.
Got nothing for that one do you???


In effect, what a union was once there to protect has run full circle. Now, they will cost jobs and reduce pay to the point of forcing the carrier out of business. Sorry man, I'm calling BS on that one...



You just don't get it do you? When I started NJA in '05, my pay was $27,800. My BASE pay in '08 will be $118,000,

Congratulations. I had to restart my career twice because of unions, as have hundreds of thousands of other aviations workers. Oh, and not to burst your bubble, I averaged five years between the forced changes.. Three years? ROFL.. you are nothing but a babe in the woods... Just because I started NJA in '05 doesn't mean I am a spring chicken.


You just don't get it do you? What happened at NJA between '05 and '07 (besides the excellent skills of yours truly)? The pilot's got a massive pay raise, and we STILL managed to make money!!!

NJ has been a loser until recently, and it’s not because of the union as much as the union would like to take credit for it. ???????????? I think you are grossly misinformed on that one. NJA has always been the industry leader...

That wasn't the original intent of organizing.

You just don't get it do you? Grow up man. Get with the times.

No you are the one that doesn’t get it, and you can rest assured that if and when the economy stumbles, and along with it goes a high percentage of NJ jobs and the turmoil of concessions to keep the company alive I’ll be the one that doesn’t have to worry about a job change or figuring out how to make my boat payment. I will be the first one to eat my words if that ever happens, however I don't think it ever will. I believe you do not understand the economics of the people we fly, For the most part, they are immune to economic stumbles. It would take a full depression to effect them in the manner you are describing, and in that case it will be more than the union workers who are hurting.

NJ hasn’t been in business long enough to provide a good basis with a fractional model that technically has only been around for 3 years or so. Ummmm... you are off a couple of years on that one. I'll give you a little history lesson. Executive Jet started in 1964 by Paul Tibbets. It was then purchased by Richard Santulli in 1986 who started the idea of fractional jet ownership. He then renamed the company as NetJets in the early '90s (I don't remember the exact date off the top of my head) mainly because every time a biz jet would go down the papers would say an "Executive Jet" had an accident. We didn't want the public thinking that every time an "Executive Jet" crashed it was us. If legacy carriers are struggling with a way to be profitable after over 75 years of practice and unions, you aren't so naive to think that NJ and 1108 have figured it all out in 3 do you? If so, it confirms that YOU DON'T GET IT! Our math is in severe disagreement. 3 years does not equal 44, which is how long Execjet has been around, or 22 years which is when our "business" started it's current course.

.....

 

[fischman]

No, this isn't just about 1108, they are a union that is attempting to take over the entire industry. 1108 has had how many successful aviation CBAs?

(Oh, and successful is one that was negotiated, implemented, approved by the membership and ran it's full course from beginning to end without concessions or renegotiations, allowed the company to be profitable and expand without layoffs or furloughs to ANY company employee)

1108 has a long way to go and is failing miserably at FLOPS.

1108 is batting 1.000 according to your definition. I think it might be time to open your eyes, and get with the times old man...

 

[B19 Flyer]

1108 is batting 1.000 according to your definition. I think it might be time to open your eyes, and get with the times old man...

Have they run a contract all the way to the end without renegotiation midway through it? And I know the company hasn't been profitable all the way through the process. he season isn't over yet...

 

[B19 Flyer]

First off, I appreciate your response. I don't agree with a bit of it, but this is the FIRST TIME IN MONTHS you actually came up with responses to comments or questions. You usually only spit out the same rhetoric that has nothing to do with the questions asked.

.....

Let me see if I understand you properly.

You are telling me that the union mission has not changed.

This means that:

You are telling me that your union has negotiated for you a salary of $118,000 a year (that is more than double the average annual income, in a career that you have personally chosen (and have the choice of working anyplace that you want), with federal regulations that has heavy government oversight of safety, limits to the amount of hours you can fly in a day, a week and a year…

With:

A steel worker or coal miner in 1935 that did not have federal regulations or oversight, did not have hourly limitations to the amount of work he was required to do, and most importantly, did not have a choice of where to work due to geographical or educational limitations of the era.

The unions in 1935 protected workers because workers had no other option. You have options.

Their version of not having food for the table was a little different in those days. It meant, NO FOOD or money to buy it with.

Their work week was measured with 3 digits(100 hours), 7 days a week, 365 a year without regulation.

Your work week has seven days on and seven days off.

To state that the mission of unions to protect is not the same. Unions have gone from giving workers basic rights to placing a strangle hold on companies by demanding wages, work rules and benefits that far exceed the norm for the average American. It will happen using methods that may cripple or even bankrupt a company and all of the other employees within it, and many times at the expense of lower seniority pilots that the CBA is designed to “Protect.”

If, what you say is true… that a union is there to protect…

Please tell me why, when times get tough, the union takes the available “bucket” of money and instead of dividing it in a way that will prevent layoffs, keeps the payroll high for the upper seniority pilots and allow the others to be furloughed.

True “Protection” would be to take that same “bucket of money” and divide it in such a way that everybody stayed employed, instead of sacrificing the bottom third of their dues paying members.

Yes, the union mission has changed, the old mission was to help everybody make a livable wage within the American way of life.

The new methodology is to take every last penny the company has extra so it can’t grow, and negotiate backwards only when the last gasps of a company are heard.

 

[Galaxy]

Mr B19

Here you go again with the same ole crap. I usually refrain from calling anyone names. However, you sir really are the BIGGEST MORON ever. If you can not see that the company, pilots, union, and owners are happy with the current contract. Then you are either SLOW or STUPID. In fact NJ can't seem to get enough pilots and planes to feed the need.
Stop talking about steel workers-they are on a different board.
NJA is happy-case closed.
FLOPS pilots will be happy when they have a contract or the doors are locked forever.
You will fade away like the other TOOLS when an outcome has been reached.

 

[fischman]

B19,

So you believe that $50,000 a year is a respectable wage for being away from our families for 7 days at a time?

Do you believe that $50,000 a year is worth missing my son's first steps?

If you were a passenger, would you want to have a pilot that was worried about how he was going to put a roof over his children's head, food on their plate, college, or even retirement? Or would you want a pilot who is well compensated and has his full attention on the work at hand, knowing his family is well taken care of?

I don't care what you say, you have a low opinion of us (pilots). Your last post is a demonstration of this. I mean this sincerly, you need to spend some time with the pilots at FLOPS. Ask them if they can pay their bills, feel good about their jobs, are proud of their company, are worried about the future, etc... The misery being caused is not of the union. It is management.


Shame on you have not being able to see what we do for people like you.

 

[B19 Flyer]

So you believe that $50,000 a year is a respectable wage for being away from our families for 7 days at a time?

Do you believe that $50,000 a year is worth missing my son's first steps?

If you were a passenger, would you want to have a pilot that was worried about how he was going to put a roof over his children's head, food on their plate, college, or even retirement? Or would you want a pilot who is well compensated and has his full attention on the work at hand, knowing his family is well taken care of?

I don't care what you say, you have a low opinion of us (pilots). Your last post is a demonstration of this. I mean this sincerly, you need to spend some time with the pilots at FLOPS. Ask them if they can pay their bills, feel good about their jobs, are proud of their company, are worried about the future, etc... The misery being caused is not of the union. It is management.


Shame on you have not being able to see what we do for people like you.

No, the last post was specifically about the mission of unions not the state of pilots. Besides, the average pilot here buries what corporate guys make without the hassle of a contract.

Everything you mentioned above our pilots get at my current employer without a union.

The specific point was, in 1935 a union was necessary to achieve an acceptable way of life because there were no other options.

You don't want an acceptable way of life. You became a pilot and your union is telling your employer that an acceptable way of life is more than double the american standard income at any cost including that of shutting down the company.

The union mission has changed from protecting employees and giving an "acceptable" standard of living to giving people with options unlimited power to take from the company what they THINK they are worth by forceful methods.

What is fair is fair, but the union mission has changed from helping everybody to helping a select few and screwing everybody else.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Shame on you have not being able to see what we do for people like you.

And there is one fact that I know, you as a pilot have never done a thing for me, but me as a manager that has worked on many high profile work groups with the Feds in DC have helped to make many positive changes for you.

But, as a pilot who fears becoming management , you will never have an opportunity to help the industry by only flying the line. Step up to the plate, where the real action is...