FLOPS Union Busting

[BrnJetFuel]

Texasskicker,

So since we are "jackasses" and you seem to have all the answers to everything and nobody else knows anything and if they dare disagree with you they will get attacked, I'm going to help you out. Which way did you come in?

Go. Get the hell out and stay out. We don't want you here. Clear enough?

UAL78

We now return you to your regularly scheduled posts

YEAHHHH! (Loud whistling sound!!!) Finally.

Unfortunately, he'll be back with even more dung on his cow girl boots and sportin' a new name. That's why people like him live in TX, they need lot's of room for their heads.


:beer:

 

[AceCrackshot]

Can someone say IP ban?

Thanks UAL78

 

[Spackler]

I’m glad texass is gone too-at least until he comes back as someone else anyway…but...
Does anyone feel like getting back to the subject of this threads title?
Anyone…anyone…Bueller?

 

[netjetwife]

I'm happy to comply with that request--

http://www.yourcompanyyouroptions.com/

From the latest AIN Alerts:

Flight Options Fights Union Drive
Since the International Brotherhood of Teamsters Local 1108 filed an application letter to the National Mediation Board (NMB) for representation of the 830 Flight Options pilots earlier this month, the fractional provider has increased efforts to thwart the union drive. It has set up a Web site to provide information to the pilot workforce about unions and, according to NMB filings, hired union-busting law firm Ford & Harrison. NMB rules prohibit Flight Options from interfering in the union election process, so the site’s content has been crafted so as to not portray an anti-union stance. However, it does explain how not to vote in the expected Flight Options union election, which would be conducted using a telephone electronic voting system. In a recent recorded message to the pilots, Flight Options COO and acting CEO S. Michael Scheeringa said, “While we believe in the pilots’ rights to make their own decisions regarding representation, we do not feel that it’s in the best interest to vote for Teamster representation.” Flight Options declined to comment. [URL="http://www.ainalerts.com/ainalerts/up_arrow.gif"]http://www.ainalerts.com/ainalerts/up_arrow.gif[/URL]

Man oh man, does that sure look familiar. Guess it worked so well for Raytheon the first time they figured they would give it a shot again.

If there are any fence sitters (and I don't see how their could be) think long and hard before the election.

Good luck to you all.

Jetsi

Adding my thoughts on the subject and my Best Wishes for your success! NJW

U NFAIR!
N OT RIGHT!
I HATE IT ALL!!
O UTSIDERS PAID,
N EVER EVEN CARING

B ETTING ON FAILURE,
U NDER-HANDED TACTICS
S EEN AS A NORMAL ROUTINE
T EARING DOWN YOUR EFFORTS
I NSTILLING FEAR AND SOWING DOUBT
G ATHER THOSE VOTES--FIGHT 'EM FLT OPS

 

[Phoenix]

Union Representation…..Much Easier To Get Rid OF Than To Get

Union Representation…..Much Easier To Get Rid OF Than To Get

There have been a number of posts in the vein of “vote in haste, repent at leisure”, cautioning us to be careful with our vote, lest we open the door to the Teamsters, then find it impossible to ask them to leave, should we decide that they are not all we had hoped.

With that thought in mind, a recent communication from our Company included a web link to www.unionfacts.com. On that website is a great deal of information about unions in general. Three useful pieces of information in particular are found on the link entitled “Union Decertification”. Keep in mind that, according to what we have been told, the Teamsters organization required a minimum of 65% of our pilots to request representation before they would agree to petition the NMB on our behalf; but according to the information presented on UnionFacts:

“If at least 30 percent of the workers in the bargaining unit sign the petition, then it must be sent to the NLRB's closest regional office, along with a cover sheet, NLRB Form 502. Once the petitions have been received and validated, the NLRB will set a date for the decertification election, usually about 60 days in the future.”

So even though the Teamsters required almost 2/3 of the pilot force to ask for representation before they would even agree to petition the NMB; less than half that numberare required to petition for de-certification.

Further, should we actually petition for decertification:

“When the vote is held, if a majority of the workers who participate favor decertifying the union, or if the vote results in a tie, then the NLRB will officially remove the union's recognition as the bargaining representative of the workers.”

This means that even though our current vote to decide representation must carry by 50% + 1 vote in order for the Teamsters to be certified as our representative; according to the information posted on UnionFacts, even a simple 50-50 tie is sufficient for de-certification.

Even further:

“Hundreds of polls are held each year to end representation by poor union leadership.

In 2004, workers successfully decertified poor representation in 65 percent of decertification elections, according to cases closed by the NLRB.”

It would appear, then, that de-certification is not only much easier than some would have us believe; but successfully accomplished much more often than one would have imagined. This new information should allay the fears of many who have voiced concerns in this regard.

Our concern should not be about whether we can get rid of the IBT if we are not satisfied; but rather: do we want to pass on the opportunity we currently have to decertify the total and abusive control which management presently exercises? Giving control back to the company, via union decertification, clearly would be much easier than our current effort to take control of our future, through representation and a contract.


Educate yourself: VOTE SMART

Respectfully,

FOOC IBT 1108
Pilots4Pilots

http://www.ibt1108.org/options/forum

 

[netjetwife]

What about these sayings---

The Tide Has Turned

Strike While The Iron Is Hot!

There's No Time Like The Present!

To those unsure about 1108: The longer you wait the more ground your families lose--- missed opportunities, decreased savings, and dreams put on hold---but it doesn't have to be that way. NJ families now have a brighter future because we stood together and demanded what the pilots have earned and our families deserved. Other frac families are just as deserving. Please don't let this opportunity to change your lives pass you by.

Making plans for the future,
Netjetwife

 

[SeaSpray]

I can understand FLOPS pilots wanting to better their compensation and quality of life. What I don't understand is why they would want anything to do with the International Brotherhood of Teamsters who have a history of involvment with organized crime, corrupt leadership, forcing companies out of business, and prosecution under the RICO Act.

Non-profit organizations like the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association make a lot more sense than the very much for profit Teamsters. Why don't you form your own association as other pilot groups have done?

Virtually all Teamster's presidents have been indicted or gone to prison: Ron Carey, Jackie Pressor, Roy Williams, Frank Fitzsimmons, Jimmie Hoffa, Daniel Tobin, David Beck, and Farrell Dobbs.

James P. Hoffa has found a new way to raid the union coffers (Daddy did the Pension Fund), according to the Chicago Tribune:

"In the five years since Hoffa took over the union's leadership, the overall compensation for Teamsters officials earning $100,000 a year or more has grown by 125 percent...

The number of Teamsters officials earning $100,000 or more yearly has grown by 66 percent during that period..."


SS

 

[Tommy Boy]

Well seaspray if you could front us about a million in cash we would be happy to start our own inhouse union. We only have about 821 pilots and the number keeps decreasing rapidly. And we are all underpaid. That does not leave us much working capital to fight the company for a contract who by the way has a history of spending millions to keep out unions. I'm sure they are paying ford and harrison thousands of dollars a day to try and keep one out now.

With that in mind and with NetJets starting the 1108 local which is soley run by fractional pilots, and they got a pretty good contract, I don't think it's too difficult to see why we went with them. They have been helping us quite a bit, financially as well as with their time and sweat. And if we can get others to join 1108 as well that will make for a pretty stong voice in the fractional industry.

As far as the teamsters stealing money...they only get about 25 percent of our dues, the rest stay at the local. And 25 percent of crap is just that, crap. They will be spending way more on us helping us negotiate a contract than we will be giving them back for several years. So I think it's a pretty good deal.

 

[netjetwife]

Why Teamsters? Laying aside the fact that Flt Ops pilots are going to be very much in control of their fate by joining a Local comprised only of frac pilots and ran by frac pilots, your question can be answered. Starting with the suggestion of forming an employee organization like that at SWA. That is only possible because the pilots are treated with respect by SWA management, who pays them like the professionals they are. Although equally deserving, the Flt Ops pilots don't seem to have that relationship at their company. When you're being listened to it isn't necessary to raise your voice and wave your arms. It looks like the Flt Ops pilots have to do both and that requires money--dues. When you compare Teamsters to a union like ALPA, the frac pilots get a better deal. A much smaller portion of the collected dues is sent to national than at other unions. 1108 was satisfied with the return on their dues--at the Local level and with help/advice received from Teamsters. I witnessed some of that help, myself, at Omaha where the NJ pilots kicked off their picketing campaign.

It is obvious that the anti-union side has a weak argument against frac pilots joining 1108. You don't argue the case on its own merits, like 1108's excellent track record, and you make comparisons that don't apply, like SWA. You turn a deaf ear to all the NJ pilots who have told you that they have enjoyed a great return on their union investment. Would you have us believe that 2000 plus pilots made a bad decision to form their own Local and that the contract they won wasn't worth fighting for? That is the group that Options pilots will be joining. Debate the issue, if you must, but at least keep it fair.

 

[SeaSpray]

Deleted

 

[SeaSpray]

Why Teamsters? Laying aside the fact that Flt Ops pilots are going to be very much in control of their fate by joining a Local comprised only of frac pilots and ran by frac pilots, your question can be answered. Starting with the suggestion of forming an employee organization like that at SWA. That is only possible because the pilots are treated with respect by SWA management, who pays them like the professionals they are. Although equally deserving, the Flt Ops pilots don't seem to have that relationship at their company. When you're being listened to it isn't necessary to raise your voice and wave your arms. It looks like the Flt Ops pilots have to do both and that requires money--dues. When you compare Teamsters to a union like ALPA, the frac pilots get a better deal. A much smaller portion of the collected dues is sent to national than at other unions. 1108 was satisfied with the return on their dues--at the Local level and with help/advice received from Teamsters. I witnessed some of that help, myself, at Omaha where the NJ pilots kicked off their picketing campaign.

It is obvious that the anti-union side has a weak argument against frac pilots joining 1108. You don't argue the case on its own merits, like 1108's excellent track record, and you make comparisons that don't apply, like SWA. You turn a deaf ear to all the NJ pilots who have told you that they have enjoyed a great return on their union investment. Would you have us believe that 2000 plus pilots made a bad decision to form their own Local and that the contract they won wasn't worth fighting for? That is the group that Options pilots will be joining. Debate the issue, if you must, but at least keep it fair.

Of course I'm arguing the case on it's merits. My post was about demeaning yourself through association. One can always take the high road by not associating yourself with a demonstrated and proven criminal activity like the Teamsters. I notice that you wisely didn't attempt to challenge the irrefutable facts in my post which are a matter of public record.

For some it would be a character and ethical issue. I would think it would be really tough for your husband, a former military officer, to sacrifice his integrity for personal gain. What I hear you saying is that it doesn't matter what they are, as long as we get ours, it's O.K.

If you really want to speak the truth, you would confess that NJA pilots really wanted to form their own union in October 2004, but that the Teamsters had you so tied up contractually, that all you could do is form a new local. If you are really an ethical person and didn't know this, check the facts.

SS

 

[yosemite]

Of course I'm arguing the case on it's merits.

No, not really... what you are arguing is 50 year old story. The IBT of today is an organization way seperated from it's past.

For some it would be a character and ethical issue. I would think it would be really tough for your husband, a former military officer, to sacrifice his integrity for personal gain.

Hmm... so you are saying that because he or you are ex-military, that somehow you have a better personal integrity than a civilian only pilot?

If you really want to speak the truth, you would confess that NJA pilots really wanted to form their own union in October 2004, but that the Teamsters had you so tied up contractually, that all you could do is form a new local. If you are really an ethical person and didn't know this, check the facts.

That one is really funny. I was there; I participated in the discussions. I have the documents and e-mails saved as a historical reference. It ONLY takes 35% of a union membership to de-certify union representation. We could have done that at any time, and it was made more than clear to the IBT National Leadership that we would de-certify if our request to withdraw from Local 284 was not honored. There were no "contracts" in any form which kept us financially or otherwise obligated to the Teamsters. However, the Strong Union leadership asked the members to give them the chance to get the new local going and we did. We NEVER wanted to drop Teamster affiliation, EVER. The value of 1.4 million members supporting us, both financially and with their physical presence, in our fight was too strong of an advantage to disregard.

Would we have pulled out if the Teamsters National not come through? You betcha... Why didn't we? Because the Teamsters National recognized the value of a true class and craft local for Fractional Aviation and supported it fully once the true facts became known.

Those, SeaSpray, ARE the facts.

 

[netjetwife]

This one's really a stretch---demeaning yourself through association? Local 1108 is responsible for no one's actions but their own. Fairness demands we give credit where credit is due, and assign blame only where it has been earned.

Talk about grasping at straws---sacrifice his integrity for personal gain. By volunteering for 1108?! I've watched my husband perform his duties for 1108 with the same loyalty, dedication and discretion that he exhibited in his AF career. The NJ pilot group has watched the leadership of 1108 sacrifice personal gain for the good of the union. My husband is one of those making less than he could if he weren't volunteering right now. Suffice it to say, his integrity is as high as ever, even if his paycheck isn't.

The facts you speak of may be a matter of public record, but they don't interest me. When I think of the union, I think of the NJ pilots--of 1108. I think of the other frac pilots that may soon be joining 1108. I look at the way 1108 has changed the lives of the NJ pilots and their families. I consider the potential that 1108 can do the same thing for other frac pilots and their families. That's the "record" that matters to me.

If you have heard anything else, SS, it didn't come from my posts. I suggest that it is your own voice trying to drown out my message of confidence in 1108 and hope for the other frac families.

 

[SeaSpray]

No, not really... what you are arguing is 50 year old story. The IBT of today is an organization way seperated from it's past.

Actually, the Teamster's criminal history goes back more than 50 years, but the "Chicago Tribune" article about present Teamster's General President James Hoffa is current.

Ron Carey, who preceded Hoffa as president was indicted 7 Feb 2001.

Here's a brief history of the last 20 years:

1985 13 October - Teamster's President Roy Williams agrees to cooperate with the federal investigation of the relationship between organized crime and the union in exchange for a 45-day delay of his date for reporting to prison. Two weeks later Williams gives spectacular testimony confirming that the mafia controlled the Teamster leadership.


1986 Mid-May - Teamster's President Jackie Presser indicted on charges ranging from racketeering to embezzling $700,000 in a ghost employee scam. Released on $50,000 bond and continues as general president.


1986 November - Anthony 'Fat Tony' Salerno, convicted boss of the Genovese crime family, and his associates Milton Rockman, John 'Peanuts' Tronolone and Vincent Cararo (don't you just love the names?) were charged with arranging the election of Jackie Presser to the office of general president of the Teamsters Union, and with influencing Presser's decisions about union business and about management of pension and welfare funds.


1986 November - The Department of Justice indicated that it would file a civil suit against the Teamsters under the Racheteer-Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act to remove the General Executive Board of the IBT.


1988 May 4 - Jackie Presser takes leave of absence and Weldon Mathis, in accordance with the union's constitution, becomes acting general president. Because of poor health, Presser never comes to trial on the charges of labor racketeering, and he dies in July 1988 of a heart attack during surgery.


1989 March 13 - U.S. Department of Justice and the Teamsters Union reach agreement to settle RICO suit. The Wall Street Journal on March 14, 1989 reported the agreement, "influenced by the concerns and platform...of the Teamsters for a Democratic Union" provided for the direct election of all convention delegates and the union's international officers in 1991.


1991 - Ron Carey elected by Teamsters rank and file as general president.


1996 - Ron Carey re-elected general president.

1997 November - Election overturned. Ron Carey barred from running for re-election for allegations of campaign funding improprieties.

1999 - James Hoffa becomes general president.

Hmm... so you are saying that because he or you are ex-military, that somehow you have a better personal integrity than a civilian only pilot?

Can't comment on this, the only commercial civilian flying I've done was at COS when I was a college student. But ask NetJetsWife's husband about this one and he will tell you that he was rated on his integrity on his ER and that the Air Force doesn't tolerate integrity flaws in leaders who might be called on to order men and women to their death. In 1999 General Hugh Shelton, then Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, relieved General Wesley Clark as SHAPE Commander over issues of "integrity and character", so nobody gets a bye.

That one is really funny. I was there; I participated in the discussions. I have the documents and e-mails saved as a historical reference. It ONLY takes 35% of a union membership to de-certify union representation...There were no "contracts" in any form which kept us financially or otherwise obligated to the Teamsters...

My source says that it would have been financially prohibitive to sever your ties with the Teamsters in 2004.

In any event, my original post concerned not why you are in bed with the Teamsters, but why FLOPS would choose them when they have the opportunity to start their own organization or align themselves with a group that doesn't have such a colorful history.

Uh-oh, gotta go. There's a big guy with a badly broken nose and a baseball bat at my quarters door yelling that he wants to talk to me about my big, fat mouth!

SS

 

[netjetwife]

I should think it's obvious. Options pilots are more interested in what happened in the fractional industry in the past year than in the history of a huge organization that includes many labor groups. Put it this way---concerned citizens don't refuse to become involved in community govt because of scandals at the national level. Open-minded people judge others on their own merits, and certainly don't hold over a million workers responsible for the actions of a few. I think frac pilots are more interested in the help 1108 can give them than they are in acting on biased opinions they don't share with the anti-union pilots among them. They are basing their votes on 1108's record of improving the lives of the NJ pilots and their families, which is the right thing to do. By voting for 1108, they are choosing to stand with other pilots who are changing the industry and demanding professional compensation and treatment for all frac pilots.

 

[realityman]

SS, please take the time to check your facts, and above all else, LISTEN to what other people actually involved with this are saying. The answers to your questions are already here!
1)Starting an in-house union at NJA was looked at. It turned out that it would be prohibitively expensive to do so. Even with 2000 pilots chipping in dues. So how are the FLOPS pilots supposed to come up with that dough? Truly good and effective lawyers are very pricey. By remaining with Teamsters we had more than just our dues to draw upon, plus an already established network of lawyers to use, as well as other aviation locals within Teamsters (like the one at Airborne) to advise and guide us.

2)The pilots would have liked to get away from Local 284 back in 2004, just as you say, but the reasons we didn't aren't what you are putting forth. Quite simply, we had very ineffective leadership (Our previous MEC) who wouldn't stand up to a fat lady in a marathon. As soon as our new leadership was elected, we broke away and formed our own local, 1108, in an almost unheard of short period of time WITH the Teamsters National backing us to do so.

3)Corruption in the Teamsters? Yeah, so what? There's corruption everywhere. Government (national and local), in corporations, schools, aviation, and yes, even in the military. That doesn't mean we can't be a moral and ethical side of a union that may be tarnished in certain areas. Jimmy Hoffa dosn't seem to involve himself much with our little branch of the Teamsters, except when we needed to filter out the corruption of our old Local 284.

Ultimately, it's up to the FLOPS pilots to decide how they want to handle this. So far, our local 1108's record is pretty good at getting the desired results. Based on those facts, they are doing the right thing.

 

[netjetwife]

Excellent post, Realityman!

There you have it. A realistic view of the situation. One that is exactly as I remember it, as well. The pros and cons were weighed by the NJ pilots who made the smart decision. The results speak for themselves, as did all those cards turned in by Flt Ops pilots who are ready to stand up to corporate greed and disrespect for their profession.

Best of luck to you all,
Netjetwife

 

[netjetwife]

Do you suppose the union-busting firm hired by Options has seen the coverage the pilots got in the Teamsters Airline Journal? News of the pilots' union drive is spreading faster and further than their efforts to squash it. What a waste of money! That just confirms that it isn't a matter of not being able to afford industry wages. The company has the money; they just choose to spend it on other things, obviously.

To the Flt Ops pilots sitting on the fence--you should find a copy of this journal and take a look on page 5. It's too easy to think of your situation as only a personal matter between the pilots and the company. In truth, your battle is part of a much bigger picture that has repercussions throughout the industry. Seeing it in black and white has a way of bringing that point home. It's not just your career future at stake, those of your fellow Ops pilots, and the financial well being of all your families that is being decided by your vote. Your decisions as pilots of the "second-largest fractional carrier" will have an impact on the rest of the industry. There's a lot of other pilots and their families whose future will be affected by your vote. Please don't let them down. Many in the aviation community are watching and waiting to see the outcome. I just received that proof in the mail. There is more support for your cause than perhaps you realize.

Just one of many cheering you on,
Netjetwife


ALL PROFESSIONAL PILOTS DESERVE A PROFESSIONAL CONTRACT

1108--CHANGING THE FRACTIONAL INDUSTRY, ONE COMPANY AT A TIME

 

[choppengruven]

netjetwife

Thank you for taking the time to educate yourself on whats happening with our drive. The 1108 will be 800 pilots stronger come March 2nd.

 

[dime line]

I can't wait!!!! 10 more days