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FLOPS Impass?

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Actually, I don't think the company is saying that they would like to give us a raise, but the union....B.S. They are now saying they can barely pay us much more than they are already paying us now B.S. That kind of talking only pisses more pilots off, causing disgruntled pilots to be less than eager to go the extra mile, which in turn causes our passengers to take there business somewhere else. I just wish that M.S. would grow up and just learn that you can't run a service business for the wealthy like this.

How much business has been lost by disserviced passengers taking their business elsewhere? I'll bet it is more than what our pay raises would have cost.
 
I thought perhaps it was more the problem of planes not flying for lack of pilots? From a pax perspective, you need to know the plane will be ready to go when you are; obviously, that includes having an experienced flight crew. What I wonder is how much money is being wasted training pilots only to lose them when they get fed-up with being overworked and underpaid. Smart managers know it's more efficient and better for morale to keep the work force you already have.

As for the claim of not being able to pay pilots properly....:rolleyes: That's the typical management FUD that is just an excuse for not wanting to pay decent wages. Labor is a cost of doing business so upper management can just do their job and figure out a budget that includes the going rate. It's time for the FLOPS to pay up or fall flat on their face. Balancing the budget on the backs of the pilotgroup is no longer an option.
 
Whether Flops can pay or not is unknown to me and I have no way of knowing or not unless I can see the books. What is apparent though is that we are losing the clientelle that can afford to pay, because of the worsening condition of our fleet? Is the company really this poor or they just don't understand. Cheap paint jobs that look like crap within a year. Most of the aircraft look absolutely terrible and Mr Millionair doesn't like pulling up on the ramp in that! Flops has gotten (maybe out of desperation to keep planes in the air) to a point that they absolutely refuse to fix anything. Most passenger convenience items never get fixed, just slapped on the NEF. Telephones, airshows... most of the galley doors get stuck.. can't open in flight.. even lav doors... NEF it! Doesn't matter to the pax ? MS doesn't care or is he too stupid? Maybe the company just want's to look poor. Either way I don't care. Pay and play withe the industry or shut the doors on this place. That is the message. :mad:

HS
 
netjetwife said:
Balancing the budget on the backs of the pilotgroup is no longer an option.
Click to expand...

Risking the entire company and disrupting the careers of all the employees at Flight Options was a risk the 66% of the pilots undertook when they voted in the union.

New unions always incur 3 or more years of a stagnant organization, ongoing turmoil and the union not reacting when the pressure is on.

Right now, the pressure is on. The economy is weaking and the pilot group is clearly unhappy. 1108 isn't getting it done. 1108 is to blame. As the intruder, 1108 has to be willing to do something to move things along. Until then, it's status quo and it will be for long time. Management doesn't have to do anything.

Management has a company to run. 1108 are the intruders, and the company has hunkered down, just like they did at NJ when they stopped hiring and began chartering.

You wanted a union, you got it. There are no mysteries here, as all normal. You don't bring a union onto the property, snap your fingers and think it's gonna get all better.

FLOPS pilots need to stop whining, and turn to their leadership. Don't get on management, get on the 1108 leadership. They are the hired guns here, management is just doing what they do as expected.

NJW, you do not understand the reality of what unions to to employees and certainly don't understand how the budget is created.

If you did, you never would have made the following quote:
 
I too agree. Pay us industry standard wages, or just shut the door.

If our current management is too inexperienced to figure out how to run a competitive company with out the subsidy of the pilots getting paid 50% less than their peers, then just tell us, and give us a time-line as to when the doors will be closed.

I don't want to be out of a job just as much as the next guy. But by the same token, don't wast my time, I am tired of subsidizing our kindergarten management with their inexperience and not getting a fair salary. Don't wast any of our time, let us know now you can't do the job.

Industry standard wages, or just do us all a favor and shut the doors!
 
Frac Cap said:
I too agree. Pay us industry standard wages, or just shut the door.

If our current management is too inexperienced to figure out how to run a competitive company with out the subsidy of the pilots getting paid 50% less than their peers, then just tell us, and give us a time-line as to when the doors will be closed.

I don't want to be out of a job just as much as the next guy. But by the same token, don't wast my time, I am tired of subsidizing our kindergarten management with their inexperience and not getting a fair salary. Don't wast any of our time, let us know now you can't do the job.

Industry standard wages, or just do us all a favor and shut the doors!
Click to expand...

Another pilot with fear of taking command of his own career.
 
During contract negotiations managers typically try to hide the books and cries of "we're broke" are common. Regardless, other frac managers are able to pay fair wages and run the business so the fault must belong to the FLOPS. HIG should give MS the boot!

Using the ignore function selectively is like muting commercials when you're watching TV.
 
netjetwife said:
During contract negotiations managers typically try to hide the books and cries of "we're broke" are common. Regardless, other frac managers are able to pay fair wages and run the business so the fault must belong to the FLOPS. HIG should give MS the boot!

Using the ignore function selectively is like muting commercials when you're watching TV.
Click to expand...

Two years and counting of utter turmoil at FLOPS, the economy is slumping and 1108 is doing nothing but playing with the teamsters.

1108 is typical union, go after the money and forget that the main focus is to protect your brethren.

Remember, it was NJW that stated:
 
I am on Board with that..SHUT THE DOORS!!!
Bottom line is we are all proffesionals and will move on to better jobs..alot have already and the rest of us are in the process or should be at least..We will find a good job..
However with Sh*tfinger, Babbo, and Babbling Bobs record there gonna be hard press to find work anywhere. They have all been fired once before from there previous jobs. And Flops repution in the industry is well known as is all theres.. I could care less if Flops closes tomorrow. Probably be the best thing that could ever happen in the lives of 500 pilots
 
Well, I for one would like you all to succeed. I'd hate to have another defunct company on my resume.

That being said, I'd rather it not come at the expense of the pilots and the rest of the employees that have given and given to see the company succeed.

Keep the faith!
 
The FLOPS remind me of used car salesmen. I think you guys will agree that the analogy fits. It's like this: Over at FLOPS, run by the infamous Shyster Sheeringa, they're trying to push a lemon off on the pilots because they've underestimated their will to push back and their determination to get a fair deal. The pilots are showing the salesmen that they have come to the lot as fully informed buyers and they aren't giving up their hard-earned experience and skill without a good exchange for its value. When the pilots keep standing there sternly pointing out the flaws in the lemon and quoting the going rate, the used car salesmen will wise up and show them the good cars in the back....or watch the pilots go off to another lot where they will be treated right and get a fair deal. After all, the pilots have to have reliable secure "transportation" for themselves and their families.

I think the "car salesmen" need to make the sell. Sure they lined up other buyers foolish enough to take their lemons, but word on the street is that the deal fell apart when the low-credit buyers couldn't get checked out. They also have the problem of a bad reputation to deal with. Too many pilots have been ripped off exchanging their professional skills for a lemon. Those pilots told their friends and neighbors and now potential buyers are going to the other car lots across town.

Reality is dawning and the message is beginning to sink in that ripping people off doesn't really save money. It just ruins a business. The FLOPS can't help but notice that across town business is booming where they're dealing with the pilots fairly and respectfully. It's up to the FLOPS to run their place according to established industry standards or watch it fall to pieces around them. That responsibility belongs to management. The pilots have their own financial obligations and many have families to support. They can't waste time and lose money on shysters like MS. If the FLOPS manager cares about the business he'll follow the lead of his successful peers in the industry.
 
Wtf

B19,
FLOPS is so poor, yet they keep hiring VP's ever other week. What a joke! Maybe you should ask all those non-union employees how they feel about it! I am waiting for the VP of Bull$hit....oh wait thats your title!
INDUSTRY STANDARD CONTRACT or SHUT THE DOORS!
 
I agree with shutting the doors. It was FLOPS mgt that drove us to the current position the company is in. The reputation in the industry is a joke. The aircraft is in such a horrible condition we are the biggest joke on the ramp. The company can not attract or retain quality experienced pilots. The company morale is at an all time low.
It is now up to HIG and the current or the new incoming mgt to fix the problems. The fix starts with a CONTRACT. Then HIG can fix the airplanes correctly and deploy a huge marketing campain to get FLOPS back in the game. They will look back on this and realize what a waste of time and money it was to fight this thing. Ford and Harrison-what a waste of money.
Uncle Warren said the fraction industry has seen and continues to see exceptional growth-even in this downturned economy. The other fracs all seem to be forecasting growth but MS only has a shrinking morket share to show for his lame work here.
If FLOPS shut down today it would be the best thing for the 500 remaining pilots-we could all move on to jobs that are better pay and conditions with the pride of knowing we stood up for what was right. The other fracs and charter departments would grow almost overnight. As for the non pilot group at FLOPS-if they lost their jobs-I would feel sorry for them but any group is able to vote in a union. They could even put pressure on the mgt to settle this contract but instead they crumbled to them and try to inflict the scheduling pain that they were instructed to do. If they chose to be an at will employee then so be it take what you asked for.
CONTRACT NOW or CLOSE the DOORS NOW!
 
Last edited:
cougar12 said:
B19,
FLOPS is so poor, yet they keep hiring VP's ever other week. What a joke! Maybe you should ask all those non-union employees how they feel about it! I am waiting for the VP of Bull$hit....oh wait thats your title!
INDUSTRY STANDARD CONTRACT or SHUT THE DOORS!
Click to expand...


I sent in my application for the VP of Standby Operations to the higher plane address but it was replied with "Not Accepted".
 
netjetwife said:
The FLOPS remind me of used car salesmen. I think you guys will agree that the analogy fits. It's like this: Over at FLOPS, run by the infamous Shyster Sheeringa, they're trying to push a lemon off on the pilots because they've underestimated their will to push back and their determination to get a fair deal. The pilots are showing the salesmen that they have come to the lot as fully informed buyers and they aren't giving up their hard-earned experience and skill without a good exchange for its value. When the pilots keep standing there sternly pointing out the flaws in the lemon and quoting the going rate, the used car salesmen will wise up and show them the good cars in the back....or watch the pilots go off to another lot where they will be treated right and get a fair deal. After all, the pilots have to have reliable secure "transportation" for themselves and their families.

I think the "car salesmen" need to make the sell. Sure they lined up other buyers foolish enough to take their lemons, but word on the street is that the deal fell apart when the low-credit buyers couldn't get checked out. They also have the problem of a bad reputation to deal with. Too many pilots have been ripped off exchanging their professional skills for a lemon. Those pilots told their friends and neighbors and now potential buyers are going to the other car lots across town.

Reality is dawning and the message is beginning to sink in that ripping people off doesn't really save money. It just ruins a business. The FLOPS can't help but notice that across town business is booming where they're dealing with the pilots fairly and respectfully. It's up to the FLOPS to run their place according to established industry standards or watch it fall to pieces around them. That responsibility belongs to management. The pilots have their own financial obligations and many have families to support. They can't waste time and lose money on shysters like MS. If the FLOPS manager cares about the business he'll follow the lead of his successful peers in the industry.
Click to expand...

Huh? You don't get it do you?

NJ didn't hire and was stagnant and losing money during negotiations, this is normal and you are trying to make it seem like it isn't.

How much is the union paying your husband for you to produce this careless and disrespectful drivel?

How many more embarrassing lines like the one below are you going to write?:
 
VP of hireing VP's

Galaxy said:
I sent in my application for the VP of Standby Operations to the higher plane address but it was replied with "Not Accepted".
Click to expand...

I want to be apply for a new VP positions, VP of hiring VP's. That seems to be the only growing segment of Floptions. It looks that such a position might be the only one with at least short term security.:laugh:
 
Bob-soon you will be gone-your job will still be there but someone else will be doing it. I hear Boisture is looking for friends. Call him up then come back and post your boo hoo story of how another union made you lose your job.
Happy to be helping close the doors at FLOPS!
 
Isn't it funny that the number of pilots and aircraft shrunk almost 50% and the number of Vice Presidents at Flight Options grew by 50 %.

Maybe we should hire a VP to look into this?:D
 
Here's what happened, Jetwash....;) The FLOPS tried to put their heads together to solve the problem and discovered they were lacking the required brainpower. Their answer to just add more VPs is not the right one, but considering the source, it comes as no surprise.....:rolleyes: Those tempted to believe their FUD need to realize when companies are truly struggling financially they don't have the luxury of wasting money. Since the FLOPS are brainstorming ways to solve their self-induced crisis here are some suggestions to get them back on track. The biggest clue: INDUSTRY STANDARD

It has already been earned!
No more underpaying the pilots
Doing so much to build the business.
Unequivocally, their demands are justified.
Stop wielding the stick, bring out carrots.
Treat the Options pilots like professionals.
Realize that now is the time to settle it.
Your choice--pay right or lose pilots.

Start bargaining in good faith.
Try to see it from the pilots' side--
Admit that the going rate is only fair.
No more acting penny-wise, pound-foolish,
Dragging it out just makes matters worse.
Answers are out there--follow your rivals.
Racing to the bottom is only for losers.
Dare to be the best by paying right.
 
It is funny how the words of a pilots wife can upset the desk jockey, village idiot, Fud Spinner, Moron, FUD and Harrasment, Bob-whatever your name is...

I like ya NJW. I wish my wife was as involved as you are.
My family and I are ready for the final chaper.
Ending bad flying jobs one at a time.

A CONTRACT or CLOSING the DOORS!
 
This message is hidden because B19 Flyer is on your ignore list.
Click to expand...

Yeah, this is nice feature. Now, if only more people would do this and stop quoting him in their replies. There's only so much arguing you can do with an idiot before you start looking like one yourself...
 
Thanks Galaxy! The feeling is mutual...:) I consider you guys my virtual neighbors. My actual neighbors are nice people but they can't identify with frac issues like y'all do. I'm surprised more of the wives aren't as involved. I guess it's just my personality; I was a very involved AF wife, too, and I volunteer at my children's school.

Regarding ready for it to end, it's definitely time to finish hammering out the contract. The Options pilots and families have been quite patient. Enough already! The FLOPS won't be breaking new ground (which takes longer) all they have to do is follow the industry standard. They are doing that with all the other costs of doing business so they can just add professional pilot wages to the list.

On a related topic, (the analogy fits) stucco is popular in our area; we like the look and the fact it's low maintenance. I started checking it out last summer. Sure I wish it cost less, but I've talked to enough neighbors and done enough research to realize there's a going rate for getting a house stuccoed, especially by an experienced crew. The paint job is failing; I have to make a decision. Invest in stucco--or keep repainting. We're going to follow the lead of our neighbors and have our house done this summer. We decided that the value justifies the expense.

Likewise, the FLOPS have "neighbors" and enough available data to realize that there's a going rate for frac pilots. By now they should have reached the decision I have. When the structure is failing you have to make the investment that ensures its viability. You can go for lasting quality with curb appeal, or spend more over time as you keep replacing a worn out system that looks uninspired. You get what you pay for.
 
netjetwife said:
Thanks Galaxy! The feeling is mutual...:) I consider you guys my virtual neighbors. My actual neighbors are nice people but they can't identify with frac issues like y'all do. I'm surprised more of the wives aren't as involved. I guess it's just my personality; I was a very involved AF wife, too, and I volunteer at my children's school.

Regarding ready for it to end, it's definitely time to finish hammering out the contract. The Options pilots and families have been quite patient. Enough already! The FLOPS won't be breaking new ground (which takes longer) all they have to do is follow the industry standard. They are doing that with all the other costs of doing business so they can just add professional pilot wages to the list.

On a related topic, (the analogy fits) stucco is popular in our area; we like the look and the fact it's low maintenance. I started checking it out last summer. Sure I wish it cost less, but I've talked to enough neighbors and done enough research to realize there's a going rate for getting a house stuccoed, especially by an experienced crew. The paint job is failing; I have to make a decision. Invest in stucco--or keep repainting. We're going to follow the lead of our neighbors and have our house done this summer. We decided that the value justifies the expense.

Likewise, the FLOPS have "neighbors" and enough available data to realize that there's a going rate for frac pilots. By now they should have reached the decision I have. When the structure is failing you have to make the investment that ensures its viability. You can go for lasting quality with curb appeal, or spend more over time as you keep replacing a worn out system that looks uninspired. You get what you pay for.
Click to expand...

And I'm sure the going rate for my local brain surgeon is slightly higher than it is for the local general practitioner. I wouldn't expect my local practitioner to charge the higher price simply because he's a doctor.

Flight Options and NJ are two different operations and you seem to think the value is the same. It's not the same. Two different companies, two different balance sheets and two different mixes of fleets.

I'm certain when you get your estimate to fix your stucco, you will get different prices. It's not all one price.

Hamburgers are not the same price everywhere, cars are not the same price everywhere, as a matter of fact, nothing is the same price anywhere, yet by your thinking all pilots should be paid the same.

Go to your local car dealership and see if all is priced the same. Wrong.

You have no respect for the working people.
 
netjetwife said:
Here's what happened, Jetwash....;) The FLOPS tried to put their heads together to solve the problem and discovered they were lacking the required brainpower. Their answer to just add more VPs is not the right one, but considering the source, it comes as no surprise.....:rolleyes: Those tempted to believe their FUD need to realize when companies are truly struggling financially they don't have the luxury of wasting money. Since the FLOPS are brainstorming ways to solve their self-induced crisis here are some suggestions to get them back on track. The biggest clue: INDUSTRY STANDARD

It has already been earned!
No more underpaying the pilots
Doing so much to build the business.
Unequivocally, their demands are justified.
Stop wielding the stick, bring out carrots.
Treat the Options pilots like professionals.
Realize that now is the time to settle it.
Your choice--pay right or lose pilots.

Start bargaining in good faith.
Try to see it from the pilots' side--
Admit that the going rate is only fair.
No more acting penny-wise, pound-foolish,
Dragging it out just makes matters worse.
Answers are out there--follow your rivals.
Racing to the bottom is only for losers.
Dare to be the best by paying right.
Click to expand...

The value of anything is what somebody is willing to pay for it. It's clear that FLOPS doesn't want to match NJ wages, thus the best thing to do will be for all those pilots to flock over to NJ. (I'll bet NJ won't take all that want to go though!)

There is a fool born every minute (PT Barnum) and the FLOPS union supporters such as you are a fools to think that the union is going to help the company.
 
Just thinking out loud here...Wonder if theres a way Flops pilots could market themselves to all the Fractionals? Citation Shares,NJ,Flex,XO Jet..And Cause enough of a mass exodos to FLOPS that we actually shut the doors!! At least we would go on our terms and put Flops three Goons out of commission for good..I for one already have a emergency back up job. Just for the reason that I dont think this company is gonna survive anyway..To bad Flops pilots couldnt all set a date when there last day is and all quit on that day..It would solve Sh*tfingers problem of having to pay the pilots a industry standard wage...I am not talking a strike here..I am talking walking out and not coming back..And watch Flops crumble to the ground
 

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