Flops TA

[ITFL]

One valid point to be made RE: the TA is that the pilots have NO authority in the hotel selection process. There is some kind of "recommendation" committee, but no rules in place as to what they can do....can they veto certain locations? Can they veto chains? Can they set a standard as to what pilots do and do not have to accept?

Seems to me that the Travel Committee (and other committees established in the TA) will have a lot power. The power that comes directly from the pilot group. The power that comes from a group working collectively toward a common goal. Remember what happened with that POS hotel in TEB a few years ago, now put along side that a committee that can directly lobby the company for change.

I think it's going to take a while for those of us who have never been a union to figure out how all of this works. But I know that our Negotiating Committee was advised by advisers who know exactly how unions work.

 

[ultrarunner]

So when do you vote ? !

 

[skyismyoffice]

By 3/31. Should be announced on 4/1.

 

[Frac Cap]

And we all know who will be the April fools if it is voted in.

 

[993_Pilot]

You're absolutely right. And does the TA do that in the short term? I think it does....

The TA does do a few things to improve our work conditions, but mostly it just locks in the conditions that we have now. That is worth something for sure, but not 6 to 7 years of substandard pay, which is what this contract would end up being before our second one is signed. That's the problem, it's not short term!

I'll be voting YES.

...and I'll be voting NO !

 

[ProFracPilot]

The TA does do a few things to improve our work conditions, but mostly it just locks in the conditions that we have now. That is worth something for sure, but not 6 to 7 years of substandard pay, which is what this contract would end up being before our second one is signed.

Please tell me, without using the words NetJets, CitationAir or FlexJet, what exactly is "standard" pay in this economic environment? 6-digit salaries at year 10 for a BJ or Phenom PIC are not realistic - at this time.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'll restate my main point: If the TA is voted down we will go another year before we see another TA. The money left on the table now is irrecoverable and can not be made up over time. Self help will not be an option. There is no precedent in fractional operations to indicate that the NMB will be sympathetic to us (their reaction will be just the opposite). We will not be offered a release. How long has it been since a 121 carrier was released to self help? (1998) This is a fact of life under the RLA, and it just sucks. But it is still a fact. At this stage of the game, without a self-help option, what would you propose going forward?

I'm not voting out of fear, but what I believe is necessity. It is time to start moving forward. Overplaying our hand on the first contract will not end well. Perhaps you're in a better financial position personally that most of us to weather another year with wage stagnation / deflation. If so, good on you. I've done what I had to do financially to make it work (I have no boat, no 2nd house, an older truck - paid off, low debt, etc). But even I have my limits.

Your points are well thought out 993, and I appreciate your position. But I'll be trying to convince people otherwise. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Still voting YES.

 

[OldCrow]

Please tell me, without using the words NetJets, CitationAir or FlexJet, what exactly is "standard" pay in this economic environment? 6-digit salaries at year 10 for a BJ or Phenom PIC are not realistic - at this time.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'll restate my main point: If the TA is voted down we will go another year before we see another TA. The money left on the table now is irrecoverable and can not be made up over time. Self help will not be an option. There is no precedent in fractional operations to indicate that the NMB will be sympathetic to us (their reaction will be just the opposite). We will not be offered a release. How long has it been since a 121 carrier was released to self help? (1998) This is a fact of life under the RLA, and it just sucks. But it is still a fact. At this stage of the game, without a self-help option, what would you propose going forward?

I'm not voting out of fear, but what I believe is necessity. It is time to start moving forward. Overplaying our hand on the first contract will not end well. Perhaps you're in a better financial position personally that most of us to weather another year with wage stagnation / deflation. If so, good on you. I've done what I had to do financially to make it work (I have no boat, no 2nd house, an older truck - paid off, low debt, etc). But even I have my limits.

Your points are well thought out 993, and I appreciate your position. But I'll be trying to convince people otherwise. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Still voting YES.

Granted. "standard" pay may be hard to define, however, the lowest of all multi-engine fractionals is not. A small cabin Cpt DOES NOT even get close to 6 figures with the NEW pay.

Avantair (7&7) 10 year Cpt=$98,000 (Piaggio)
FLOPs (7&7) 10 year Cpt=$75,160 (Beechjet or Phenom)

Not to mention if you are in the last 10% of your fleet and are forced in the 16+2 (flex) schedule.

 

[993_Pilot]

Please tell me, without using the words NetJets, CitationAir or FlexJet, what exactly is "standard" pay in this economic environment? 6-digit salaries at year 10 for a BJ or Phenom PIC are not realistic - at this time.

I call BS on this. If every other major player in the fractional market can afford it, then Flops should be able to as well, or our management should be replaced. Berkshire Hathaway, Bombardier, or Cessna aren't going to subsidize the wealthy to fly around on private jets either, they're in business to make money and they have a responsibility to their share holders.

Explain this to me: Avantair is not backed by Berkshire Hathaway, Bombardier, or Cessna, yet their pay scales are far superior to ours, and their revenues per aircraft are far lower than Flops. I believe they're a publicly held company and have everyone on a 7/7 schedule too. Explain why they can make this work. yet Flops can't. I'll be waiting for an answer.

...We will not be offered a release. How long has it been since a 121 carrier was released to self help? (1998) This is a fact of life under the RLA, and it just sucks. But it is still a fact. At this stage of the game, without a self-help option, what would you propose going forward?

How do you know this is a fact? Because someone told you so? Perhaps the IBT leadership expects to get a "NO" vote, but want's to be able to go back to the table with more leverage. If that's the case, they could never tell you so, or they would be in violation of the RLA. Perhaps they also want to get as many people as possible current on their dues again, because many of the MIGS are starting to falter due to the length of this process. We don't necessarily need to be released, we just need a stronger position from which to negotiate. A "NO" vote will do this.

...Perhaps you're in a better financial position personally that most of us to weather another year with wage stagnation / deflation. If so, good on you. I've done what I had to do financially to make it work (I have no boat, no 2nd house, an older truck - paid off, low debt, etc). But even I have my limits.

Perhaps I am better positioned than most to weather out the storm, but we all knew this was coming. If you or anyone else can't afford to live at your current salary for another year, they you're just foolish... and piss poor planning on your or anyone else's part, doesn't constitute any urgency on my part. I say we hold out for better compensation or get this thing shortened to a 2 year, option for 3 by mutual agreement. Either would be OK with me.

Your points are well thought out 993, and I appreciate your position. But I'll be trying to convince people otherwise. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Still voting YES.

I'll still be voting NO, along with lots of other that I have talked to, unless it is amended before they mail it out !

 

[ProFracPilot]

I call BS on this. If every other major player in the fractional market can afford it, then Flops should be able to as well, or our management should be replaced. Berkshire Hathaway, Bombardier, or Cessna aren't going to subsidize the wealthy to fly around on private jets either, they're in business to make money and they have a responsibility to their share holders.

Explain this to me: Avantair is not backed by Berkshire Hathaway, Bombardier, or Cessna, yet their pay scales are far superior to ours, and their revenues per aircraft are far lower than Flops. I believe they're a publicly held company and have everyone on a 7/7 schedule too. Explain why they can make this work. yet Flops can't. I'll be waiting for an answer.

You're making gross (and not well thought out) assumptions. How do YOU know what these companies can afford? You continue to ignore the fact that the large pay increases afforded to their pilots occurred during fat economic times. How can you, with any certainty, know they can still afford them? How do you know that they're not considering the balance of current losses against the cost of labor unrest should they furlough deeper or reduce compensation? To try and compare the compensation offered in our TA against the other fracs, IN THIS ECONOMIC ENVIRONMENT, is pure folly.

Further, CA and Flex certainly ARE subsidized by the manufacturers - either directly or indirectly. To believe otherwise is naive. Even NJ has been subsidized in some way by the manufacturers, so long as they kept the order book filled. I'm sure they've lost many incentives with the order cancellations, but I'm sure many incentives will remain contractually in place for a few more years.

We have a different operating model from the other fractional providers. Always have, always will. You knew this when you were hired at FlOps or (if you were RTA) when you went through indoc after the merger.

Perhaps I am better positioned than most to weather out the storm, but we all knew this was coming. If you or anyone else can't afford to live at your current salary for another year, they you're just foolish... and piss poor planning on your or anyone else's part, doesn't constitute any urgency on my part.

Ok, based on your reasoning we should be prepared for what? 10 years of negotiations? 15? In your condescending opinion, we should prepare ourselves for indefinite an indefinite negotiations. Talk about foolish...

I say we hold out for better compensation or get this thing shortened to a 2 year, option for 3 by mutual agreement. Either would be OK with me.

Ain't gonna happen.

I'll still be voting NO, along with lots of other that I have talked to, unless it is amended before they mail it out !

And I'll still be voting YES. I guess we'll know the outcome on March 31st.

 

[convair580]

I am glad to see that Mat and Ric have managed to screw every furloughed guy on the seniority list. Think about this: The pilots that are on the property right now, that are being paid as Captains but technically could not hold that seat, will receive not only 2 months of retro pay but also Captain pay and increases throughout the contract. However if a furloughed captain is brought back before Jan 2011 he will get only 10% more than he was making before furloughed then will be frozen till FO pay catches up to your current pay.(which will never happen) These are the red circled guys. And if a furloughed capt is brought after Jan 2011 guess what? Frozen at your current pay till fo pay catches up. Could this be because Rick Maluda and some of the other union reps technically could not hold a Capt position?(based on seniority). Nice to see that they have built provisions in this contract to benefit their individual needs with no regard to the many furloughed pilots that have paid their dues, sacrificed their careers, homes and family in support of the union.

 

[ProFracPilot]

We need to keep focused on that fact that Mat Slinghoff is doing an incredible job as well as management negotioning team.

I appoligize for all the grammitcal mistakes and spelling in advance.

I am glad to see that Mat and Ric have managed to screw every furloughed guy on the seniority list.

You've obviously had a change of heart.

 

[993_Pilot]

You're making gross (and not well thought out) assumptions. How do YOU know what these companies can afford? You continue to ignore the fact that the large pay increases afforded to their pilots occurred during fat economic times. How can you, with any certainty, know they can still afford them? How do you know that they're not considering the balance of current losses against the cost of labor unrest should they furlough deeper or reduce compensation? To try and compare the compensation offered in our TA against the other fracs, IN THIS ECONOMIC ENVIRONMENT, is pure folly.

Further, CA and Flex certainly ARE subsidized by the manufacturers - either directly or indirectly. To believe otherwise is naive. Even NJ has been subsidized in some way by the manufacturers, so long as they kept the order book filled. I'm sure they've lost many incentives with the order cancellations, but I'm sure many incentives will remain contractually in place for a few more years.

We have a different operating model from the other fractional providers. Always have, always will. You knew this when you were hired at FlOps or (if you were RTA) when you went through indoc after the merger.

OK, lets forget NJ, Flex, & Shares. Let's talk about Avantair. It is a profitable, publically held company with 7/7 schedules who pay their pilots better than Flops. They collect less revenue for every hour of operations than any of our aircraft. They can obviously afford it if they are profitable, therefore, Flops should be able to as well.

Ok, based on your reasoning we should be prepared for what? 10 years of negotiations? 15? In your condescending opinion, we should prepare ourselves for indefinite an indefinite negotiations. Talk about foolish...

Don't put words in my mouth. 6 to 9 months would probably be enough.

Ain't gonna happen.

And I'll still be voting YES. I guess we'll know the outcome on March 31st.

March 31st will show us how the majority of MIGS feel, and I'll live with it either way, but it won't change my feeling about this contract as it is written now. It's too long for such crappy pay. Either the duration or the compensation should be changed.

 

[fischman]

Please tell me, without using the words NetJets, CitationAir or FlexJet, what exactly is "standard" pay in this economic environment? 6-digit salaries at year 10 for a BJ or Phenom PIC are not realistic - at this time.

NetJets, CitationAir, FlexJet, AvantAir, and Flight Options ARE the industry. How are you to describe the pay of the industry without including these companies?

Do you HONESTLY think that ANY 10 year pilot doesn't deserve 6 figures??? Come on man!?! GROW A PAIR!!! Wake up!!! $100,000 for a 10 year pilot is COMPLETELY realistic.

 

[ProFracPilot]

NetJets, CitationAir, FlexJet, AvantAir, and Flight Options ARE the industry. How are you to describe the pay of the industry without including these companies?


Do you HONESTLY think that ANY 10 year pilot doesn't deserve 6 figures??? Come on man!?! GROW A PAIR!!! Wake up!!! $100,000 for a 10 year pilot is COMPLETELY realistic.

What we deserve, and what is attainable - NOW, TODAY - are two different things. Please re-read my posts. This is all about timing. NJ negotiated their amended contract at a different time in history. The others, at the risk of losing pilots to NJ, matched PAY only. Not the work rules, not the protections, not anything else contained in NJ's CBA. Just PAY.

We are reaching for our first contract. It's not perfect. None of them are. When we ratify this TA on the first vote, I believe we'll be in a stronger bargaining position when the contract becomes amendable in 3 to 5 years. Until then, we'll enjoy an increase in pay, contractual work rules and protections afforded us by the CBA.

I've made my arguments here, and we can continue to go around and around. I'll speak with my pilot brothers on the road and, if they ask my opinion on the TA, I'll share it and tell them why I'll be voting YES.

 

[fischman]

What we deserve, and what is attainable - NOW, TODAY - are two different things. Please re-read my posts. This is all about timing. NJ negotiated their amended contract at a different time in history. The others, at the risk of losing pilots to NJ, matched PAY only. Not the work rules, not the protections, not anything else contained in NJ's CBA. Just PAY.

We are reaching for our first contract. It's not perfect. None of them are. When we ratify this TA on the first vote, I believe we'll be in a stronger bargaining position when the contract becomes amendable in 3 to 5 years. Until then, we'll enjoy an increase in pay, contractual work rules and protections afforded us by the CBA.

I've made my arguments here, and we can continue to go around and around. I'll speak with my pilot brothers on the road and, if they ask my opinion on the TA, I'll share it and tell them why I'll be voting YES.

So you actually think that if FLOPS votes in this contract, this is THE BEST offer the company has to offer? Do you ALWAYS accept the first offer? If you do, I have a FANTASTIC car I can sell you at a SPECTACULAR price. It's only 13 years old with 170,000 miles on it. $25,000 is the price. Honestly, she starts every time. Perfect airport car.

I bet you a buffalo head nickel that if IBT1108 turns down this agreement, FLOPS will find more money to cough up.

I haven't read the agreement, but if the payscales I have read on this website are accurate I'd be insulted. If you value the time with your family so little, go ahead and vote yes.

 

[993_Pilot]

What we deserve, and what is attainable - NOW, TODAY - are two different things. Please re-read my posts. This is all about timing. NJ negotiated their amended contract at a different time in history. The others, at the risk of losing pilots to NJ, matched PAY only. Not the work rules, not the protections, not anything else contained in NJ's CBA. Just PAY...

That's where you're wrong, all but flex have matched the 7/7 schedule and I'm sure that they have other work rules in place as well. I know that you're going to say that except NJ, they are all "at-will" employees and everything could be taken away. Well, that's true, and one of the big reasons that I want a contract but they fact remains that they all pay their pilots much better than Flops, even in this economy. I know you keep talking about deep pockets of the manufacturers and BH as if they'll continue to subsidize the flying of the ultra rich forever, but you still haven't answered my question about why Avantair can afford it when Flops supposedly can't.

In the mean time, while you're spouting eboard's sales pitch like a lemming, I'll be on the road talking to everyone who will listen and enlightening them to why I'm voting "NO".

 

[mat slinghoff]

I am glad to see that Mat and Ric have managed to screw every furloughed guy on the seniority list. Think about this: The pilots that are on the property right now, that are being paid as Captains but technically could not hold that seat, will receive not only 2 months of retro pay but also Captain pay and increases throughout the contract. However if a furloughed captain is brought back before Jan 2011 he will get only 10% more than he was making before furloughed then will be frozen till FO pay catches up to your current pay.(which will never happen) These are the red circled guys. And if a furloughed capt is brought after Jan 2011 guess what? Frozen at your current pay till fo pay catches up. Could this be because Rick Maluda and some of the other union reps technically could not hold a Capt position?(based on seniority). Nice to see that they have built provisions in this contract to benefit their individual needs with no regard to the many furloughed pilots that have paid their dues, sacrificed their careers, homes and family in support of the union.

Why don’t you pick up the phone and call me or post your accusations on the Union’s message board? Are you afraid to confront me directly? Maybe it’s because you know your libelous statements couldn’t stand exposure to the light of day, outside the haven for cowards that this forum has become?

The facts are these: Typically, in our industry, when pilots are recalled they return at the pay scale in effect at the time of recall. In our case, returning former captains will be “red-circled” at their old captain pay, which is higher than the new F/O Primary Salary for their longevity, since recalled pilots will be returned to work at Flight Options as F/Os until they can bid and be awarded an upgrade. As a consequence, some returning former captains may not see a pay raise during the life of this contract because their old pay is “above the line,” while others may, depending on the circumstances. On the other hand, recalled F/Os, whose seat-time at the time of furlough was less that their company longevity, may see significant pay raises, depending on the spread between those two parameters.

The industry standard is you get paid for the position you can hold. The fact we were able to negotiate pay for pilots who may be recalled after January 2011 at their old salary, or the new the rate established by the new salary table, whichever is greater, is, in and of itself, quite extraordinary. In addition, we reset the time limit on the furloughed pilots right to recall to 7-years from the effective date of the agreement. This was done to give furloughed pilots more time to be recalled.

Also, given the fact furloughed pilots are currently earning $0,00--nothing--nada—zilch—at Flight Options because they are on the street, when they come back, even if they are paid only at their old salary, and regardless of the 10% raise for some, or the new F/O salary table, or whether they were once Captains or F/Os, or any other burr in this TA you may have under your saddle, regaining their old salary represents a pay raise of tens of thousands of dollars (anywhere from $60,000 to $70,000) for returning pilots. It is a raise for each and every one of them over what they are earning today, to say nothing of the health care, and vacations, etc., etc., this TA provides. We had to balance the risk of increasing the company’s expense of recalling pilots against taking care of them when they do come back. We felt that markedly increasing the cost of recalls to the company could slow, or even jeopardize their eventual return.

Finally, it was the company that insisted that the surplus captains (including Rick Maluda) should continue to be paid as captains, essentially for work they are no-longer performing. For you to question the motives of Rick Maluda, a man with more honor and integrity in the end of his little finger that most of the anonymous bomb-throwing cowards on this message board will ever possess, speaks volumes. You have no right to besmirch this man’s character. Rick stood up to help organize our Union when others, probably you included, hid in fear from management retribution. Rick has sacrificed over three years of his time, away from the flying he loves, to help negotiate a contract for you. To his own potential financial detriment (he would have been red-circled as a F/O), Rick Maluda took a stand against the companies desire to pay surplus captains a higher salary that is unrelated to their current flying status and duties as F/Os, because he felt it was not fair to the other pilots with seniority to hold the captain position who were being underpaid for doing their jobs. We lost that one, because the company was adamantly against doing what Rick and the Union advocated.

If you think you can do it better than we did, there is an election coming up in the fall, you can run for office and I’ll expect to see your name on the ballot. Oh, I forgot. You don’t want anyone to know who you are. Makes it kind of tough to run for anything other than for cover, doesn’t it?

 

[FR8DOG777]

I've seen more organized ******************** fights between monkeys at the zoo! I just lost quite a bit of respect for you on that one. Close the whole gdamn business down, the rich pricks we fly can take the bus for all I care. That scathing reply was towards a union supporter with a very legitimate concern. Why don't you tell him how long its going to be before recall with a crewing ratio of 4.0 pilots and the 16+2 schedule? Pay attention to the signs. Do you know what our charter was this week? We can outlast these guys and increase our leverage. For the pay you guys negotiated there is no reason we couldn't all have been on a 7 and 7 and get those guys back quicker. Strike without striking. The media pressure for this thing failing, peak travel season, the phenoms arriving, no flights above 350 till an adequate ta is achieved. Use some ingenuity. Some guys think this job is going to magically be better after a ta. It is going to be the same sh$t job working 14 hour day after 14 hour day, flying 500 hours a year for less than a charter pilot. As far as the coward paraphrase posting on this board that is a pretty damn harsh berating wothout all the facts. We have migs and non migs posting here all the time. In case you forgot people have been fired for voicing their opinions on your touchy feely feel good board. I'd get the facts straight before you make an accusation like that.

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

FR8DOG777-

If you don't like the company, the "rich pricks", or the TA, there's a door waiting for you. But I'll be d***** before I stand quietly by while you suggest we start "closing the whole gd business down."

Did you run for an elected union position? Were you seated at the negotiating table? Were you privy to the hundreds of hours of discussion between management and the negotiators? Were you in on the thousands of hours discussing the merits of each section's proposals and counter-proposals? Did you review the auditors report on the financial status and health of the company?

As a MIG, you have every right to vote on the TA. As a fellow colleague and pilot, you've crossed the line by questioning the integrity of the union representatives and you have no right to even suggest illegal job actions or closing the business down!

 

[myrealnameis]

Notice it did not deny the accusation.

B-19 for sure. And it would like nothing more than to tank our deal. Wouldn't want the Avantair boys to get any ideas.

Avantair boys and girls getting any ideas?? Are you kidding me? This is a complete pile of ********************!