FLOPS Union Busting

[Cavpilot]

What, in your opinion, are the differences between Flops and NJA crews? I'm just curious as to what your reasoning is.

First off, let me state that I wish the Flops guys and gals all of the best. That being said. I'll tell you a difference.

Do you remember about 3-4- years ago when just about every Flops pilot that you ran into would say something like " Hey, when are you NetJets guys going to get your contract done? I need a raise. Har, har, har!" When I would respond by telling them to get their own union, the normal response was "we don't need a union here! KR promised us we will always be the highest paid."
So because of the arrogance and lack of understanding while we were busy with our struggle and the fact that most of them willingly drank kool-aid from a fire hose, I think our pilot groups are vastly different.

 

[choppengruven]

But not so different anymore. In fact come March 2nd we will be sailng in the same ship. I cannot wait to join up with NJ in the 1008 and turn a whole industry from sliding into the regional airline mentality.


Pilots 4 pilots

 

[dime line]

"" Hey, when are you NetJets guys going to get your contract done? I need a raise. Har, har, har!" ""

Yes I was one of those guys!!

""the normal response was "we don't need a union here! KR promised us we will always be the highest paid.""

The pilots that you talk of were not Raytheon Travel Air pilots, about 430 pilots at the merger. I can guarentee that was not the mind set of at least 70% of them

 

[Wyatt]

First off, let me state that I wish the Flops guys and gals all of the best. That being said. I'll tell you a difference.

Do you remember about 3-4- years ago when just about every Flops pilot that you ran into would say something like " Hey, when are you NetJets guys going to get your contract done? I need a raise. Har, har, har!" When I would respond by telling them to get their own union, the normal response was "we don't need a union here! KR promised us we will always be the highest paid."
So because of the arrogance and lack of understanding while we were busy with our struggle and the fact that most of them willingly drank kool-aid from a fire hose, I think our pilot groups are vastly different.

"just about every" but not all.

Guys who came over from RTA could see the differences immediately and saw from their first meeting with KR that he was a flim-flam man. Im not trying to be divisive here. We are all one group, in the same boat, and working toward the same goal. But there are still KR "cultists" out there that believe his second coming would fix our problems and that Raytheon is the enemy. Got news for ya, they were in bed together and neither gave a damn about us.

Talk is cheap. We are ready for action.

VOTE YES 1108

 

[Publishers]

Ironman --Geez I was thinking more along the lines that they liquidate the business if they cannot find a buyer. An existing contract may in effect make sale even more difficult. None of this is a reflection on you guys at all or whatever it is that you make.
The question is should Raytheon be in this business at all??? Frankly to a mnufacturer, this is a real pain in the ass business.

 

[netjetwife]

Really NJA crews and Flops's crew are very much alike..... In the regard that we are both pilots, yes. Other then that...... Well I would say there is big difference between us.

Allow me to point out a few more similarities to you, RNObased: Both companies are in the fractional industry. Both are ran by managers that lack respect for the contribution of the pilots that are the backbone of the company. The Options pilots are facing the same problems that the NJ pilots struggled to overcome--being underpaid/overworked. The Options families face the same questions that the NJ families had to resolve. Is it worth it? Can this be a job that is a career move worth keeping? Have we had enough of the status quo and are we willing to stand up for our rights?

I do agree that there is a big difference, however. The Options pilots lack the security and representation that come with a union which is dedicated to gaining the pilots a good/fair contract. Hopefully, that will be changing in the near future and then the two groups will have even more in common.

Watching the gap close,
Netjetwife

 

[gunfyter]

Ironman --Geez I was thinking more along the lines that they liquidate the business if they cannot find a buyer. An existing contract may in effect make sale even more difficult. None of this is a reflection on you guys at all or whatever it is that you make.
The question is should Raytheon be in this business at all??? Frankly to a mnufacturer, this is a real pain in the ass business.

As long as NetJets sells their planes... they might not need to be in this business.

But can they trust NJ not to cancel orders?

Look at history...

NJ let it be known they did not like its suppliers competing with them.

Raytheon sells off RTA.

Forced to take it back.

Makes billion dollar deals with NJA.

I think you may be right ... they do not want to be in a business competing with a very large customer that does not appreciate the manufacturer competing with it.

 

[FAcFriend]

just a quick q-
how involved is the national with the 1108 going after flops? Is it true that in the end 1108 might not have the money or national backing to represent flops?
I havent heard from teamsters national on this- has anyone else?
i was always surprised that they were not more involved in the NJA thing-

 

[Hawkered]

Facfriend


Surely you jest? The Teamsters are very happy to take up another 850 memberships to add to their list. The union movement has lots of money right now, due to the resurgence of unionism with corporate greed/governance and the exporting of jobs.

 

[netjetwife]

1108 was satisfied with the help they received from the national organization. It was their wish to handle their affairs on their own. Who better understands the situation faced by NJA pilots, than said pilots? That is the appeal of 1108. Local autonomy backed by a big-name union--the best of both worlds. Give the Options pilots due credit. They will be able to pay their way with dues collected from their own membership. They will be led by reps from within their ranks. The Options group will have the experience of 1108 to guide them as they address the issues that concern them. Strong Unions are quite capable of solving their own problems. A distant national organization cannot provide the needed sense of conviction and determination that compels a group to stand up for itself. When they are ready to deliver their message, the Options group will have the presentation help they need.

Best of luck to the Options pilots and their families,
Netjetwife

 

[Semore Butts]

OK Texas

I said;
(I don't personally attack anyone verbally, (that I recall anyway, except that one low life muth^*&^(*&^ ahole))

OK, I guess you make 2...

 

[jackotron]

Ooooh, you are SO powerful Honkered! I'm getting a very special feeling. I think you really do know. I might be on the wrong side of fifty, but history? Time will tell.

I'll get back to you on that one. Now, dont you have some triangles with exclamation points to click on you big baby?

Texasskicker,

You're a baby. Don't jump down someone's throat because they have an opinion or something to say. You brought most of this on yourself.

 

[Semore Butts]

Oh yeah, I forgot

Oh yeah, I forgot.

Got 2 confirmed yes votes from an Options crew yesterday while I was flying for the Army.

Hope to see more, I head out with my Netjets uniform on tomorrow.

All the Options crews I have met have been good people. (so are the CS and NJI crews I have met)

I don't think we need to remind them about what was said regarding getting a raise on our behalf.

We took the "higher road" and they have seen the light.

I think I speak for most of my brothers and sisters when I say, "Welcome Aboard".

 

[Texasskicker]

Say what boy?

Texasskicker,

You're a baby. Don't jump down someone's throat because they have an opinion or something to say. You brought most of this on yourself.

Wait, Jack. You are a moderator and you are perpetuating this petty argument? I called into question his motivation and his credibility. Given the long history of bickering, I wrongly jumped at the opportunity to needle him.

Now YOU are chiding me? Did you graduate from the idiot school of moderation, or are you just academically challenged?

Jackass.

 

[Safetycheck]

Wooo

Wait, Jack. You are a moderator and you are perpetuating this petty argument? I called into question his motivation and his credibility. Given the long history of bickering, I wrongly jumped at the opportunity to needle him.

Now YOU are chiding me? Did you graduate from the idiot school of moderation, or are you just academically challenged?

Jackass.

Stand by for some banning action here boys.

That one is gonna hurt!

 

[RVSM]

**Amended comment due to new information**
Go union it will improve QOL greatly.

 

[netjetwife]

NJ pilots have mentioned that the amount of money they were awarded in grievance settlements far surpassed their dues last year. I said that my husband got over $1000. I'm sorry to have given false information --even though it wasn't intentional. I'd like to set the record straight. The actual amount was over $2,500. Needless to say, the pilots are well pleased with what they get in return for their dues. Consider it a form of insurance, if it makes you feel better, but anyway you look at it, it's a good investment whose dividends are unquestioned among the NJ pilots--and those of other frac pilots, considering the number of cards that have been turned in since the NJ pilots won their new contract.

It's interesting--and so transparent--how those against unions toss around the name "Teamsters", but the pilots (and spouses) who follow the situation closely speak of 1108. AIN also knows where credit is due. Check out this month's article about the Options pilots' efforts to join 1108. Congratulations on the publicity! I remember how buoyed the NJ group was to see our fight reported in AIN. It's a tangible sign of progress--one of those markers that lets you know you're on the right path. Hang in there! NJW

 

[DO-82 driver]

The very first day of 2006 was an Extended day for me as well as Holiday pay.....this one day alone covers my Union due for the next 26 months......

I don't want to hear anyone cry about Union dues.

Did I mention I also don't have to pay into my medical paln.....that's got to be worth at least 500/month. Other Frac guys are paying at least 160/month.

 

[Publishers]

Hawkered -- You must be smelling the aircraft glue when you make a statement that unionism is on some high right now. Their one big entrenchment just took a rather major hit in case you missed the news.

 

[Hawkered]

Publishers,

You are correct about layoffs and redundancies, but what you seem to be missing is that ABX, Netjets, Options and Flexjet have seen a major shift back towards traditional bargaining efforts.

To blame unionism for the failure of poor management, is to blame America for getting involved in World War II!

The American workforce, outside of the basic service industry is not shrinking at all, despite dire warnings on CNN. We are turning into a skilled provider of new ideas requiring considerable and expensive education. One need only look at the cost of acquiring these skills to see the validity of this argument.

The problem is that the bean-counters sitting in ivory towers have no regard nor respect for the workforce, nor the value this skill level brings to the operation. Due to the fact that the workforce is so much bigger as companies get larger...the only fair way of getting representation is with a union.

I am not not neccesarily "pro" or "anti" union. I am "pro" fair treatment. If an operator gets a union on the property, it's a sign of the sins of the past.

They're getting what they deserve!

 

[netjetwife]

Good point, Hawkered!

I couldn't agree more! Publishers, there can be no question that in the fractional industry unions are experiencing an all time high in the level of interest from pilots. As that should be the focus of this forum, Hawkered's post was right on target. He is absolutely correct in saying that the interest is there because of problems pilots have encountered with management. Any workforce that seeks representation does so because their needs are not being met, and the workers have realized that their best chance to be heard and dealt with fairly is found in collective bargaining and standing together, rather than going it alone, when interacting with management. For one who likes to preach the laws of supply and demand, you fail to recognize that those same principals apply to unions. They are only in existence where a demand for their service is required.

 

[Publishers]

I would make the point that had Netjets ever been formed as a fractional, it is less likely that they would even have a union. The example above even puts ABX as an example when it has absolutely no bearing on the fractional business.
EJA became a union company more from its early realtionship with the railroad than anything to do with today.
On the bigger picture, unions have taken it on the chin and continue to lose membership and take it on the chin. Not my opinion, any kind of research should point that out.
As talked about on the other threads, it remains to be seen how many of these companies in the pure fractional business can survive. Netjets finally achieving a contract is little proof of much other than it took them forever.

 

[Diesel]

publisher- someone who talks but never really accomplished.

 

[BrnJetFuel]

unions have taken it on the chin and continue to lose membership and take it on the chin.

Pilot Unions are unlike any other. We are white collared professionals who typically are conservative. Yes, while unions in general are on the down, you're about to witness the growing trend in fractionals and aviation in general.



:beer:

 

[Safetycheck]

Dream

Pilot Unions are unlike any other. We are white collared professionals who typically are conservative. Yes, while unions in general are on the down, you're about to witness the growing trend in fractionals and aviation in general.



:beer:

Dream on BJ.

 

[netjetwife]

1108 certainly IS the beginning of a new union trend in the fractional industry. It is a brand new local composed only of NJ pilots who had previously been sharing representation with other transportation workers. The pilots of other frac companies have shown interest in joining 1108. When that happens (and the process is already under way) BJF's prediction, and 1108's stated goal, will become a reality.

VISIONARY LEADERS ARE THOSE NOT AFRAID TO DREAM

A THOUGHT OUT PLAN TURNS THAT DREAM INTO A GOAL

HARD WORK THEN TRANSFORMS THE GOAL INTO REALITY

Watching it all happen,
Netjetwife

 

[BrnJetFuel]

Dream on BJ.

No dreaming necessary. But you keep on living in denial, seem's you're quite comfortable there. Expect to be lonely soon.

 

[choppengruven]

Dream on BJ.

I smell a cushy check Airman job here.

 

[banned username 1]

Not to hijack this thread gang, but...

Texasskicker,

I read your report to me regarding an offending post and I was quite ready to deal with it in an impartial manner- if it needed to be.

What I find is (for rightly or wrongly) mixing it up- and then insulting another moderator. Not that we should have any special treatment per se, but it seems counterproductive for someone who has remained here because of tolerance of the moderators, to insult one.

So since we are "jackasses" and you seem to have all the answers to everything and nobody else knows anything and if they dare disagree with you they will get attacked, I'm going to help you out. Which way did you come in?

Go. Get the hell out and stay out. We don't want you here. Clear enough?

UAL78

We now return you to your regularly scheduled posts

 

[netjetwife]

As one who has had an unwanted "run-in" with the ass from Texas, my thanks to the moderators who volunteer their time keeping the peace and maintaining a level of decency that allows for open debate of the issues. I agreed with the other Texans who felt he was an embarrassment to the Lone Star state. Attacking those who serve the board was not just stupid; it was spiteful. I applaud you for standing up for yourself, UAL78.
NJW